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Chris_LaRock
Guest
My copy of Luther’s Small Catechism states that it’s only symbolic.
Did Martin Luther believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist? If so, why don't today's non-Catholic Christians believe it?
- Status
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vocatio
Guest
Many do. Many, like myself while strayed away, did beleive in the real presence. We/me came to beleive by the power of proselytizing anti-Catholics that the Catholic Church made all of this holy orders stuff up. And because scripture says that we share in Christ’s inheritance as priest, prophet and king" it follows, in my view at the time, that all of us are capable of consecrating the bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ. I did this many years at the “Lord’s Table”. We refered to it as “waiting on the table”. While reading about baptisms other than submersion in the didache I turned white as a ghost and realized that if I got this one wrong then what else did we get wrong. So I research all the issues blown out of truth. I learned if you carefully read the Epistles of Paul to Timothy warning him to be careful who he lays hands on. Why? Ordination. You see we were taught that Paul was just and evangelist, not a bishop like my father-in-law and other family members. Timothy was just a preacher too. This was determined by the description of the requirements for being Elders and Deacons. It’s funny but understanding how someone can distort this without having the fullness of the faith. But now it’s much more clear, even though I’m a revert. Assuming my dad knows now, hoping he’s in heaven or at least purgatory, he must be happy. Mom was never Catholic.
So Catholics misunderstand the diversity of Protestant beleifs just as much as Protestants or non-Catholics or “members” of the “Church of Christ” [as establish with the “church restoration movement” by Alexander Campbell and Stone] or “Christians” [only] as prefered by that latter group of beleivers. I can’t help but laugh at well meaning Catholics for misunderstanding our separated brothers and sisters in Christ. That’s a twist huh?
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vocatio
Guest
Luthers last prayer was for the intercessory prayer of our Blessed Mother Mary the perpetual Virgin. He also went to confession before death. Did you know he was an Augustinian Monk/Priest? He even wore his habit for about 3 years after being excommunicated. So I’ve learned form a program on EWTN on the Journey Home. By a Lutheran convert to Catholicism.
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TriuneUnity
Guest
Uhm, Luther’s last prayer as recorded by Melancthon and Justus Jonas was “My Heavenly Father, eternal Compassionate God, you have revealed to me your beloved Son our LORD Jesus Christ whom I have known, of whom I have acquaintance, whom I love, and whom I honor as my beloved Savior and Redeemer, whom the Godless persecute, dissipate, and reproach. Take my Soul to you. This he said three times: 'Into your hands I commend my Spirit, you have redeemed me God of truth. And God so loved the world…”
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Shellina1
Guest
Speaking as a non-denom (United Methodist Leaning if I had to pick) that is learning from the Catholic Church so much, I will tell you that the reason is simple and just like some Catholics…
it’s lack of knowledge of the faith…
Difference between a Catholic and a Protestant (and don’t shoot me down on this) is a Catholic may not understand something out of lack of knowledge, but if the church tells them…will on faith assume that the church is smarter and has faith in the teachings of the church and will call it their belief.
Protestants if they don’t understand something and it appears to be “catholic” will say they don’t believe it simply for the fact that most Catholics tell them when explaining that the church says so, so have faith and trust it…hence therefore why they don’t bother to educate themselves on the subject pray and determine whether they believe it or not.
The lack of faith happens on both sides but in different ways…the subject of the Eucarist something that I was NEVER taught in the non-denom I attended and was simply viewed as a better ask for giveness before the cup gets passed down…and then my Catholic friends took me and were so terrified that they might forget to confess all their sins that they would be almost too afraid to even participate or touch the Eucharist if it fell on accident…out of fear they’d be struck by lightening or something.
I personally am learning more of the Eucharist and the teachings of the Church and Christ on it…but the answer is…most don’t believe simply out of lack of knowledge…whether I personally think it becomes the body of Christ…I’m learning and praying and haven’t understood it all yet to know what I think.
I think it would be cool if instead of arguing why people reject it…is to have someone that is Catholic explain it on here…I’d be interested to read a Catholic’s view on it…I’ve read the Cathecisim (sorry I’m a horrible speller) but a personal view on the Eucharist.
it’s lack of knowledge of the faith…
Difference between a Catholic and a Protestant (and don’t shoot me down on this) is a Catholic may not understand something out of lack of knowledge, but if the church tells them…will on faith assume that the church is smarter and has faith in the teachings of the church and will call it their belief.
