Did Lucifer Have Free Will?

Status
Not open for further replies.
We can certainly ask angels for their intercession. I never disputed that for one second.

What I mean is that the Church has not developed an advanced theoretical framework on angels, and hence why angels are not often spoken about in Church teaching. You might be surprised to know that a lot of what we know about angels comes from private revelation and cultural influence. Even the very St. Michael Prayer, if I’m not mistaken, originated from a vision that a Pope had of a conversation between God and the devil.
Bohm:

Actually, the Church does have a relatively extensive angelology. An angelology does not necessarily have to exist in word form. It may also exist in thousands and thousands of paintings, sculptures, mosaics, etc. Scripture is not replete with angels; they seem to enter when needed and then rather quickly depart. St. Thomas has perhaps said (in ‘words’) the most about angels, and his teachings still stand. Their most significant adoration, from humans, comes to us in the form of angel art, which, as said, we have a plethora of. :angel1:

God bless,
jd
 
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe Catholicism (and Christianity in general) states that Satan is a fallen angel (Lucifer) because he rebelled against G-d. If that is so, did Lucifer, the angel, have free will? I’m puzzled because I thought angels were not supposed to have free will. (Judaism’s conception of Satan is totally different: he is still thought to be an angel–not the Devil–who does G-d’s bidding in testing Man’s free will by tempting him.)
A will, by definition, is always free, even when its outcomes are thwarted.
 
A will, by definition, is always free, even when its outcomes are thwarted.
Indeed! It must always be free because we are made in God’s image but His scope is unlimited whereas ours is not. For one thing we are not omniscient… 🙂

There is no reason to suppose angels are zombies without free will because then they would be incapable of love…
 
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe Catholicism (and Christianity in general) states that Satan is a fallen angel (Lucifer) because he rebelled against G-d. If that is so, did Lucifer, the angel, have free will? I’m puzzled because I thought angels were not supposed to have free will. (Judaism’s conception of Satan is totally different: he is still thought to be an angel–not the Devil–who does G-d’s bidding in testing Man’s free will by tempting him.)
You are the second person to make that assumption. Angels do have free will. The same Supernatural grace that is given to souls in heaven is the same supernatural grace that is given to angels so that they don’t want to sin or rebel.

We are given grace to resist temptation - sufficient grace. When we are in heaven God will give us this supernatural grace so that we no longer desire anything that is against Him or our natural appetites. We will be in unison with His will - always wanting the good and the perfect without end.
 
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe Catholicism (and Christianity in general) states that Satan is a fallen angel (Lucifer) because he rebelled against G-d. If that is so, did Lucifer, the angel, have free will? I’m puzzled because I thought angels were not supposed to have free will. (Judaism’s conception of Satan is totally different: he is still thought to be an angel–not the Devil–who does G-d’s bidding in testing Man’s free will by tempting him.)
He had free will. The most interesting thing about this is that, before he rebelled, Satan was literally in heaven. He was ( I am fairly sure), second only to God. Yet, he still was not satisfiesd.
 
My understanding of free will is the same for both humans and angels, the difference being time. We have +/- 80 years to jump back to do pretty much experiment with our free wills, while the angels get one choice to either follow God or not. This is one that lasts eternally since they are outside time.

And I think the problem was the same one in Genesis, he wished to be God and I recall a sermon on the devil being jealous of man because God walked with man in the Garden and not with him, but i can’t be certain.
 
Grace & Peace!

I’ve read somewhere (I forget where) that what an angel is is inseparable from what an angel does. Doing and being are not separate for an angel. An angel is never not doing whatever makes up it’s angelness. If it ever were to stop doing what it is, it would be tantamount to immediately starting to pursue a line of action (a way of being for an angel) consistent with the pursuit of non-angelness or un-angelness. That is, it would immediately start attempting to consume and destroy itself. In this line of thought, a demon is no more and certainly no less than an imploding angel.

I’m not sure if I completely agree with this line of reasoning. It’s certainly evocative. And it is consistent with what we know of the nature of sin. I’m thinking of Origen’s description of sin as whatever removes us from the recollection of God with the understanding that God holds all that is within his recollection. Sin is the pursuit, in other words, of un-being. Our advantage over the angels in this regard is that our bodies in time prevent us from falling completely into the vaccuum of the emptiness of our creatureliness, allowing us to repent. For the angels, repentence is impossible–what they do is done in eternity. To cease to do it is for them to become a kind of eternal un-becoming.

Anyway. Just a thought!

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
Satan did not have free will. Look at the biblical evidence. Ezekiel writes of the King of Tyre in the 28th Chapter of the book that bears his name. This King of Tyre is figurative of Satan and much information about the Devil can be gleaned from this chapter.

Vs 14 and15 tells us he was created, not just created but created perfect in his ways. There is only one entity that can create anything perfect and that is God.

