Did Luther claim for himself that infallibility, which he would not allow to the Church of Christ?

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alwayswill said:
How many teachings have been declared Ex-Cathedra ?

There is no set list of ex cathedra teachings
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There are some thing that TCC doesn’t have to make declarations about. The number of instances of infallibility is one example.

Let’s take something we can agree on: St. Paul. We know of some instances in which he enjoyed infallibility, but in his many years as an apostles there were surely some times when he made a true statement without enjoying infallibility (i.e. being divinely *protected *from error).
 
alwayswill said:
maybe: what do you think?
This interpretation is **not **infallible:
bible.org/article/what-head-covering-1-cor-112-16-and-does-it-apply-us-today

Can you point me to the infallible interpretation?
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I can look into it some, to see if there was an official Church decision about it. But remember YOU are the one who holds to SS, not me. I know that the Church does not regard it as a Sacred Tradition. Do you? Why would God inspire Paul to write in Scripture about a tradition that is not infallible?
 
Not that I dislike this conversation, but now I can’t stop wondering if someone (LutheranSatire for instance) has ever produced a work on the topic of “Infallibility Envy”.
 
Peter_J said:
Not that I dislike this conversation, but now I can’t stop wondering if someone (LutheranSatire for instance) has ever produced a work on the topic of “Infallibility Envy”.
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If he did, I’m sure it was short. 😛
 
Another important aspect of papal infalibility, is that it is not the pope, in himself who is actually infallible. The pope is very fallible (capable of committing and teaching error. Yet, under certain conditions (ex-Cathedra), the pope “is able” to Teach infallible.

No other leader has this distinct gift from Jesus, even as Jesus specifically prayed for Peter’s faith not to fail and to shepherd the flock.
 
LutheranScholar said:
If he did, I’m sure it was short. 😛
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I hadn’t thought about it that way, but good point. 👍 (For example, the number of posts on this thread is much less than on the “If Luther were alive today, would he be Catholic?” thread.)

Nevertheless, I get the impression that a small number of Protestants are obsessed with infallibility.
 
Peter_J said:
Nevertheless, I get the impression that a small number of Protestants are obsessed with infallibility.
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Do you mean “obsessed” as an exaggerated concern and objection? Would Orthodox be there too?
 
rcwitness said:
Another important aspect of papal infalibility, is that it is not the pope, in himself who is actually infallible. The pope is very fallible (capable of committing and teaching error. Yet, under certain conditions (ex-Cathedra), the pope “is able” to Teach infallible.

No other leader has this distinct gift from Jesus, even as Jesus specifically prayed for Peter’s faith not to fail and to shepherd the flock.
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“under certain conditions (ex-Cathedra), the pope “is able” to Teach infallible”

Is it obvious to Catholics when these conditions are met?
alwayswill said:
Is Ordinatio Sacerdotalis from 1994 an ** infallible** doctrine or not?
Do you know?

"When John Paul II ruled out the ordination of women in Ordinatio sacerdotalis, he used the expression “definitive,” but did not use the formula that would signal an infallible teaching; in fact the word “infallible” doesn’t appear anywhere in the document. (These documents are carefully crafted. “Infallible is missing for a reason.) Cardinal Ratzinger, as prefect for the Congregation for the doctrine of the Faith, argued in a response to a question about Ordinatio sacerdotalis that the teaching was part of the “deposit of faith” and therefore an infallible teaching of the “ordinary and universal magisterium”–although he knows full well that’s not how infalliblility works; something can’t be declared infallible by a Vatican office. Canonists and theologians the world over argued that** the teaching was not infallible for a variety of reasons. -**”
uscatholic.org/blog/2011/05/infallible-teaching-womens-ordination

I have been astonished over the past few days at how many commentators, including Catholics widely known for their orthodoxy, have hastened to state that the Pope’s recent Apostolic Letter, “Ordinatio Sacerdotalis”, is not infallible. In fact, it is a textbook case of infallibility in action.

ewtn.com/library/ISSUES/ORDIN.TXT

Just in this thread I find
Some Catholics say Unam sanctam from 1302 is infallible
some say it is not
some say it doesn’t matter
some say the interpretation of Unam sanctam is not infallible

what do you say?
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Peter_J said:
I hadn’t thought about it that way, but good point. 👍 (For example, the number of posts on this thread is much less than on the “If Luther were alive today, would he be Catholic?” thread.)