Protestants if they don’t understand something and it appears to be “catholic” will say they don’t believe it simply for the fact that most Catholics tell them when explaining that the church says so, so have faith and trust it…hence therefore why they don’t bother to educate themselves on the subject pray and determine whether they believe it or not.
The lack of faith happens on both sides but in different ways…the subject of the Eucarist something that I was NEVER taught in the non-denom I attended and was simply viewed as a better ask for giveness before the cup gets passed down…and then my Catholic friends took me and were so terrified that they might forget to confess all their sins that they would be almost too afraid to even participate or touch the Eucharist if it fell on accident…out of fear they’d be struck by lightening or something.
I personally am learning more of the Eucharist and the teachings of the Church and Christ on it…but the answer is…most don’t believe simply out of lack of knowledge…whether I personally think it becomes the body of Christ…I’m learning and praying and haven’t understood it all yet to know what I think.
I think it would be cool if instead of arguing why people reject it…is to have someone that is Catholic explain it on here…I’d be interested to read a Catholic’s view on it…I’ve read the Cathecisim (sorry I’m a horrible speller) but a personal view on the Eucharist.
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O.S.Luke
Guest
The word “symbolic” is nowhere in the Small Catechism.
This is what it says:
Where does it say that it’s symbolic?
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mark_a
Guest
Wow, what a beautiful prayer!
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vocatio
Guest
Maybe I misunderstood, it’s been a while. But I understand that Luther was very affectionate towards the Blessed Mother. Not to be is kind of ignorant I think once you understand that she said “yes” in honor and obedience to God. She did have free will you know. And since we believe she is up there with the Saints and Moses and Elijah too we ask for her to pray for us too. That took me a while to grasp.
You know the person I spoke about on EWTN could have mistated it. I just know vaguely because I was really struggling with Marian doctrine at the time. I was an evangelical Christian.
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TriuneUnity
Guest
Luther’s view, and the view of the Lutheran Church historically has been one of balance in our view of the saints who have gone to be with Christ. We honor the saints, both in icon and image, and of course name our parishes after them. Technically, any Christian is a saint, but those of great virtue should be emulated inasmuch as they emulated Christ (even Paul says to do this). The difference is invocation. Since Christ is our only mediator of grace with the Father, we rely on Him exclusively for our petitions.
Luther himself held that the Blessed Mother was a perpetual virgin. So it would be correct to say he held her in high esteem (as we all should); but devotion…no…that would be revisionism of his true views towards her.
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vocatio
Guest
You’ve stated basically what Catholics beleive. It sounds like Lutherans are almost Catholic. I’m wokring with a friend/engineer right now on a huge sewer project. He’ Lutheran too. Since I became…or in my case returned to Catholicism I’ve wanted to ask him more questions.
All we do really is ask for the Saints fo intercede on our behalf in much the same way that we would has our family and friends to pray for us. YES! All baptized Christians are saints. The emphasis in the Catholic church to clarify the differnce between saints on Earth and Saints in Heaven is with the big letter S. Is it necessary, no not really, but if does help. The same is true with the word “tradition”. We use the big letter “T” to denote Sacred Tradition as understood by the Jews and the Church and passed on in the “fullness of truth” by Christ and passed on down through the Church by way of the Apostles, leaders of the Church. It’s amatter of syntax you might say and definition. I find that many non-Catholics have much of the same view as we do but only use different words and frankly add new meaning to words to mean something different. Example: A friend of mine, a former bible chair director and now a preacher, used to try to convince people that the word “meak” means something different today than it did when the bible was put together. He say it means “BOLD” “Assertive”. That’s just rediculous.
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TriuneUnity
Guest
The difference here between the Lutheran and Catholic views on the saints is threefold. I’ll list them for clarification:
- We don’t differentiate between saints who are alive and saints who are dead other than their temporal location.
- Aside from the biblical prohibitions against communication with the dead, in order for the saints with Christ to respond and hear the petitions of the living, they would have to possess two attributes of God that are incommunicable; namely, omniscience and omnipresence.
- The Catholic distinctions between dulia and latria are meaningless, for the purposes of prayer. Prayer is a form of worship reserved for God alone; specifically, to Christ our mediator.
