Did Juan Diego even exist?

  • Thread starter Thread starter catholic1seeks
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
If he didn’t, then he’s not really a saint. If he’s not really a saint, then the Church was wrong about canonizing him. And if that’s the case, the Church wasn’t infallible, and if that’s the case…
the feed I hear is that some Mexicans of European descent, who would be among the ruling class, have long discredited the story precisely because Juan Diego was an Indian, part of the history of cultural conflict in Mexico, and there evidently was a feeling that an indigenous person would a) not have been favored with such an apparition and/or b) could not be trusted to transmit the truth about it if he did.

source cited in OP is no more reliable than any of the other links in these and similar threads, no matter which “side” they are on. the popes however are reliable so if Juan Diego has been canonized he is a saint and he did exist and lead a virtuous life. if one’s faith depends on a website, or on a personage even a saint, or on a created object, even the tilma or the Shroud, and can be shaken by doubt cast on any of these, it is a weak faith indeed. Place your faith in Jesus Christ and all the rest will fall into place.
 
If he didn’t, then he’s not really a saint. If he’s not really a saint, then the Church was wrong about canonizing him. And if that’s the case, the Church wasn’t infallible, and if that’s the case…

You see why this is important.

Please see this article
thefreelibrary.com/DID+JUAN+DIEGO+EXIST%3F+Questions+on+the+eve+of+canonization-a087869035

How do we know he even existed?
Wouldn’t he have been mentioned in the records of the Bishop of that time? No one can explain why an image believed to be that Bishop appears in the Virgin’s eye on the Tilma. No one can explain that why 7 million Native Americans of South American communities completely converted to Catholicism from paganism in a very short time after the apparitions of the Virgin at Guadalupe. These appearances have been approved by the Church, although they are NOT of INFALLIBLE status. After all, someone had to carry the message and the Tilma to the Bishop. It could just as well have been St. Juan Diego. as anyone else, don’t you think? I think I would do some checking on this for yourself before you start doubting that miracles do happen.

From your source:

In response, apologists have fallen back on four counter-arguments. First, though there is no documentary evidence, there is a long-standing oral tradition dating back to the early sixteenth century. ( Much history is oral, including the oral history of the Native American Nations here in the US). Second, the image of the Virgin itself, in its miraculous preservation, is sufficient witness to the truth of the account. Third, Rome’s approval of the devotion, and especially the granting of a proper feast, Mass text, and office (in 1754 and 1894), are sufficient evidence of credibility. Fourth and finally, coming full circle, proponents claim that there is documentary proof. The most recent example is a document made public by the Spanish Jesuit Xavier Escalada, which purports to be a pictorial depiction of the apparitions dating from 1548.
 
Also consider going to the following links. The second one, especially, will give evidence of 16th century documentation both written, but especially oral among the Indians regarding the relevance of Gudalupe and St. Juan Diego in their lives.