Vs 14 tells us that the workmanship of his tabrets and pipes was prepared in him in the day he was created. Now you must ask yourself, what are the tabrets and pipes? Tabrets are like drums and may be likened unto eardrums. Pipes can be likened to windpipes or vocal chords. Here we can see that what Satan would hear and say were already prepared by the one that created him.

You will also find in Genesis 2:17 that God already knew, before taking the woman out of the man, that Adam would eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. How did He know that? He had already programmed the devil to succesfully decieve the woman and subsequently have the man willingly eat of the fruit. Why? So God’s purpose would get rolling and God’s plan of salvation could proceed unencumbered to its successful completion.
 
I don’t think you can take away free will from angles and still claim that Man has free will. Aquinas says that not only do the angles have free will but they have it in a higher degree than man. Since Lucifer is an angel he does have free will.

Reference: The Summa Theologica Part 1 Q. 59 A:3 newadvent.org/summa/1059.htm

The other sections are equally enlightening.
 
I don’t think you can take away free will from angles and still claim that Man has free will. Aquinas says that not only do the angles have free will but they have it in a higher degree than man. Since Lucifer is an angel he does have free will.

Reference: The Summa Theologica Part 1 Q. 59 A:3 newadvent.org/summa/1059.htm

The other sections are equally enlightening.
I read your reference quoted above. There is one major problem with it: Not one biblical reference, nothing but human theory, concept and opinion. I’ll stick with my previous post since it is based upon divinely inspired scripture as opposed to a mere mortal’s possibly flawed reasoning.
 
the devil was stuck in a damned if you do damned if you dont postion. He was told to bow down to man but if he did that he would have been giving praise and worrship to beings other than god thus breaking the first commandment but in refusing to obey god in doing this he was in fact fullfing gods command. no matter what he did he was going to be in trouble. I got a lot of sympathy for the poor guy
 
St. Thomas often didnt use any references in most of the work unless he was quoting philosophy.

Now the passages you quoted don’t speak of satan. Rather i find that they speak of God expelling man from the Garden of Eden (Gn 3,24). Not to mention the genesis passage you quoted referred to God telling man not to eat from the tree, there is no implication that he is actually gonna do it, like a father warning their child not to play with fire.

The problem with angelic free will is that human free will is also at stake. If you say that God scripted the serpent fooling man then man has no free will. Now you can say that God caused the evil by giving free will, but if there was no will things would be neither good nor evil. They would be just acts, and that is not quite how reality is.
 
but he would have been breaking the command to worrship god alone no matter what choice he made he would have been condemed by god.
 
St. Thomas often didnt use any references in most of the work unless he was quoting philosophy.

Now the passages you quoted don’t speak of satan. Rather i find that they speak of God expelling man from the Garden of Eden (Gn 3,24). Not to mention the genesis passage you quoted referred to God telling man not to eat from the tree, there is no implication that he is actually gonna do it, like a father warning their child not to play with fire.

The problem with angelic free will is that human free will is also at stake. If you say that God scripted the serpent fooling man then man has no free will. Now you can say that God caused the evil by giving free will, but if there was no will things would be neither good nor evil. They would be just acts, and that is not quite how reality is.
Itari, you seem to have missed the point. I was trying to keep things simple but I will try to be more specific this time.

I was trying to show that Yahweh knew the transgression would take place before it actually happened. As a matter of fact Yahweh caused it to happen rather than waited around for man to screw up and then react to man’s error.

Gen 2:17 reads: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt shurely die. This underlined statement shows that Yahweh Elohim already knew that the man would eat.

1 Tim 3:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman, being deceived, was in the transgression. Holy cow! The apostle Saul, who we know for an assurity had the Holy Spirit says that Adam was NOT deceived. Hmmm, so Adam knew what he was doing.

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come. Now Saul is saying that Adam was a figure of him that was to come, namely one Yahshua the Messiah.
How could that be, How could Adam be a figure of the Savior? How about the fact that Adam was not deceived, he knew that he and his wife Eve were going to die but he ate anyway? Sounds to me like he willingly gave his life for his bride. Didn’t Yahshua the Messiah give His life for His bride (his church) by dying on the cross some 2000 years ago?

Now put the whole thing together: Adam as a figure of the messiah willingly dies for his bride to foreshadow what the Savior would do 4000 years later. Ezekiel, through inspiration of the Holy Spirit tells us what Satan says and hears is prepared in the day he is created. It must be that Yahweh knew exactly what was going to happen BEFORE it happened because He caused it to happen just the way it did. Yahweh caused Satan to deceive Eve so the man would willingly eat and get the purpose rolling.
To think that Yahweh would sit around and wait for men to mess up and then react would be to deny Yahweh’s Omnipresence, Omnipotence and Omniscience. It would make him less than the All in All and that just can’t be.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top