Did Joseph Smith ever quote from the Book of Mormon?

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\ . . . Continued
We both have the testimony of the Holy Ghost that the disciples of Jesus spoke the truth when they wrote that He was God and He rose from the dead, but i also have the external evidence of the fact that these men were willing to lose their families, their wealth, their possessions, their comfort and their lives for what they believed, and reason tells me no one in his right mind would die for what he knows is a lie.
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First of all, you have no “external evidence” that all of that happened; secondly, similar stories can be found in the Book of Mormon; and more importantly, in the lives of the Latter-day Saints. Have you read the history of the Latter-day Saints, all the persecutions they suffered, and loss of property and lives, because of their faith? Go and study and learn, before asking such questions.
I’m looking for external evidence that the Book of Mormon is true so that i will know that the internal evidence of the conviction i might experience is actually the testimony of the Holy Ghost and not some deception. I’m not slinging mud; i’m trying to make the reason why i should believe clearer than mud.
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You won’t find any, because that is not how the Lord has decreed that the Book of Mormon shall be tested. The Book of Mormon is intended as a test of faith: “he that believethe shall be saved; and he that believeth not shall be damned”.

Let me add one more comment before I close; and after that I will not be answering any more of your questions until you come back and tell me that you have finished reading the whole of the Book of Mormon.

I believe that your inquires into Mormonism are sincere and genuine; but you have come to a strange place to make it. This is a Catholic website, not a Mormon one; and the place is full of Mormon apostates and anti-Mormons; and they are not going to like seeing you making honest inquires about Mormonism. It drives them mad! They are going to do everything they possibly can to turn you away from it, by every means possible. It is obvious that they have been getting at you behind the scenes, because these objections that you are now raising are typical anti-Mormon objections that have been raised millions of times, and answered millions of times. The answer to that is that I will not be answering any more of your questions until you come back and tell me that you have read the whole of the Book of Mormon, with a sincere heart, not listening to apostates and anti-Mormons, and prayed to the Lord in faith and sincerity if it is true. You will not be hearing anything further from me until you do that—and I mean it this time!

If you think that the anti-Mormons have the answer, go to them. Why do you come and ask me these questions? I am not here to fight an anti-Mormon war by proxy through you.

zerinus
 
zerinus said:
… Let me add one more comment before I close; and after that I will not be answering any more of your questions until you come back and tell me that you have finished reading the whole of the Book of Mormon.

I believe that your inquires into Mormonism are sincere and genuine; but you have come to a strange place to make it. This is a Catholic website, not a Mormon one; and the place is full of Mormon apostates and anti-Mormons; and they are not going to like seeing you making honest inquires about Mormonism. It drives them mad! They are going to do everything they possibly can to turn you away from it, by every means possible. It is obvious that they have been getting at you behind the scenes, because these objections that you are now raising are typical anti-Mormon objections that have been raised millions of times, and answered millions of times. The answer to that is that I will not be answering any more of your questions until you come back and tell me that you have read the whole of the Book of Mormon, with a sincere heart, not listening to apostates and anti-Mormons, and prayed to the Lord in faith and sincerity if it is true. You will not be hearing anything further from me until you do that—and I mean it this time!

If you think that the anti-Mormons have the answer, go to them. Why do you come and ask me these questions? I am not here to fight an anti-Mormon war by proxy through you.

zerinus
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But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.*(1 Peter 3:15)*Zer:

Please remember that you told me you would answer my questions as i read the Book of Mormon, and not require me to read the entire book without anyone to help me understand. All that you required is that i sincerely seek the truth, and you have more than once commented that you did not doubt my sincerity. I’m telling you the truth that i’m still seeking the truth. If you are now not willing to answer my questions, please ask yourself why and ask Christ our Lord if refusing to give me answers is what He wants you to do. If you were willing to answer my questions, i’d ask the same of you that Jesus asked of His accuser:

Jesus answered him, If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil: but if well, why smitest thou me?*(John 18:23)*You are correct in saying i have received private messages. Two people who have been reading our discussion sent such messages to me. My response to both was that i was not trying to talk you out of your beliefs but seeking the truth for myself. One suggested that i send a private message to an ex-Mormon, but i refused to do so. Both stopped sending private messages to me .