youtube.com/watch?v=esER6WqsmHg&feature=related

ewtn.com/library/MARY/LADYGUAD.HTM

Partial document. For the full source go to the ewtn link.
Among the indigenous sources, the oral ones deserve mention. These are important in popular cultural traditions, such as the Mexican, that were mainly oral. An attentive 16th-century observer, the Jesuit, Fr José de Acosta (in his correspondence with the Mexican Jesuit, Fr Juan de Tovar) asked about the value of traditions and their oral transmission. A century later, the Mexican linguist, Luis Becerra Tanco, returned to the subject. The validity and reliability of this type of transmission are confirmed by modern researchers of the Nahuatl culture such as Miguel León Portilla (Miguel León Portilla, El destino de la palabra. De la oralidad y los glifos mesoamericanos a la escritura alfabética, FCE, Mexico City 1996, pp. 19-71). Some of these ancient “oral archives”, in the “Guadalupan” case became archives: the writings were processed and authenticated in the so-called Informaciones Jurídicas of 1666. The “oral archives” extant today can be found in the oral tradition of certain Indian populations that inhabit Central Mexico, such as the “Totonacas” or the “Otomis”. This type of source is especially important in cultures in which writing did not exist, that passed on their historical memories in traditions, songs, and in oral and poetic accounts that constitute proper “oral archives”. Furthermore, in our case, since we are dealing with a religious event, we must include the forms of cultural expression. One criterion for the interpretation of the documents collected aims at understanding the significance of their attribution by the society to which they belong. In our case, its variants and its specific Indian, mestizo and Spanish components should be taken into account.
During the 20th century, various authors published collections of bibliographies on Guadalupe (cf. G. Grijales - E. J. Burrus, Bibliografia Guadalupana [1531-19841, Guadalupan Bibliography [1531-19841, Washington 1986; 1049 titles are included in chronological order; and the collections of Héctor Rogel H. - Francisco Organista -Guadalupe Marín; E. de la Torre Villar - R. Navarro de Anda [1982]; E. Chávez Sánchez has collected 2206 titles on the subject of Guadalupe). The historian, Burrus, catalogues 25 documents for the 16th century alone, up to 1590. In the introduction he writes: “The attentive reader will easily perceive, by means of this bibliography, the abundance and variety of Guadalupan writings produced in the course of more than four and a half centuries: manuscripts starting in 1531 and, from 1610, printed documents. The manuscripts mentioned show plainly that the eminent Mexican historian, Joaquín Garcia lcazbalceta, was mistaken when he thought that there were no 16th century documents extant proving the historical event of the apparitions and the subsequent devotion to Our Lady of Guadalupe. Even if his assertion may have corresponded to the situation at the time when he was writing (1888), it cannot, of course, be reaffirmed today” (G. Grijales -E. J. Burrus, Bibliografia Guadalupana [1531-1984], Guadalupan Bibliography [1531-1984], Georgetown University Press, Washington 1986, p. VII. Burrus, E.J., discovered the oldest manuscript that has been passed down to us, El Nican Mopohua, in the Lennox Library, New York, USA. Manuscripts section, Guadalupan Monument
 
If he didn’t, then he’s not really a saint. If he’s not really a saint, then the Church was wrong about canonizing him. And if that’s the case, the Church wasn’t infallible, and if that’s the case…

You see why this is important.

Please see this article
thefreelibrary.com/DID+JUAN+DIEGO+EXIST%3F+Questions+on+the+eve+of+canonization-a087869035

How do we know he even existed?
Don’t you think the Church would have done plenty of thorough research before canonizing him? Don’t you think that if the Church somehow found out that he did not exist that he would not have been canonized?
 
From what I was always told, canonization is not infallible. Canonization is based upon available evidence and if more evidence comes out in the future that is contrary to what was originally thought, canonization can be overturned. I was under the impression that this had even happened a couple of times before.

If this is the case, then proving Juan Diego didn’t exist (a logical impossibility anyway) would just reverse his canonization.
 
From what I was always told, canonization is not infallible. Canonization is based upon available evidence and if more evidence comes out in the future that is contrary to what was originally thought, canonization can be overturned. I was under the impression that this had even happened a couple of times before.

If this is the case, then proving Juan Diego didn’t exist (a logical impossibility anyway) would just reverse his canonization.
That is not correct. Canonisation is an infallible declaration that the person canonized is in Heaven and Catholics are obliged to believe that.
 
I was not impressed with the article. It says the Catholic Church is dismissive of history. This is simply not so and only reveals a bias that colors the article. There will always be thought that seek to undermine the Church, even when not cause exists. Obviously there is no way to prove that a person did **not **exist.
 
If he didn’t, then he’s not really a saint. If he’s not really a saint, then the Church was wrong about canonizing him. And if that’s the case, the Church wasn’t infallible, and if that’s the case…

You see why this is important.

