Did Luther mean to start Protestantism?

[KathleenGee]

Thanks, Jon, for providing a clear…meaning simple for me, Lutheran understanding of the sacraments.

Well, I just got up…was in a daze last night as I had worked the night before, then am, then my ‘adl’s’…daily living, etc. We are in process of renovating our house along with it all…

To bring a light side here…I came to the computer here about 20 minutes ago…and then looked up to side on wall above the printer…oh about 5 feet away…and saw this 6 inch plus NW slug…I screamed and my son was poised to pull out his gun. Awful. We have rats stopping by from the creek down below and got slack bringing dog dishes in at night and think one sneaked in on the back of a bowl…awful.

Went back on posts…and yes, Police’s posts were very bright and colorful, sort of glaring and with my failing eyes…it is hard to grasp the sentiments that are color coded…

 

[KathleenGee]

Tom…I do see it as well as a loss of faith which is very understandable in setting off the Protestant Reformation…

I also see a loss of faith in authority which comes from above, not from below…a loss of faith because of men who failed in their vocation…but then it comes back to bite…and so faith is re-ordered to that based on men…and focusing on men too much to affirm one’s faith in conjunction with the Bible.

I think Catholic theologians have done very thorough work in defining the working vocabulary of our faith.

I went to probably the strictest Catholic school with Irish nuns in Puget Sound at that time for 9 years, but then went to public high school, and then went to a secular university. My father was in the Benedictine seminary for 2 years before discerning he did not have a vocation. But he always provided us with the best spiritual direction and good books in the home…Remember Catholic Book Club? We had books by Bishop Fulton Sheen as well.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Proknpie,

Ya’ got me!

But, you bring up a good point … and one of my many shortcomings… when I read a Protestant piece, I do the mental editing. I have done this for so long I have just taken this for granted. Ah, but, not everyone does this - and I should have put out a note on that.

Thanks for pointing that out.

God bless

Tom -

Did a little research on this nice protestant site. The author apparently is all-knowing on who is saved and who is not. Nice to know that he thinks we Catholics are saved. This is despite his attending Baptist colleges in Florida and Texas. He doesn’t address other Protestants so I can assume yes as well.

See
“What is the Gospel”… evidently all who never heard the gospel are not saved.
“Are Catholics Saved”…evidently we can be but we have to be careful

biblenews1.com/save/save.htm

 

[Porknpie]

Hi, Proknpie,

Ya’ got me!

But, you bring up a good point … and one of my many shortcomings… when I read a Protestant piece, I do the mental editing. I have done this for so long I have just taken this for granted. Ah, but, not everyone does this - and I should have put out a note on that.

Thanks for pointing that out.

God bless

Wasn’t trying to get you only spotting an issue or two. Some of the things that get my attention are disbelief in the Trinity, symbolic baptism, adult only baptism, OSAS, symbolic communion, Catholics unsaved…many roads lead to a protest.

 

[IanGE]

Luther’s ninety-five theses and his subsequent unfrocking and excommunication may have lit the blue touchpaper but there were centuries of schisms (protests?) for various reasons: in the fourth century the Greek Orthodox church in Constantinople did not accept Rome’s claim to be the original true church. In the same century came the monastic rebellion by devout Christians who were scandalised by the immorality and corruption prevalent in the church in Rome. Then other precursers, notably:
Waldensians - 12th century;
Avignon Papacy - 1309 to 1377;
John Wycliffe - 1320 to 1384: his corpse was later exhumed and burnt cos he dared to translate the Bible into English and also did a Luther, opposing Papal doctrines;
Western Schism - 1378 to 1417 (two popes);
Jan Huss -c. 1369 to 1415;
Hussite Wars - 1420 - c.1434.

