Did Lucifer Have Free Will?

Status
Not open for further replies.

meltzerboy

New member
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe Catholicism (and Christianity in general) states that Satan is a fallen angel (Lucifer) because he rebelled against G-d. If that is so, did Lucifer, the angel, have free will? I’m puzzled because I thought angels were not supposed to have free will. (Judaism’s conception of Satan is totally different: he is still thought to be an angel–not the Devil–who does G-d’s bidding in testing Man’s free will by tempting him.)
 
I remembered reading something from the weekly 5 questions. I don’t have the link, but one of the questions regarded this topic. Angels used to have free will, but after Lucifer rebelled, God took free will away from angels.
 
Yes, Lucifer, along with all the other angels, have free will. God doesnt like to create machines who are programmed to love him, God creates beings who can choose to love him or can choose to deny him. All the angels would have to have free will as Satan was able to convince a third of them to rebel against God with him.

You also have to look at what the repercussions are if Lucifer doesnt have free will. That would mean God created a selfish being that would oppose him and lead others away from him. God created a foe who would hurt his creation only for him to then punish Satan and all the others who followed him. This does not seem indicative of the God that we see in the Bible.

While the Jewish viewpoint you put forward seems to represent the Devil seen in Job, it doesnt match up with the Serpent in Genesis, or with the way the Jewish people acted in the Gospels. The Jews knew of demons and were possessed with demons in the Gospels. They seemed to know and refer to the Devil as evil inside of the Gospel along with Christ being tempted by the Devil to deny God. In the Gospels the demons and Satan do not seem to be good angels following God’s will. Christ even puts forward that if Satan cleansed people of demons then his kingdom would be divided implying he isnt following God’s Kingdom (Luke 11:18)
 
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe Catholicism (and Christianity in general) states that Satan is a fallen angel (Lucifer) because he rebelled against G-d. If that is so, did Lucifer, the angel, have free will? I’m puzzled because I thought angels were not supposed to have free will. (Judaism’s conception of Satan is totally different: he is still thought to be an angel–not the Devil–who does G-d’s bidding in testing Man’s free will by tempting him.)
Well, we believe God uses Satan’s freewill to do evil to test humanity and to disgust humanity, prompting penance and a return to God. All things are part of God’s will.
 
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe Catholicism (and Christianity in general) states that Satan is a fallen angel (Lucifer) because he rebelled against G-d. If that is so, did Lucifer, the angel, have free will? I’m puzzled because I thought angels were not supposed to have free will. (Judaism’s conception of Satan is totally different: he is still thought to be an angel–not the Devil–who does G-d’s bidding in testing Man’s free will by tempting him.)
This is not something that you will find in the Bible, but an important Catholic theologian - St. Thomas Aquinas - argued that at one point in time, angels were given a test from God. Satan and 1/3 of the other angels failed the test and therefore became “fallen angels”, or more popularly known as demons. After the test, the angels in Heaven could not rebel against God since they have passed the test; the fallen angels who roam the world and elsewhere will always rebel against God. In short, the test was an eternal matter. No resits, no remarks allowed. If you failed, you failed. Now you might ask why the angels were given such a harsh test? Well, if memory serves me correct, the angels in Heaven had no excuse to disobey God, since they are incredibly intelligent and were close witnesses to His glory. I don’t think they enjoyed the beatific vision, but then again, I’m still a learner.

Humans are given some leeway (through the Sacrament of Reconciliation) because we’re a bit stupid and we can’t really see God’s eternal glory because of the nature of Original Sin that ruptured our communion with God.
 
Yes, Lucifer, along with all the other angels, have free will. God doesnt like to create machines who are programmed to love him, God creates beings who can choose to love him or can choose to deny him. All the angels would have to have free will as Satan was able to convince a third of them to rebel against God with him.

You also have to look at what the repercussions are if Lucifer doesnt have free will. That would mean God created a selfish being that would oppose him and lead others away from him. God created a foe who would hurt his creation only for him to then punish Satan and all the others who followed him. This does not seem indicative of the God that we see in the Bible.

While the Jewish viewpoint you put forward seems to represent the Devil seen in Job, it doesnt match up with the Serpent in Genesis, or with the way the Jewish people acted in the Gospels. The Jews knew of demons and were possessed with demons in the Gospels. They seemed to know and refer to the Devil as evil inside of the Gospel along with Christ being tempted by the Devil to deny God. In the Gospels the demons and Satan do not seem to be good angels following God’s will. Christ even puts forward that if Satan cleansed people of demons then his kingdom would be divided implying he isnt following God’s Kingdom (Luke 11:18)
I know that G-d created Man with free will, but I had thought He created angels with no free will. Let’s see what other posters say about it.