Please see this article
thefreelibrary.com/DID+JUAN+DIEGO+EXIST%3F+Questions+on+the+eve+of+canonization-a087869035

How do we know he even existed?
The Church does not claim that its canonisation process has always been infallible. A few years ago a number of dubious and legendary saints were removed or downgraded in the lists, for example St. George and Ss Barlaam and Josaphat. Those last two were from a Christianised version of the life of the Buddha – a nice gesture on the part of the Church 😉

rossum
 
That is not correct. Canonisation is an infallible declaration that the person canonized is in Heaven and Catholics are obliged to believe that.
I’ve been thinking about it a bit more, and I’ve only become more certain that canonization is not infallible. Do you know where you got the idea that it is? Like the catechism or something? Seems important for us to figure out, ya? 😛
 
The Church does not claim that its canonisation process has always been infallible. A few years ago a number of dubious and legendary saints were removed or downgraded in the lists, for example St. George and Ss Barlaam and Josaphat. Those last two were from a Christianised version of the life of the Buddha – a nice gesture on the part of the Church 😉

rossum
The saints that were removed were never canonized through the canonization process in which the Holy Father makes a proclaimation. They were made saints through popular acclaim.
 
The Church does not claim that its canonisation process has always been infallible. A few years ago a number of dubious and legendary saints were removed or downgraded in the lists, for example St. George and Ss Barlaam and Josaphat. Those last two were from a Christianised version of the life of the Buddha – a nice gesture on the part of the Church 😉

rossum
the aforementioned were not canonized. the formal procedure for canonization was put into place sometime in the middle ages. before that saints were honored locally through acclamation, or added to the Roman calendar because they were martyrs or had evidenced heroic virtue in their lifetimes, but there was not a process in place to verify miracles etc. So when saints were removed from the calendar it did not mean they were no longer recognized as saints, simply acknowledgment of what has always been known, that legend and fact were in many cases mixed in their stories and veneration. So the history of veneration of such figures as these does not shed any light on the infallibility or not of the formal process of canonization. Find some other examples.
 
And the thing is I used to love the tilma. I’ve always heard from different Catholic sources that the tilma is miraculous and that scientific studies have proven so. But even Wikipedia says differently, and says that the image has three layers of different images.

To put it bluntly, this seriously makes a great difficulty for my faith.
Wikipedia is not an infallible, nor Catholic source. I would question it’s authenticiy.
 
For your consideration, here is another article that calls into question the existence of Juan Diego and the authenticity of the tilma.

skeptoid.com/episodes/4201

ChadS
I have not read the article, but I am very familiar with the site. It is a frustrating site not because it debunks or disproves anything but because people link to it all the time as if it does debunk/disprove. I am not saying this doesn’t occur, here, but I thought I should give you guys the heads up that this is just your ordinary guy presenting a biased, skeptical point of view that plays up circumstantial theories in his favor.
 
St. Juan Diego didn’t exist? That’s a new one.
Don’t you think the Church would have done plenty of thorough research before canonizing him? Don’t you think that if the Church somehow found out that he did not exist that he would not have been canonized?
Indeed. Not to mention, Juan Diego did not die a martyr’s death for the Faith, so there had to be miracles attributed to his intercession in order for him to be raised to the altar. Who here seriously thinks God is going to endorse the veneration of a non-existent person with miracles?

For a guy who didn’t exist, we have quite a few details about him. We know, for example, about when he was born; we know his given name before he was converted to Christianity (Cuauhtlatoatzin, “Talking Eagle”); we know how he made a living; we know the names of his wife and his uncle, and we know how he spent the remaining years of his life after the apparitions. And we know the undeniable effects of the apparitions: the miraculous image on the tilma that should long since have ceased to exist (including the fact that it has miraculously survived a bombing); the conversion of countless Indians to Christianity, as somebody has already noted; and the aversion of a bloody Indian rebellion against the Spaniards.

Modernists, believing that only that which is banal and flatfooted and pedestrian is truly real, always seek to deny the supernatural, or “disprove” it, and it appears they are at it again. They are barking up the wrong tree.
 