Nevertheless, I get the impression that a small number of Protestants are obsessed with infallibility.
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The formal principle of the Protestant Reformation is Sola Scriptura: which includes the belief that the writings breathed out by God are the only infallible and inerrant authority we have on earth.
Catholics do not believe that.

Every single line of a writing breathed out by God is infallible.

Catholics seem to be unsure on what is and is not an infallible proclamation / writing from their Church.

am I correct?
 
alwayswill said:
The formal principle of the Protestant Reformation is Sola Scriptura: which includes the belief that the writings breathed out by God are the only infallible and inerrant authority we have on earth.
Catholics do not believe that.

Every single line of a writing breathed out by God is infallible.

Catholics seem to be unsure on what is and is not an infallible proclamation / writing from their Church.

am I correct?
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Of course Catholics believe that the Bible is inerrant. It is the understanding of the word of God by Christians that can be in error.

Catholics is protected from this error with the gift of infallibility which was promised by God for His Church.
 
Reuben_J said:
Of course Catholics believe that the Bible is inerrant. It is the understanding of the word of God by Christians that can be in error.

Catholics is protected from this error with the gift of infallibility which was promised by God for His Church.
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Catholics seem to be unsure on what is and is not an infallible proclamation / writing from their Church.

am I correct?
 
alwayswill said:
Catholics seem to be unsure on what is and is not an infallible proclamation / writing from their Church.

am I correct?
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As a practicing and relatively informed Catholic, infallibility does not cause me one bit of anxiety.
When you use the word “sure” I take that to mean certainty.
My certainty is not in the various documents and such put forth by the Church, my certainty is in the person of Christ and his gifts given to the Church. The Church is a community of people, not a collection of proclamations. I’m certain of the charisms that Christ gives his people.

I give my assent to lots of stuff that is not proved infallible, because I trust those charisms.

As always, I don’t think most people don’t even understand what infallibility is.
 
alwayswill said:
Catholics seem to be unsure on what is and is not an infallible proclamation / writing from their Church.

am I correct?
Click to expand...
I think it’s more appropriate to address each specific issue. Ordination of women is declared impossible (infallibly, yes).
 
alwayswill said:
“under certain conditions (ex-Cathedra), the pope “is able” to Teach infallible”

Is it obvious to Catholics when these conditions are met?
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alwayswill said:
Catholics seem to be unsure on what is and is not an infallible proclamation / writing from their Church.

am I correct?
Click to expand...
I think the question should be, Was it obvious to first-century Christians which letters were a part of Sacred Scripture?
 
goout said:
As a practicing and relatively informed Catholic, infallibility does not cause me one bit of anxiety.
When you use the word “sure” I take that to mean certainty.
My certainty is not in the various documents and such put forth by the Church, my certainty is in the person of Christ and his gifts given to the Church. The Church is a community of people, not a collection of proclamations. I’m certain of the charisms that Christ gives his people.

I give my assent to lots of stuff that is not proved infallible, because I trust those charisms.

As always, I don’t think most people don’t even understand what infallibility is.
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so
" that it is NOT absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

could be true if

“that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

was not an infallible declaration.
 
goout said:
As a practicing and relatively informed Catholic, infallibility does not cause me one bit of anxiety.
When you use the word “sure” I take that to mean certainty.
My certainty is not in the various documents and such put forth by the Church, my certainty is in the person of Christ and his gifts given to the Church. The Church is a community of people, not a collection of proclamations. I’m certain of the charisms that Christ gives his people.

I give my assent to lots of stuff that is not proved infallible, because I trust those charisms.

As always, I don’t think most people don’t even understand what infallibility is.
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I pretty much agree with you, except I cannot say that infallibility does not cause me one bit of anxiety. I guess I do have a little bit of anxiety about it (but very little).
 
Peter_J said:
I think the question should be, Was it obvious to first-century Christians which letters were a part of Sacred Scripture?
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This is also an interesting question , but I was looking forward to answers to alwayswill’s question.
 
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