Luther was not the only reformer/protestant: the whole politico-religious climate of Europe was into reform (or protest, according to your bias), notably Zwingli, Calvin and Knox. Then again there were the Pilgrim Fathers who fled to America in 1620 to escape catholic persecution and the Irish who fled two centuries later during the Potato famine and also religious persecution from Protestants. Blessedly, the USA became a beacon of hope for religious tolerance. I hope it remains so, although we across the pond have heard rumours of “Obamanation/abomination”. Of course we in England can’t talk: we are supposed to be a Christian nation headed by a Queen who is also Head of the Church of England, yet the government proclaim irreligious, immoral laws. Let us pray for one another that our Christian sects unite under the banner of Jesus the Christ. At the moment our squabbles, apart from hurting Jesus God, are making us a laughing stock to non-Christians.
The Archbishop of Canterbury has warned that Atheism will over take Christianity by 2030. But even so, Jesus promised that the gates of Hell will not overthrow His Church. I stand on that Word, remembering that the centuries-long persecution of the Jews wiped them out to a mere handful of God’s faithful people (which they still are). Yet they flowered again: "In the place where it was said to them, ‘you are not my people’ they will be called ‘the children of God’.

 

[KathleenGee]

IanGE…

Are you aware of any documents of the Church, Catholic, that documents the lives of ordinary Christians and saints???

 

[tqualey]

Hi, IanGE,

You have made several serious misstatements - but, by far, the most outrageous was claiming Catholic persecution for the Pilgrams leaving England in 1620. Actually, Catholics had nothing to do with it - and, that is a fact!

Elizabeth I: 1558 - 1603
James I: 1603 - 1625
Charles I: 1625 - 1649 here is a link:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_monarchs

Yes, it was James (who was really quite repressive - and that would be Protestant King repressing Protestant subjects).

I would appreciate you identifying the error here before I proceeded.

God bless

Luther’s ninety-five theses and his subsequent unfrocking and excommunication may have lit the blue touchpaper but there were centuries of schisms (protests?) for various reasons: in the fourth century the Greek Orthodox church in Constantinople did not accept Rome’s claim to be the original true church. In the same century came the monastic rebellion by devout Christians who were scandalised by the immorality and corruption prevalent in the church in Rome. Then other precursers, notably:
Waldensians - 12th century;
Avignon Papacy - 1309 to 1377;
John Wycliffe - 1320 to 1384: his corpse was later exhumed and burnt cos he dared to translate the Bible into English and also did a Luther, opposing Papal doctrines;
Western Schism - 1378 to 1417 (two popes);
Jan Huss -c. 1369 to 1415;
Hussite Wars - 1420 - c.1434.

Luther was not the only reformer/protestant: the whole politico-religious climate of Europe was into reform (or protest, according to your bias), notably Zwingli, Calvin and Knox. Then again there were the Pilgrim Fathers who fled to America in 1620 to escape catholic persecution and the Irish who fled two centuries later during the Potato famine and also religious persecution from Protestants. Blessedly, the USA became a beacon of hope for religious tolerance. I hope it remains so, although we across the pond have heard rumours of “Obamanation/abomination”. Of course we in England can’t talk: we are supposed to be a Christian nation headed by a Queen who is also Head of the Church of England, yet the government proclaim irreligious, immoral laws. Let us pray for one another that our Christian sects unite under the banner of Jesus the Christ. At the moment our squabbles, apart from hurting Jesus God, are making us a laughing stock to non-Christians.
The Archbishop of Canterbury has warned that Atheism will over take Christianity by 2030. But even so, Jesus promised that the gates of Hell will not overthrow His Church. I stand on that Word, remembering that the centuries-long persecution of the Jews wiped them out to a mere handful of God’s faithful people (which they still are). Yet they flowered again: "In the place where it was said to them, ‘you are not my people’ they will be called ‘the children of God’.

 

[IanGE]

Hi, IanGE,

You have made several serious misstatements - but, by far, the most outrageous was claiming Catholic persecution for the Pilgrams leaving England in 1620. Actually, Catholics had nothing to do with it - and, that is a fact!

Elizabeth I: 1558 - 1603
James I: 1603 - 1625
Charles I: 1625 - 1649 here is a link:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_monarchs

Yes, it was James (who was really quite repressive - and that would be Protestant King repressing Protestant subjects).

I would appreciate you identifying the error here before I proceeded
God bless.]

