Did Juan Diego even exist?

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catholic1seeks said:
If he didn’t, then he’s not really a saint. If he’s not really a saint, then the Church was wrong about canonizing him. And if that’s the case, the Church wasn’t infallible, and if that’s the case…

You see why this is important.

Please see this article
thefreelibrary.com/DID+JUAN+DIEGO+EXIST%3F+Questions+on+the+eve+of+canonization-a087869035

How do we know he even existed?
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Proving he didnt exist will be far more difficult than proving he did…😉
 
I remember researching this myself. It is inconclusive to say either way, and I doubt any of us has a historical insight that hasn’t already been discussed. 🤷

I am interested to read how this may or may not affect the “integrity,” as it were, of the Church.
 
Windfish said:
I remember researching this myself. It is inconclusive to say either way, and I doubt any of us has a historical insight that hasn’t already been discussed. 🤷

I am interested to read how this may or may not affect the “integrity,” as it were, of the Church.
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And the thing is I used to love the tilma. I’ve always heard from different Catholic sources that the tilma is miraculous and that scientific studies have proven so. But even Wikipedia says differently, and says that the image has three layers of different images.

To put it bluntly, this seriously makes a great difficulty for my faith.
 
Philthy said:
Proving he didnt exist will be far more difficult than proving he did…😉
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Ooooh. Now that’s not a very good answer, though.

I thought the Church was so official, and didn’t announce things unless they are certain (in things dealing with apparitions and miracles and such)

This doesn’t sound so certain.

The thing is, I was just bored and so looked up info on the tilma and Juan Diego…just because I was curious. And I end up finding out there’s not much historical info dealing with him, and the story as we have it today originates about 100 years after his life. This makes me wonder how many other instances there are like his dealing with other saints and such.

Of course the main concern is that the Church is supposed to be infallible during canonization.

EDIT:
**This sounds like a Catholic Answers Live question for Jimmy Akin. Anyone willing to ask? lol
 
catholic1seeks said:
And the thing is I used to love the tilma. I’ve always heard from different Catholic sources that the tilma is miraculous and that scientific studies have proven so. But even Wikipedia says differently, and says that the image has three layers of different images.

To put it bluntly, this seriously makes a great difficulty for my faith.
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I would research the matter more closely if you feel so strongly. In fact, I might just do that myself. I’m betting there have been many studies done, and even in the Wiki article, a few contradicted and overturned each other.

A few posters on this board, I think, are very knowledgeable on the tilma. Hopefully, they’ll chime in.

I honestly don’t know what implications, if any, any of this has on anything. 🤷
 
The tilma is legitimate. Please check more reliable sources than wikipedia. The tilma has been examined by experts and their findings are very interesting. That it is even still in existence is a miracle, as sackcloth usually disintegrates in 50 or so years.

I was never very fond of the images I had seen until I saw the travelling image at a retreat. It was a shock to me to see how beautiful Mary was/is on this reproduction of the original (think it was done by photography, but not sure). Later, my husband and I went to Mexico and I was able to view the actual tilma. While there I bought a copy of just Mary’s face. It hangs in my dining room. It exudes a quiet, humble beauty. The most amazing thing to me is that her face seems to encompass all nationalities - indian, oriental, black, caucasian…
 
Nita said:
The tilma is legitimate. Please check more reliable sources than wikipedia. The tilma has been examined by experts and their findings are very interesting.

I was never very fond of the images I had seen until I saw the travelling image at a retreat. It was a shock to me to see how beautiful Mary was/is on a reproduction (think it was done by photography) of the original. Later, my husband and I went to Mexico and I was able to view the actual tilma. While there I bought a copy of just Mary’s face. It hangs in my dining room. It exudes a quiet, humble beauty. The most amazing thing to me is that her face seems to encompass all nationalities - indian, oriental, black, caucasian…
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I would love to read more, if you can recommend your sources. This thread has caused me to read a few Amazon reviews on books on OLG, and there’s definitely more to the studies than what the Wiki article suggests.
 
catholic1seeks said:
And the thing is I used to love the tilma. I’ve always heard from different Catholic sources that the tilma is miraculous and that scientific studies have proven so. But even Wikipedia says differently, and says that the image has three layers of different images.

To put it bluntly, this seriously makes a great difficulty for my faith.
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Is your faith so fragile that a few naysayers can sway you from the truth? Look, there will always be people that don’t believe that which they can not see. So what if the documentation on Juan Diego is non-existent in the 1500s? That doesn’t mean he didn’t exist. As for what wikipedia says, it seems there are conflicting views. and remember, anyone can write on wikipedia.