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vocatio
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TU
I understand clearly what you are saying. But the fact is that the sciptures reveal the facts of people venerating beings other than God … an angel for example. Thanks for the clarification. I see we have a really long way to go before we get to the crux of the matter. My readings of Luther describe him as a very scrupulous man. My son is overly scrupulous, but he’s only 13 and was like this before becoming Catholic. I personally attribute scrupulocity not to sin, but rather to mental illness. My view of things might offend people so I’ll reserve it for a more appropriate time.
If I take the time to research the Jorney Home with Marcus Grodi, who incidentally was raised Lutheran before moving to become a Calvanst, Presbyterian minister, I’ll post my reasearch here or a new thread.
BTW: I read somewhere that statistically speaking more Lutherans beleive in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist than do Catholics. But I also read that the question may have not been asked properly for Catholics. Who knows for sure…I’ll post that too if I run across it again.
I understand clearly what you are saying. But the fact is that the sciptures reveal the facts of people venerating beings other than God … an angel for example. Thanks for the clarification. I see we have a really long way to go before we get to the crux of the matter. My readings of Luther describe him as a very scrupulous man. My son is overly scrupulous, but he’s only 13 and was like this before becoming Catholic. I personally attribute scrupulocity not to sin, but rather to mental illness. My view of things might offend people so I’ll reserve it for a more appropriate time.
If I take the time to research the Jorney Home with Marcus Grodi, who incidentally was raised Lutheran before moving to become a Calvanst, Presbyterian minister, I’ll post my reasearch here or a new thread.
BTW: I read somewhere that statistically speaking more Lutherans beleive in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist than do Catholics. But I also read that the question may have not been asked properly for Catholics. Who knows for sure…I’ll post that too if I run across it again.
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TriuneUnity
Guest
Can you give an example? No rush, of course.
Scrupulosity is never a good thing. It tends to invent sins rather than focusing on what God clearly commands we abstain from or do. For us to call things sins which are adiaphora (neither forbidden or commanded) is to put ourselves in the position of God. I am not sure whether or not Luther did this, as he never disclosed what had caused him guilt. Being that he gave lengthy sermons about the dangers of overscrupulousness… it would be hard to say they were invented sins.
I’ve talked with Marcus Grodi in person a couple of times. Nice guy. The Presbyterian church he used to minister at is about 3 or 4 miles from me…it’s a good thing he left. The place has become a liberal mainline hellhole.
Not sure about the statistics. Of course, Confessionally, they are required to believe in the Real Presence. But so are Catholics, and it doesn’t need to be said about that sorry situation
Talk to you soon, St. Voci
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SIA
Guest
this is not true.
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vocatio
Guest
SIA, which part is not true?
TU…I want to say Texas Tech or University of Texas so bad…Guess cause I’m in Texas…
Anyway. I will give you one example. But first. I’ve spoken with several people that have appeared on his show. Two mainly from my denomination…Church of Christ. I am a former Catholic Seminarian. I was planning on becoming a Chaplain in the Army when I met my wife and her family literally took me to the cleaners on issues I was already having problems discerning. Some of which you would disagree with too. But Catholics became victim within our own home. Not all but enough to cause the chaos. I’m very picky dealing with this stuff. I don’ accept things without scrutinizing them.
Oh before I forget: Angels Venerated:
Jos 5:14
Dan 8:17
Tob 12:16
Mt 18:10
A couple extra for more information.
2heartsnetwork.org/apologetics.htm
I found this site trying to remember which passages to look up. It’s wealth of information…but I haven’t checked it out thoroughly so I’m reserving my opinion of it until I check it out further. I apologize if I misunderstood what I heard on the Journey Home program… I didn’t say as “fact”…I’m still learning about other faith as well. But if you know where I came from you would not have liked me then…church of Christ beleive all are going to hell except the church of Christ in that restoration church movement. I know much about Catholicim, Baptist, Orthodox, Pentecostal and Church of Christ/Disciples of Christ/Chrisitna Church. We have a family full of preachers, teachers, elders/bishops and deacons. I had a scholarship for ACU to become a Chaplain. But God had other plans…we’re all Catholic now.
TU…I want to say Texas Tech or University of Texas so bad…Guess cause I’m in Texas…
Anyway. I will give you one example. But first. I’ve spoken with several people that have appeared on his show. Two mainly from my denomination…Church of Christ. I am a former Catholic Seminarian. I was planning on becoming a Chaplain in the Army when I met my wife and her family literally took me to the cleaners on issues I was already having problems discerning. Some of which you would disagree with too. But Catholics became victim within our own home. Not all but enough to cause the chaos. I’m very picky dealing with this stuff. I don’ accept things without scrutinizing them.