Yes, Jews believe in demons (more a part of folklore than official Jewish doctrine), but Satan is not thought to be one of them. The Serpent in Genesis is the “hinderer” who tempts Eve to test her free will. According to Judaism, Satan, while clever and deceptive, does not wish Eve (or any of us) to succumb to his guile. Since the Gospel is the Christian Bible, Jewish Law does not derive from its writings or beliefs.

Thank you for your comments!
 
While the Jewish viewpoint you put forward seems to represent the Devil seen in Job, it doesnt match up with the Serpent in Genesis, or with the way the Jewish people acted in the Gospels. The Jews knew of demons and were possessed with demons in the Gospels. They seemed to know and refer to the Devil as evil inside of the Gospel along with Christ being tempted by the Devil to deny God. In the Gospels the demons and Satan do not seem to be good angels following God’s will. Christ even puts forward that if Satan cleansed people of demons then his kingdom would be divided implying he isnt following God’s Kingdom (Luke 11:18)
I disagree. Judaism’s view on angels isn’t very different from Catholicism’s view of angels. I’m even inclined to say that they are the same at prima facie. Whilst the Devil and demons do go against God’s will, they are still performing God’s will (in an ironic sense) by helping out to determine who really loves God and who really hates God. St. Aquinas argued that God is really omnipotent (all-powerful) because only He can bring total good out of total evil, and it seems God is bringing good out of evil by allowing the Devil to sort out the wheat from the chaff (good people from bad people). This has some loose biblical connections to the earthly world, where God planned the rise of the Pharaoh for His own Wish, even though the Pharaoh was acting in defiance of God’s will: “But for this purpose I have raised you up, to show you my power, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth” (Exodus 9:16). It’s equally possible God is doing the same with Satan, which is a theme underlying the entire Book of Job.
 
I remembered reading something from the weekly 5 questions. I don’t have the link, but one of the questions regarded this topic. Angels used to have free will, but after Lucifer rebelled, God took free will away from angels.
This is interesting. Of course, G-d must have known that Lucifer would rebel and that He (G-d) would take away angels’ free will after that.

Thanks for the information!
 
Humans are given some leeway (through the Sacrament of Reconciliation) because we’re a bit stupid and we can’t really see God’s eternal glory because of the nature of Original Sin that ruptured our communion with God.
Actually, we humans are given a similar test. We are given approximately 80 years to do good and choose God or to deny God and choose Hell. After our time on Earth we are not given the chance to retest and change our minds just as the angels. We find God in Heaven, the ultimate end that we were created for and are eternally happy with no reason to sin against him. Here we sin looking for happiness in the wrong places. In Heaven we have happiness to the fullest with no reason to sin. I believe that the Angels were tested in a way very similar to our own with the only difference being that the angels are pure spirit and not subject to some sins which we are.
 
Actually, we humans are given a similar test. We are given approximately 80 years to do good and choose God or to deny God and choose Hell. After our time on Earth we are not given the chance to retest and change our minds just as the angels. We find God in Heaven, the ultimate end that we were created for and are eternally happy with no reason to sin against him. Here we sin looking for happiness in the wrong places. In Heaven we have happiness to the fullest with no reason to sin. I believe that the Angels were tested in a way very similar to our own with the only difference being that the angels are pure spirit and not subject to some sins which we are.
Well, we can only confess whilst we are alive. That’s what I was trying to say :).

I wouldn’t say the test we have is similar, but God has cut us some slack because we can’t see Him, nor are we really close to see His glory.
 
I disagree. Judaism’s view on angels isn’t very different from Catholicism’s view of angels. I’m even inclined to say that they are the same at prima facie. Whilst the Devil and demons do go against God’s will, they are still performing God’s will (in an ironic sense) by helping out to determine who really loves God and who really hates God. St. Aquinas argued that God is really omnipotent (all-powerful) because only He can turn bring total good out of total evil, and it seems God is bringing good out of evil by allowing the Devil to sort out the wheat from the chaff. This has some loose biblical connections to the earthly world, where God planned the rise of the Pharaoh for His own Wish, even though the Pharaoh was acting in defiance of God’s will: “But for this purpose I have raised you up, to show you my power, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth” (Exodus 9:16). It’s equally possible God is doing the same with Satan, which is a theme underlying the entire Book of Job.
In that case, does Catholicism believe that Satan is still obeying G-d even though he (Satan) believes he is rebelling? I think this poses some thorny theological issues since Satan is considered in Catholicism to be a force of evil.

Thanks for these intriguing comments!
 