Do you blieve what the church teaches on faith and morals and the economy of salvation? That is what is really important
 
Our Lady of Guadalupe ‘completely beyond’ scientific explanation, says researcher

Phoenix, Ariz., Aug 7, 2009 / 04:10 pm (CNA).- Researcher and physicist Dr. Aldofo Orozco told participants at the International Marian Congress on Our Lady of Guadalupe that there is no scientific explanation for the 478 years of high quality-preservation of the Tilma or for the miracles that have occurred to ensure its preservation.
Dr. Orozco began his talk by confirming that the conservation of the Tilma, the cloak of St. Juan Diego on which Our Lady of Guadalupe appeared 478 years ago, “is completely beyond any scientific explanation.”
“All the cloths similar to the Tilma that have been placed in the salty and humid environment around the Basilica have lasted no more than ten years,” he explained. One painting of the miraculous image, created in 1789, was on display in a church near the basilica where the Tilma was placed. “This painting was made with the best techniques of its time, the copy was beautiful and made with a fabric very similar to that of the Tilma. Also, the image was protected with a glass since it was first placed there.”

more…
 
SCIENCE STUNNED BY VIRGIN OF GUADALUPE’S EYES

Engineer Sees a Reflection, Literally, From a Scene in 1531
ROME, JAN. 14, 2001 (ZENIT.org) .- Digital technology is giving new leads in understanding a phenomenon that continues to puzzle science: the mysterious eyes of the image of Virgin of Guadalupe.
The image, imprinted on the tilma of a 16th-century peasant, led millions of indigenous Indians in Mexico to convert to the Catholic faith. Last week in Rome, results of research into the famed image were discussed by engineer José Aste Tonsmann of the Mexican Center of Guadalupan Studies during a conference at the Pontifical Athenaeum Regina Apostolorum.
For over 20 years, this graduate of environmental systems engineering of Cornell University has studied the image of the Virgin left on the rough maguey fiber fabric of Juan Diego’s tilma. What intrigued Tonsmann the most were the eyes of the Virgin.
Though the dimensions are microscopic, the iris and the pupils of the image’s eyes have imprinted on them a highly detailed picture of at least 13 people, Tonsmann said. The same people are present in both the left and right eyes, in different proportions, as would happen when human eyes reflect the objects before them.
Tonsmann says he believes the reflection transmitted by the eyes of the Virgin of Guadalupe is the scene on Dec. 9, 1531, during which Juan Diego showed his tilma, with the image, to Bishop Juan de Zumárraga and others present in the room.
In his research, Tonsmann used a digital process used by satellites and space probes in transmitting visual information.

more…
 
I don’t know, Buffalo… I mean, what do YOU make of those sources? Don’t get me wrong, they may be perfectly legitimate, but they don’t give the impression of confidence.
 
catholic1seeks said:
If he didn’t, then he’s not really a saint. If he’s not really a saint, then the Church was wrong about canonizing him. And if that’s the case, the Church wasn’t infallible, and if that’s the case…

You see why this is important.

Please see this article
thefreelibrary.com/DID+JUAN+DIEGO+EXIST%3F+Questions+on+the+eve+of+canonization-a087869035

How do we know he even existed?
Click to expand...
vatican.va/news_services/liturgy/saints/ns_lit_doc_20020731_juan-diego_en.html
 
Windfish said:
I would love to read more, if you can recommend your sources. This thread has caused me to read a few Amazon reviews on books on OLG, and there’s definitely more to the studies than what the Wiki article suggests.
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Here are a couple of articles I found online:
motherofallpeoples.com/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=163
catholicnewsagency.com/news/our_lady_of_guadalupe_completely_beyond_scientific_explanation_says_researcher/

Also, a couple of books. I have the first book, “The Wonder of Guadalupe”, but its been quite a few years since I read it. Believe it includes some of the results of scientific testing.
I know I had at least one other one at one time, but didn’t see anything online that rang a bell; it could be out of print now. (I have a tendency to loan out or give away books after I’ve read them.)
I was unable to track down any book that centered solely on the scientific research done on the tilma; not sure if there is one.
The Wonder of Guadalupe: tanbooks.com/index.php/Wonder-of-Guadalupe

Mary of the Americas: albahouse.org/mary%20americas.htm
 
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