Yes, i understand that there are non-Latter Day Saints here who feel it is their obligation to save me from Mormonism. I understand your frustration in having them gang up on you. I’ve suffered the same in the Apologetics forum (though i think i enjoyed the discussion more than you). If you really think about it, i’ve often taken your side and defended you against the accusations of others. Yes, they may have asked you the questions a million times before, but i have not asked them. Ask God if it is a sin for me to ask questions of you in my search for the truth.

And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.*(Galatians 6:9)*Yes, i think anti-Mormons might have the answer, and i also think Mormons might have the answer. I’m seeking the truth, not trying to defend it. The Truth can defend Himself. I just need to discover the best way to know Him.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.*(John 14:6)*I’d ask you why this forum is not the place to discover the truth, but i understand you do not wish to speak to me again. By asking me to not ask questions, you are asking me to never speak to you again, for i do not wish to debate with you, i only want to learn from you, and see whether what you say is true. Out of respect for you i will not ask your opinion again.

If you know of a Mormon who is willing to answer my questions, i’d be interested in speaking to him here at this forum. You may tell him that i’d be willing to speak with him via private messages if he finds speaking to Catholics offensive.

I have no hard feelings toward you, Zer, only disappointment. I shall pray for you, and i hope you will do the same for me, even though you think i’m your enemy.

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.(Matthew 5:43-45)
 
zerinus said:
It is not “subjective”. The testimony of the Holy Ghost is as “objective” as it could be. But it is intended exclusively for the recipient.
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The testimony of the Holy Spirit may be objective, but your testimony of what you think is the Holy Spirit IS subjective. I, and others on this thread, are no more inclined to believe you simply because you say you “know” the Holy Spirit told you the BOM is true.
He did give us everything; but after the Apostasy it was lost. We know that the Apostasy occurred because we know that the Church was no longer led by revelation, as it was led in the beginning by the Apostles. The priesthood authority was lost.
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Again, this is your subjective belief. You can provide no proof for it.
No need to. Once you know something, you know it, and you don’t need to inquire about it. That is a stupid thing to do, to inquire about something that you already know.
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zerinus
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And here is all we need to know about you. This is the most disingenuous thing you have yet posted. You simply refuse to take the “test of faith” you ask everyone else to take with regard to the BOM.

You say we shouldn’t listen to EX-Mormons because they are just slandering the LDS. Where did you get your “knowledge” that the Church apostatized. All you have to go on is that you believe (know) it. Why? Becaue the Holy Spirit said so? Or because that’s what the Mormon church teaches?

Take the challenge, Zerinus. If, as you say, the BOM is true, you have nothing to fear. Study the Early Church fathers, and pray to have the truth revealed. If you’re correct to begin with, what could it hurt to have your knowledge confirmed??
 
Socrates4Jesus said:
Please remember that you told me you would answer my questions as i read the Book of Mormon, and not require me to read the entire book without anyone to help me understand.
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First of all, I am not your enemy. Don’t be so daft!

Secondly, I had figured that they would have tried to contact you behind the scenes. Well that is not my way. This is a public board, and all my discussions are going to be public. I am not going to use the private messaging system to try to convert people by sleight of hand. If anti-Mormons have disagreements with what I post, they have the opportunity to reply. I am not like them, hiding behind PMs, and trying to influence things behind the scenes.

Thirdly, if you are interested in talking to other Mormons beside me, your first port of call should be to talk to the missionaries. If that does not answer your questions, you can attend your local LDS ward, get to know the members, attend the classes, and then find someone whom you think is knowledgeable enough and discuss your questions with them.