James I was Catholic, son of Mary queen of Scots who had a claim to the English throne so Elizabeth I had her beheaded cos she feared Mary would bring back Catholicism. James was a wimp who upset Catholics, Puritans AND protestants, too, who feared his Catholic background. Puritans and Protestants fled from England to Holland and then via the Mayflower from Plymouth to America during his reign.
BTW You are forgetting Queen Mary 1 Tudor, eldest daughter of Henry VIII by Catholic Catherine of Aragon. Mary tried to turn the clock back and return Catholicism to England but she had a bad press and the historic title Bloody Mary cos she killed the famous 22 Protestant martyrs during her short reign. Her father and sister killed thousands of Catholics but were called Henry the Great and GOOD Queen Bess! Those were terrible times: no wonder the pilgrims left.

 

[IanGE]

IanGE…

Are you aware of any documents of the Church, Catholic, that documents the lives of ordinary Christians and saints???

Kathleen, I was baptised in 1936 and collected Holy pictures, with a short biog of the pictured saints, for years. In Catholic school we learnt more about saints than the Bible. On annual retreats we had to sit for hours in silence in the school hall, reading the lives of saints, little books and booklets which were laid out on a table. We boys used to rush to the table for the various martyrs, especially those whose martyrdoms were gory, boiled in oil, stuck with arrows or St. Catherine on that wheel.. My bookshelves still groan with St. John of the Cross, Anselm, the venerable Bede, Church Histories, lives of Popes, Padre Pio, Saint Teresa (who I love), ebullient St. Anthony (sorry that’s how I see him!), St. Francis Xavier (we went to see and photograph his 700-year-old (?) corpse in a glass coffin in Goa), and various Bibles. While researching for Charismatic activity between Paul’s time and the 1900s, I checked the Oxford Book of Saints and gave up on them cos so many bought themselves sainthood in one way or another.
When I was Born Again I fell in love with Jesus, The Father, the indwelling Holy Spirit and the Word of God in Scripture. If I wanted the answer to a question I used to open the Bible and stick my finger on the page to read whichever verse lay there. The Lord soon put a stop to that, “Ian, stop playing Bible roulette: ask ME and I will give you the word.” Since then the Holy Spirit has been my personal imprimatur: if he says NO I stop reading whatever book; often He says nothing so I continue reading. But occasionally I’m aware of the Holy Spirit delighting in a book I pick up. I refer here to ANY book: often I get wonderful Spiritual revelations from murder mysteries. Believe it or not.
I also like reading the Full Gospel “Voice” magazine which gives testimonies of various people in their walk with God and the many miracles that follow their love of Jesus. Many of these are on the phone or internet and love sharing what our great living Lord does for His Children and also non-Christians to bring them under his loving wing right now, 2000AD!

 

[Contarini]

Hi, IanGE,

You have made several serious misstatements - but, by far, the most outrageous was claiming Catholic persecution for the Pilgrams leaving England in 1620. Actually, Catholics had nothing to do with it - and, that is a fact!
/quote]

Yes, that is bizarre. It’s true that from the Puritan point of view James’ version of Anglicanism was too close to Catholicism. But as you point out, James also persecuted Catholics!

Edwin

 

[tqualey]

Hi IanGE,

I stand corrected.

“He was baptised “Charles James” on 17 December 1566 in a Catholic ceremony held at Stirling Castle. His godparents were Charles IX of France (represented by John, Count of Brienne), Elizabeth I of England (represented by the Earl of Bedford), and Emmanuel Philibert, Duke of Savoy (represented by ambassador Philibert du Croc).”

I was thinking in terms of his upbring and having the Authorized King James Bible named in his honor. But, you were correct - he was a Catholic.

God bless

tqualey;9810706:

Hi, IanGE,

You have made several serious misstatements - but, by far, the most outrageous was claiming Catholic persecution for the Pilgrams leaving England in 1620. Actually, Catholics had nothing to do with it - and, that is a fact!

Elizabeth I: 1558 - 1603
James I: 1603 - 1625
Charles I: 1625 - 1649 here is a link:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_monarchs

Yes, it was James (who was really quite repressive - and that would be Protestant King repressing Protestant subjects).