Oh before I forget: Angels Venerated:
Jos 5:14
Dan 8:17
Tob 12:16
Mt 18:10
A couple extra for more information.
2heartsnetwork.org/apologetics.htm
I found this site trying to remember which passages to look up. It’s wealth of information…but I haven’t checked it out thoroughly so I’m reserving my opinion of it until I check it out further. I apologize if I misunderstood what I heard on the Journey Home program… I didn’t say as “fact”…I’m still learning about other faith as well. But if you know where I came from you would not have liked me then…church of Christ beleive all are going to hell except the church of Christ in that restoration church movement. I know much about Catholicim, Baptist, Orthodox, Pentecostal and Church of Christ/Disciples of Christ/Chrisitna Church. We have a family full of preachers, teachers, elders/bishops and deacons. I had a scholarship for ACU to become a Chaplain. But God had other plans…we’re all Catholic now.
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TriuneUnity
Guest
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vocatio
Guest
Looks like you have all the answers…BCV closed.
I’m amazed atthe lengths Protestants go to justify their solo scriptura doctrine based on false premisis and straw man arguements. That’s why Luther bent over backwards to justify getting rid of the deuterocanonical texts. Those are traditional anti-Catholic /Orthodox tactics justified and drilled into the minds outside the truth. I’m not trying to start an argument, but you have some gumption to just blow off everything your dealt…you’d make a good church of Christer…and if you knew what that meant to me you’d avoid me in public places…their on my “S” list. They are the meanest group of so called “Christian” I’ve even known…they put Jack Chick to shame only they attack folks like you too. These are not the arguements that have convinced me that asking for Saints to pray for us…I have many other reasons I won’t share with someone that has little to no respect for my faith. I reserve them for people that really care and have an open heart to hear truth. You see, non-Catholics hanging out on a Catholic website is peculiar to me…it reaks of proselytization…waiting for the right moment to convince some poor weak minded Catholic of the error in their ways…to “save” them…as if they really knew the truth based on lies.
How do we have the bible…where did it come from…who decided which books are inspired…you see, all of these questions haunted me for decades, not years…not months, weeks or days. I’ve been at this for a long time and frankly I don’t bother to talk with folks that “Have all the answers”…book closed. You heart does not seem open to hearing our beliefs and frankly, you’re not a Catholic on a Catholic forum that makes me suspicious of you in the first place. It’s true that Catholics have distorted perceptions of the various Protestant faiths out their, but the fact still remains that other faiths are deeply disordered and teaching false doctrine against the teaching of the ancient Church of the early Christians. I don’t claim to know it all, but I can say that based on your repeated responses, I must know more than you… that said, I apologize but am making it clear that if you wish to continue discussion with me in particular keep it light and honest…but don’t engage in that bull malarky with me…I’m not a young man anymore and don’t have time to waste on protestant distorted truth. I present what I do know…and if I don’t know it …like the last prayer of Martin Luther stuff… then so be it…I don’t claim expertise… PEOPLE always be suspicious of someone, an individual or small group, that claims to have ALL the answers, especially when it comes to trying to convince us that the real history just ain’t true. That is just simply crazy.
You knew what I’d put up before I put it up. I knew that, but as a gesture of kindness towards my seperated bretheren I thought I’d engage in a more positive appraoch. You bit my hand and I’ll bite your head off if you do it again. I tried to be peaceful…now don’t push my temper into sinful anger. I’m not that transformed yet. Working on it. But your lack of charity frankly P’s me off. I’m sure I’ll regret this later and be embarrassed by it. Now I have kids to take care of and I’ll leave my anger to sizzle for a while while I calm down. knucklehead.
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Formosus
Guest
Close. Luther beleived in Consubstantiation, where the Bread and Wine is both Breat and Wine, and the Body and Blood of Christ. He viewed transubstantiation as destructive and unbecomming of a loving God since it, in his view, required the destruction of the bread and wine in order to bring about the transformation to the Body and Blood.