If you are interested in discussing the gospel with other Mormons on the Internet, there are Mormon discussion boards where you are likely to meet more Mormons than you will find here. Here are a couple which I know of:

mormonapologetics.org/
mormondiscussions.com/discuss/

There may be more that I am not familiar with. But I don’t normally post in those places because I find Mormons debating with Mormons boring! If you want me to discuss things with you privately or by email, I don’t mind doing that either; but not until you have read the Book of Mormon!

And finally, I stand by what I said! I will not answer any more of your questions until you come back and tell me that you have read the Book of Mormon! You are an intelligent person and can read. How long will it take you to read the Book of Mormon? If you managed to read the Bible, you can read the Book of Mormon. That is a lot easier! If you put your mind to it, it shouldn’t take you more than a week or two to read it; otherwise I can see that we won’t get anywhere. You will keep coming back to me and asking me how I know that the Book of Mormon is true, and we won’t get beyond that.

If you want to ask me specific questions abut the Book of Mormon, ask them after you have read the book. Get yourself a little notebook, and jot down your questions as you read the book. You will find that many of your questions will be answered as you read the book. If you have any unanswered questions left after you have finished reading the book, come back to me and we will talk about them.

zerinus
 
zerinus said:
First of all, I am not your enemy. Don’t be so daft!

Secondly, I had figured that they would have tried to contact you behind the scenes. Well that is not my way. This is a public board, and all my discussions are going to be public. I am not going to use the private messaging system to try to convert people by sleight of hand. If anti-Mormons have disagreements with what I post, they have the opportunity to reply. I am not like them, hiding behind PMs, and trying to influence things behind the scenes.
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shhh, don’t anyone tell zerinus that us mormon “apostates” have a CAF Strategy Planning meeting every Monday night at 7PM.*

Oh. Hi zerinus. May I point out that you have silenced those who disagree with you via the “block user” function of this forum. Making it sort of hard to “discuss”.
 
And making it very difficult for Z to learn anything. This is how he persists on passing out the same tripe month after month, without changing in any respect. And without respect.
 
RebeccaJ said:
shhh, don’t anyone tell zerinus that us mormon “apostates” have a CAF Strategy Planning meeting every Monday night at 7PM.*

Oh. Hi zerinus. May I point out that you have silenced those who disagree with you via the “block user” function of this forum. Making it sort of hard to “discuss”.
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How do you have a quality discussion with a person who knows what he knows, and refuses any challenge to what he “knows”??
 
MHalsey said:
Take the challenge, Zerinus. If, as you say, the BOM is true, you have nothing to fear. Study the Early Church fathers, and pray to have the truth revealed. If you’re correct to begin with, what could it hurt to have your knowledge confirmed??
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I already have; and they tell me that Mormonism is true! 😃

Have a look at these couple of blog posts, and you will get the idea:

zerinus.blogspot.com/2007/07/deification-of-man-and-plurality-of.html
zerinus.blogspot.com/2007/07/more-on-deification-in-early.html

zerinus 😛
 
zerinus said:
I already have; and they tell me that Mormonism is true! 😃

Have a look at these couple of blog posts, and you will get the idea:

zerinus.blogspot.com/2007/07/deification-of-man-and-plurality-of.html
zerinus.blogspot.com/2007/07/more-on-deification-in-early.html

zerinus 😛
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That’s funny, based on your previous post, you said you didn’t need to. Implying you hadn’t. Now you’re saying you did. So forget your blog. Post it here your proof for the Church apostasy.
 
zerinus said:
If you are interested in discussing the gospel with other Mormons on the Internet, there are Mormon discussion boards where you are likely to meet more Mormons than you will find here. Here are a couple which I know of:

mormonapologetics.org/
mormondiscussions.com/discuss/

zerinus
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Mormondiscussions is not a ‘mormon’ board. It is mainly made up of people who have left the lds church. However, there are also active lds members on that board too. But it is not a place to have a nice discussion about the lds church. However, mormonapologetics could be the place for socrates.