I would appreciate you identifying the error here before I proceeded
God bless.]James I was Catholic, son of Mary queen of Scots who had a claim to the English throne so Elizabeth I had her beheaded cos she feared Mary would bring back Catholicism. James was a wimp who upset Catholics, Puritans AND protestants, too, who feared his Catholic background. Puritans and Protestants fled from England to Holland and then via the Mayflower from Plymouth to America during his reign.
BTW You are forgetting Queen Mary 1 Tudor, eldest daughter of Henry VIII by Catholic Catherine of Aragon. Mary tried to turn the clock back and return Catholicism to England but she had a bad press and the historic title Bloody Mary cos she killed the famous 22 Protestant martyrs during her short reign. Her father and sister killed thousands of Catholics but were called Henry the Great and GOOD Queen Bess!

Those were terrible times: no wonder the pilgrims left.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Contarini,

Considering this guy’s early life, and how he was raised and all of the assorted pressures on him - well - I guess it is a wonder he didn’t wind up more messed up!

God bless

tqualey;9810706:

Hi, IanGE,

You have made several serious misstatements - but, by far, the most outrageous was claiming Catholic persecution for the Pilgrams leaving England in 1620. Actually, Catholics had nothing to do with it - and, that is a fact!

/quote]

Yes, that is bizarre. It’s true that from the Puritan point of view James’ version of Anglicanism was too close to Catholicism. But as you point out, James also persecuted Catholics!

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Hi, Contarini,

Considering this guy’s early life, and how he was raised and all of the assorted pressures on him - well - I guess it is a wonder he didn’t wind up more messed up!

God bless

It’s not clear to me that James’ persecuting behavior had anything to do with being “messed up” personally–except in the sense that life in the early modern period was generally fairly harsh and pervaded by the belief (in family life as well as public affairs) that people were deeply sinful and needed strict discipline in order to restrain that sinfulness. In other words, lots of rulers persecuted. If anything, what distinguished James was his zeal for Christian unity–he actually made efforts to bring about Protestant-Catholic reunion, and he was one of the few people on either side at that point who tried to do this.

He persecuted both Puritans and Catholics because both groups were threats to his authority.

Edwin

 

[IanGE]

Hi IanGE,

I stand corrected.

“He was baptised “Charles James” on 17 December 1566 in a Catholic ceremony held at Stirling Castle. His godparents were Charles IX of France (represented by John, Count of Brienne), Elizabeth I of England (represented by the Earl of Bedford), and Emmanuel Philibert, Duke of Savoy (represented by ambassador Philibert du Croc).”

**I was thinking in terms of his upbring and having the Authorized King James Bible named in his honor. ** But, you were correct - he was a Catholic.

God bless

That’s another curious fact about Jimmy’s behaviour: was he trying to be all things to all men? And of course, it was Catholics who tried to blow James up! Each year when Guy Fawkes day comes around (in Britain) I tell the kids: Guy Fawkes was a fellow Catholic, I ain’t giving a penny for him to burnt again!
BTW If you get a chance to see Guido Fawkes painfully scrawled signature on his “voluntary” confession to the gunpowder plot you will almost feel his torture!

PS Thank you tqualey for opening (or is it closing?) another door for me. I always thought that the King James version shamed the Catholics to finally translating the Bible into English. But my little Google trip just now revealed that the Douay-Rheims came out in 1582 and the King James in 1611. What the heck was James playing at?

 

[GKC]

tqualey;9813172:

Hi IanGE,

I stand corrected.

“He was baptised “Charles James” on 17 December 1566 in a Catholic ceremony held at Stirling Castle. His godparents were Charles IX of France (represented by John, Count of Brienne), Elizabeth I of England (represented by the Earl of Bedford), and Emmanuel Philibert, Duke of Savoy (represented by ambassador Philibert du Croc).”

**I was thinking in terms of his upbring and having the Authorized King James Bible named in his honor. **

But, you were correct - he was a Catholic.

God bless

That’s another curious fact about Jimmy’s behaviour: was he trying to be all things to all men? And of course, it was Catholics who tried to blow James up! Each year when Guy Fawkes day comes around (in Britain) I tell the kids: Guy Fawkes was a fellow Catholic, I ain’t giving a penny for him to burnt again!
BTW If you get a chance to see Guido Fawkes painfully scrawled signature on his “voluntary” confession to the gunpowder plot you will almost feel his torture!