In that case, does Catholicism believe that Satan is still obeying G-d even though he (Satan) believes he is rebelling? I think this poses some thorny theological issues since Satan is considered in Catholicism to be a force of evil.

Thanks for these intriguing comments!
Satan is like a dog on a long loose leesh, to paraphrase one saint. Satan is only allowed the power that God grants to him. For example, God did not permit Satan to kill Job. So Satan technically still obeyed God, and can only obey God in regards to the parameters that God has set out for him.

I wouldn’t call it “obeying” in the virtuous sense of the word, as it is that God let’s the devil do certain things, and being a mere fallen angel, the devil can only act within the boundaries that God has set him.
 
This is not something that you will find in the Bible, but an important Catholic theologian - St. Thomas Aquinas - argued that at one point in time, angels were given a test from God. Satan and 1/3 of the other angels failed the test and therefore became “fallen angels”, or more popularly known as demons. After the test, the angels in Heaven could not rebel against God since they have passed the test; the fallen angels who roam the world and elsewhere will always rebel against God. In short, the test was an eternal matter. No resits, no remarks allowed. If you failed, you failed. Now you might ask why the angels were given such a harsh test? Well, if memory serves me correct, the angels in Heaven had no excuse to disobey God, since they are incredibly intelligent and were close witnesses to His glory. I don’t think they enjoyed the beatific vision, but then again, I’m still a learner.

Humans are given some leeway (through the Sacrament of Reconciliation) because we’re a bit stupid and we can’t really see God’s eternal glory because of the nature of Original Sin that ruptured our communion with God.
St. Thomas Aquinas had a brilliant mind, and I love reading his reflections. But where did he get this notion from: is there any Scriptural basis for it, or did he reason this must be the case to explain the situation of the fallen angels? And does the Church agree with his view?
 
In that case, does Catholicism believe that Satan is still obeying G-d even though he (Satan) believes he is rebelling? I think this poses some thorny theological issues since Satan is considered in Catholicism to be a force of evil.

Thanks for these intriguing comments!
Well Catholicism confronts the porblem of evil and suffering in the World by saying that in any and all evil God can derive a greater good. Christians see that although we failed and performed evil in the Garden of Eden, that we brought about the greater good of God becoming one of us. So even though Satan is evil and rebelling and will receive justice one day, God can still bring good from this by having us grow closer to Him through our sufferings. We can also see how we felt while we suffered and know what we went through and help others in similar situations bringing good.
 
St. Thomas Aquinas had a brilliant mind, and I love reading his reflections. But where did he get this notion from: is there any Scriptural basis for it, or did he reason this must be the case to explain the situation of the fallen angels? And does the Church agree with his view?
That’s a good question. I’m not really sure to be honest. However, if memory serves me correct, in the Book of Enoch (not a Book included in the contemporary Bible), it details explicitly of the “war” that occurred in Heaven. My own guess is that St. Aquinas was probably influenced from this, as well as deduced logic from the other philosophers he was influenced by (Aristotle, for one).

The Church doesn’t make a comment on these issues, and it’s up for interpretation. The Church doesn’t go very much into angels/guardian angels, but only mentions them in passing and acknowledges their existence.
 
Well, we believe God uses Satan’s freewill to do evil to test humanity and to disgust humanity, prompting penance and a return to God. All things are part of God’s will.
Thanks for the information. I hadn’t realized this is part of the Catholic view of Satan.
 
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe Catholicism (and Christianity in general) states that Satan is a fallen angel (Lucifer) because he rebelled against G-d. If that is so, did Lucifer, the angel, have free will? I’m puzzled because I thought angels were not supposed to have free will. (Judaism’s conception of Satan is totally different: he is still thought to be an angel–not the Devil–who does G-d’s bidding in testing Man’s free will by tempting him.)
Meltzerboy:

Here is some of the text from The Teachings of the Catholic Church, Vol I, pp. 276 - 279, The MacMillan Co., 1962 printing:

". . . With great wisdom St. Thomas has discarded every sort of motive for the angelic lapse that is not entirely spiritual, that savours more of imagination than of intelligence. He teaches with steady persistence that no spirit in his natural sphere can transgress or err in any way. But if the spirit be taken, so to speak, out of his natural order and placed in another, a higher order – the supernatural order – then there is the possibility of a refusal; the spirit may refuse to accept or to hold something that is above his order; he may, in fact, rebel against the order of God. This is the only tenable theological explanation of the fall of the angels . . .