P.S. The oldest and most authoritative account of the apparitions, the Nahuatl-language Nican Mopohua, was written just 25 years after the apparitions, and a dozen years after the death of St. Juan Diego.
 
the aforementioned were not canonized. the formal procedure for canonization was put into place sometime in the middle ages. before that saints were honored locally through acclamation, or added to the Roman calendar because they were martyrs or had evidenced heroic virtue in their lifetimes, but there was not a process in place to verify miracles etc. So when saints were removed from the calendar it did not mean they were no longer recognized as saints, simply acknowledgment of what has always been known, that legend and fact were in many cases mixed in their stories and veneration. So the history of veneration of such figures as these does not shed any light on the infallibility or not of the formal process of canonization. Find some other examples.
We are in agreement. You will notice that I said “The Church does not claim that its canonisation process has always been infallible.” (Emphasis added) My examples were sufficient to show that my statement was correct. I was referring to the earlier, more casual, process.

rossum
 
I have not read the article, but I am very familiar with the site. It is a frustrating site not because it debunks or disproves anything but because people link to it all the time as if it does debunk/disprove. I am not saying this doesn’t occur, here, but I thought I should give you guys the heads up that this is just your ordinary guy presenting a biased, skeptical point of view that plays up circumstantial theories in his favor.
Actually the one thing that concerns me most from the article I linked to is his claim that nowhere in any of his known letters or writings does Bishop Zumarraga mention either Juan Diego, the apparition, the flowers or the tilma. As the author points out if the bishop played such a central role in this entire event, and every narration of the story puts the bishop central, don’t you think something would’ve shown up in his writings? Is there anyway to plausibly explain this lack of corroboration in Zumarraga’s writings? I honestly don’t know. Perhaps Zumarraga’s writings are incomplete or a huge chunk covering that particular time period are missing – but I don’t know that to be the case either.

ChadS
 
As the author points out if the bishop played such a central role in this entire event, and every narration of the story puts the bishop central, don’t you think something would’ve shown up in his writings?
Not necessarily. We do not have everything written 450 years ago, in America which was a primitive society at the time. This argument from silence is very thin considering the circumstances.

In any case, the author has no understanding of the Catholic Church and the idea of Faith. The first post lays out the argument well against the Catholic Church, but what is missing is the argument for Juan Diego based on the reversal. It is not the existence of this man that is the question and what is being attacked. It is the authority of the Church. Instead of asking yourself if you think this event may not have been chronicled the way we do things today, ask instead if you really believe in Jesus and do you really believe he established a Church against which the gates of Hell would not prevail.

I do not believe in the Catholic Church or not based on my faith in this story. I believe in this story based on my faith in the Catholic Church.
 
Not necessarily. We do not have everything written 450 years ago, in America which was a primitive society at the time. This argument from silence is very thin considering the circumstances.

In any case, the author has no understanding of the Catholic Church and the idea of Faith. The first post lays out the argument well against the Catholic Church, but what is missing is the argument for Juan Diego based on the reversal. It is not the existence of this man that is the question and what is being attacked. It is the authority of the Church. Instead of asking yourself if you think this event may not have been chronicled the way we do things today, ask instead if you really believe in Jesus and do you really believe he established a Church against which the gates of Hell would not prevail.

I do not believe in the Catholic Church or not based on my faith in this story. I believe in this story based on my faith in the Catholic Church.
We aren’t talking about a primitive society, we’re talking about Spanish colonials and their administrative centers and networks here, including that of the local church authorities. These people had to answer to their superiors in Spain and copious amounts of letters, journals and inventories exist because of this bureucracy.

The argument was that Bishop Zumarraga doesn’t mention the case of Juan Diego, or the apparition, or the flowers or the tilma at all. He didn’t say that huge chunks of correspondence are missing so we don’t know. Virtually everything we know about the Spanish and Portuguese colonies in the New World comes from their records, so I myself find it a little hard to believe that an event that was so important to the church in the New World and would lead to the conversion of Mexican indians wouldn’t even rate a mention in the papers of the local bishop strikes me as odd.

The Church doesn’t ask us to rely on pure faith in everything we do. In the canonization process dozens of historians and researchers as well as theologians are employed to verify and correctly interpret scores of documents. They even use archaeologists when doing excavations and renovations on truly ancient and historic churches to provide proof and evidence before certain claims are made.

Juan Diego was recently canonized. Does his “acta” provide any of these missing quotes from Zumarraga that the article failed to find? I don’t know.

I don’t want to doubt the story of Juan Diego, but right now I’m having trouble overcoming this difficulty.

ChadS
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top