PS Thank you tqualey for opening (or is it closing?) another door for me. I always thought that the King James version shamed the Catholics to finally translating the Bible into English. But my little Google trip just now revealed that the Douay-Rheims came out in 1582 and the King James in 1611. What the heck was James playing at?

I think you might get a few replies on this take on history, too.

GKC

 

[Contarini]

tqualey;9813172:

I always thought that the King James version shamed the Catholics to finally translating the Bible into English. But my little Google trip just now revealed that the Douay-Rheims came out in 1582 and the King James in 1611. What the heck was James playing at?

He wasn’t playing at anything. The KJV drew on nearly a century of Bible translation, including the D-R (which had been the last major translation–there were a lot of earlier Protestant ones). The purpose was to create one magisterial translation that would replace the others.

Edwin

 

[KathleenGee]

Thanks, IanGE, for sharing with me more about your background and sorry for my misunderstanding!

I can see where you are coming from. I think the regimentation and where you are being filled with so much of the Catholic spirituality…but not allowed much to synthesize, express, and live out all this information is similar but with different materials for our Catholic high school youth here.

One that is a great help to seniors is Ignatian spiritual discernment…at their level, – to help them discern the Holy Spirit leading them.

But in English speaking culture, as we are so driven, it takes alot of time for our hearts and emotions to catch up with all the good spirituality.

I do have caution though. Alot of Catholics left the Church, who had become charismatic, and went into non-denominational, spirit filled communities. So it put a black eye on pastors, seeing this movement take people out of the Church. Yet the Church needs so much the spiritual gifts of the charismata and its subsequent work in renewing, imbibing, empowering us to become more evangelical in our witness to the world.

I remember a Dominican charismatic priest. He was very much orientated towards theology and had a wit about him. But then he was renewed in the Holy Spirit, and was so much on fire for the love of Christ and everyone he met, and had this delightful sense of humor that reflected the directive by our Lord to become as little children, to trust in Him…and this priest was like that. We considered him a saint.

And this indoctrination without expression is one of the things Martin Luther was recognizing.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Contarini,

I really can not take credit for this quote on ‘playing’. You may want to contact IanGE on this one… To the best of my knowledge, this King James Version was not the first time that the Bible had been printed in English. Here is a link: gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/english.stm

God bless

IanGE;9815573:

He wasn’t playing at anything. The KJV drew on nearly a century of Bible translation, including the D-R (which had been the last major translation–there were a lot of earlier Protestant ones). The purpose was to create one magisterial translation that would replace the others.

Edwin

 

[IanGE]

Hi, Contarini,

I really can not take credit for this quote on ‘playing’. You may want to contact IanGE on this one… To the best of my knowledge, this King James Version was not the first time that the Bible had been printed in English. Here is a link: gbgm-umc.org/umw/bible/english.stm

God bless
Contarini;9821016:
Indeed, English versions of the Bible go back centuries before KJV: I believe even the Venerable Bede translated some parts. But whereas he was declared a saint, Wycliffe was declared a heretic and his English translations were burnt: so was he, after he died. He was exhumed and burnt and the ashes tossed into a nearby river. Miles Coverdale was craftier: he dedicated his translation to Henry VIII and got off scot free.
I don’t know about America, but the British Museum in London has several, if not most, of the early English versions. I went on a pilgrimage there many decades ago and there were also two of the earliest Greek codices on display: Codex Alexandrinus (sp?) and the codex Sinaiticus; the third, Codex Vaticanus is of course in Rome. I simply could not read the pages that were open (under glass): the text was continuous capital letters, no punctuation, no sentences, let alone paragraphs. St. Jerome must have had an arduous task sorting those out before translating into Latin. Although I was surprised to read when Googling just now that there were TWO other Latin versions that preceded Jerome.
BTW the translations to medieval English (eg. the Great?) were also just about impossible for a non-scholar like me to read. But I vaguely remember there were modern English translations of the page on display, which help.

 

[FightingFat]

Did Luther defy the pope’s orders and get excommunicated and intentionally start protestantism? Like did he really want to break off from the Church? I was thinking about this because my aunt mentioned that Luther even asked for a priest when he was on his deathbed for Last Rites, can anyone confirm this? Thanks

I think he was devastated by what resulted from his actions, as was Erasmus.