I would recommend www.ldsforums.net for soc and also for you Zerinus.
 
zerinus said:
I already have; and they tell me that Mormonism is true! 😃

Have a look at these couple of blog posts, and you will get the idea:

zerinus.blogspot.com/2007/07/deification-of-man-and-plurality-of.html
zerinus.blogspot.com/2007/07/more-on-deification-in-early.html

zerinus 😛
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Interesting Zerinus,

If you’ve read the Church Fathers and they have attested to you that the Mormon church is the true church, then why doesn’t the Mormon church teach that the “substance” of bread and wine truly becomes the “substance” of Jesus… the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ himself?

There was no confusion among the early Church as to the nature of the Eucharist. I suggest reading Ireneaus… he understood very well what the Holy Eucharist.

RAR
 
zerinus said:
I already have; and they tell me that Mormonism is true! 😃

Have a look at these couple of blog posts, and you will get the idea:

zerinus.blogspot.com/2007/07/deification-of-man-and-plurality-of.html
zerinus.blogspot.com/2007/07/more-on-deification-in-early.html

zerinus 😛
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Based on your blog, it seems you didn’t do the research yourself. You based it on some other article. What your blog says to me is that you looked through them to find passages that fit your preconceived notion that the ECFs actually believe we become gods, (even though never once is God pluralized in any of the quotes you referenced.) That doesn’t cut it.

The challenge to you was, read the writings of the early church fathers in sincerity and prayer. All of them. Don’t rely on an anti-Catholic person’s interpretation.
 
What the ECFs discuss in the passages Z. quotes is indeed the concept of deification, or theosis. Z. is correct is that regard. The promise of Christ is that through him we will be adopted as sons and daughters of God and made wholly in His image, as perfect and holy, immortal beings united in perfect harmony with God and with each other - gods in the small “g” sense. Just as Christ took on our humanness, through Him we will take on his godliness. That is the doctrine propounded by the ECFs. Joseph Smith went further, however, and expanded this true teaching into something speculative and unscriptural (a place the ECFs did not go). The LDS conception of theosis is that not only will we be made like God in holiness through our adoption into His family, we will also be made like Him in power, might, majesty, glory, and purpose. In other words, we will become Creators in our own right, with our own worlds populated with our own spirit children who will worship us and call us Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother. As we are glorified, our glory further glorifies our God. In turn, our own defied, creator sons and daughters will glorify us and their deified creator children will glorify them and so forth ad infinitum. That is the LDS concept of theosis. Although the notion of us as gods in the small ‘g’ sense is scriptural and was taught by the ECFs, the idea that we will inherit God’s power and become creators of worlds and worshiped big “g” Gods in our own right is unscriptural. And Z will not find evidence for that “innovation” of Joseph Smith’s in the writings of the ECFs - because there is none.

There is only one eternal God in heaven, who always was God, always will be God, and never was a mere mortal man living on a planet like us. That is another of Joseph Smith’s innovations that is unscriptural.
 
NewSeeker said:
… In turn, our own defied, creator sons and daughters will glorify us and their deified creator children will glorify them and so forth ad -]infinitum/-] nauseum…
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Well put. Just a small edit. 😛 Just the thought of elevating oneself to the level of God makes me nauseous.
 
why_me said:
Mormondiscussions is not a ‘mormon’ board. It is mainly made up of people who have left the lds church. However, there are also active lds members on that board too. But it is not a place to have a nice discussion about the lds church. However, mormonapologetics could be the place for socrates.

I would recommend www.ldsforums.net for soc and also for you Zerinus.
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Thank you why me. As you can see, I am not familiar with these websites. I have never posted on them, and I hardly ever visit them. I think it is more fun to debate on non-LDS websites! 😃

zerinus
 
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