“Through the supernatural a spirit is taken out of his sphere into a higher one; but this higher sphere means essentially a community of life with all other spirits thus favoured; it means community with lower spirits; it means community with man himself. The higher grace is indeed the more excellent gift, but it is also the more universal gift. The natural greatness of the angel is a glory which has no equal; it is a singular perfection which is without rival. A spirit may thus choose to enter into communion with the supernatural or to remain entirely in his own sphere, preferring his own natural excellency to the communion of the universal family of God. St Thomas says that some of the spirits chose the second alternative; they preferred their natural glory in its isolation to the community of the supernatural charity; and this is the fall of the angels. . . .”

So, it is pride because they chose excellency without regard for the more excellent good. It is rebellion because it was God’s will that they should accept the supernatural. And, it is envy, because it was an opposition to a holy thing, i.e., the grace of God. Theologians also say that theirs was an opposition to the supernatural of the Incarnation, which was made known to them, and that their unwillingness to adore the God-man was their fall. But this is really saying the same thing, “as the Incarnation is the highest phase of the supernatural.” (Ibid, pp 278)

This clearly shows that the angels had free will but that it was converted to the selfish good of the reluctant angels. St. Thomas taught that the angel, who begins existence in a higher state than that of men (as man’s state is a state of sin) and in this way, the angels did not fall from corruption into corruption, from sin into sin.

God bless,
jd
 
Meltzerboy:

Here is some of the text from The Teachings of the Catholic Church, Vol I, pp. 276 - 279, The MacMillan Co., 1962 printing:

". . . With great wisdom St. Thomas has discarded every sort of motive for the angelic lapse that is not entirely spiritual, that savours more of imagination than of intelligence. He teaches with steady persistence that no spirit in his natural sphere can transgress or err in any way. But if the spirit be taken, so to speak, out of his natural order and placed in another, a higher order – the supernatural order – then there is the possibility of a refusal; the spirit may refuse to accept or to hold something that is above his order; he may, in fact, rebel against the order of God. This is the only tenable theological explanation of the fall of the angels . . .

“Through the supernatural a spirit is taken out of his sphere into a higher one; but this higher sphere means essentially a community of life with all other spirits thus favoured; it means community with lower spirits; it means community with man himself. The higher grace is indeed the more excellent gift, but it is also the more universal gift. The natural greatness of the angel is a glory which has no equal; it is a singular perfection which is without rival. A spirit may thus choose to enter into communion with the supernatural or to remain entirely in his own sphere, preferring his own natural excellency to the communion of the universal family of God. St Thomas says that some of the spirits chose the second alternative; they preferred their natural glory in its isolation to the community of the supernatural charity; and this is the fall of the angels. . . .”

So, it is pride because they chose excellency without regard for the more excellent good. It is rebellion because it was God’s will that they should accept the supernatural. And, it is envy, because it was an opposition to a holy thing, i.e., the grace of God. Theologians also say that theirs was an opposition to the supernatural of the Incarnation, which was made known to them, and that their unwillingness to adore the God-man was their fall. But this is really saying the same thing, “as the Incarnation is the highest phase of the supernatural.” (Ibid, pp 278)

This clearly shows that the angels had free will but that it was converted to the selfish good of the reluctant angels. St. Thomas taught that the angel, who begins existence in a higher state than that of men (as man’s state is a state of sin) and in this way, the angels did not fall from corruption into corruption, from sin into sin.

God bless,
jd
Thanks so much for this fascinating information!
 
Bohm

**The Church doesn’t make a comment on these issues, and it’s up for interpretation. The Church doesn’t go very much into angels/guardian angels, but only mentions them in passing and acknowledges their existence. **

The Church has advocated a special reverence for St. Michael the Archangel as an angel who can help us in the battle with Satan. Pope Leo XIII wrote a special prayer to Michael, and Pope John Paul II urged Catholics to pray it.

“Saint Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle;
be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray:
and do thou, O Prince of the heavenly host,
by the power of God,
thrust into hell Satan and all the evil spirits
who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls.
Amen.”
 
The Church has advocated a special reverence for St. Michael the Archangel as an angel who can help us in the battle with Satan. Pope Leo XIII wrote a special prayer to Michael, and Pope John Paul II urged Catholics to pray it.

“Saint Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle;
be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray:
and do thou, O Prince of the heavenly host,
by the power of God,
thrust into hell Satan and all the evil spirits
who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls.
Amen.”
We can certainly ask angels for their intercession. I never disputed that for one second.

What I mean is that the Church has not developed an advanced theoretical framework on angels, and hence why angels are not often spoken about in Church teaching. You might be surprised to know that a lot of what we know about angels comes from private revelation and cultural influence. Even the very St. Michael Prayer, if I’m not mistaken, originated from a vision that a Pope had of a conversation between God and the devil.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top