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vocatio
Guest
I tried to edit my post to clean it up a bit and frankly was a little mifffed at the lameness of the response to my charitable post at your request TU. I’m sad that you chose such a tactic in your response. It was manipulative and very uncharitable. It smells of a lurking attack. You knew at least some of the scriptures I’d post. It amazes me that so many folks really think they read better than others when in fact they are blinded by their own regimented false indoctrination. The “knucklehead” remark goes back to a very Christian drill instructor that I highly respected, even to this day. He was my favorite drill. He used to affectionately call us knuckleheads for doing silly things. Don’t take it with negative conotations as it sounds. It was my military way of lightening up my post while I was a bit miffed. Then I had a stroke of sanity hit me and realized that it might not be received that way.
So if it truly offended you, I appologize, it was meant in a funny way. I do not like CAF’s forum policy of closing editing only after 20 minutes. Can you tell that CAF was started by an attorney? Attorneys are so controlling and really often think they’re more intellegent that everyone around them. They tend to be narcissistic. Engineers do too,
. But I really try to be nice. It’s just that I’ve been beat up unfairly so many times in my life by idiots claiming to have all the answers. And most of them had different and opposing views. They can’t all be right. That’s one reason I believe in going back to the early church. It points to what the early Christians really beleived…not like all the rebels like Luther, Calvin, Stone, Campbell, etc. I’ve had my fill of those guys. Now I try to learn and share what I do know and check what I don’t…like Luther’s last prayer. All kinds of things. Even if you can come up with a good answer that sounds good if I don’t know the truth I still suspect wrong until I can check it all out. I’ve accepted the Catholic teaching, even things I don’t understand because it would take many lifetimes to learn all that has been revealed. But that isn’t necessary. We have basic doctrines that are placed before us to believe. We don’t have to pray to Saints. But its kind of sad that people really fail to realize this and fail to realize why its really rediculous. But the Church in her wisdom doesn’t bash us on the head in spite of what you may believe. We are all children of God. We have free will. I suspect that Luther became rather mentally challenged in his days of being excommunicated. He probably became angry and really went over the top…I’ve been there. I know how that feels. If you’ve never converted from one faith to another you might have a difficult time understanding my point. I DON’T have all the answers. But I am giving my worthless 2cents on the matter. After studying the lives of other resformation movement folks I’m convinced they meant well and that the Church failed to teach correctly and gently why they were wrong. I’m not concerned for their souls as much as they are of mine. I believe they have a chance even if they are not Catholic. But I also beleive I have a chance because I am Catholic. At one time I was a fundamentalist that believed all of you were bound to hell for refusing to open your hearts to the truth. Now that I realize the truth of the historical Church I’m more prone to be more humble about that kind of trash. Who knows, Mohamid might be in heave too. It’s not up to us to determine. But denying basic history is just academic dishonesty and severely distorted. That’s like trying to justify the found fathers of the USA wanted a country where religious folks couldn’t speak their faith in public places.
So if it truly offended you, I appologize, it was meant in a funny way. I do not like CAF’s forum policy of closing editing only after 20 minutes. Can you tell that CAF was started by an attorney? Attorneys are so controlling and really often think they’re more intellegent that everyone around them. They tend to be narcissistic. Engineers do too,
. But I really try to be nice. It’s just that I’ve been beat up unfairly so many times in my life by idiots claiming to have all the answers. And most of them had different and opposing views. They can’t all be right. That’s one reason I believe in going back to the early church. It points to what the early Christians really beleived…not like all the rebels like Luther, Calvin, Stone, Campbell, etc. I’ve had my fill of those guys. Now I try to learn and share what I do know and check what I don’t…like Luther’s last prayer. All kinds of things. Even if you can come up with a good answer that sounds good if I don’t know the truth I still suspect wrong until I can check it all out. I’ve accepted the Catholic teaching, even things I don’t understand because it would take many lifetimes to learn all that has been revealed. But that isn’t necessary. We have basic doctrines that are placed before us to believe. We don’t have to pray to Saints. But its kind of sad that people really fail to realize this and fail to realize why its really rediculous. But the Church in her wisdom doesn’t bash us on the head in spite of what you may believe. We are all children of God. We have free will. I suspect that Luther became rather mentally challenged in his days of being excommunicated. He probably became angry and really went over the top…I’ve been there. I know how that feels. If you’ve never converted from one faith to another you might have a difficult time understanding my point. I DON’T have all the answers. But I am giving my worthless 2cents on the matter. After studying the lives of other resformation movement folks I’m convinced they meant well and that the Church failed to teach correctly and gently why they were wrong. I’m not concerned for their souls as much as they are of mine. I believe they have a chance even if they are not Catholic. But I also beleive I have a chance because I am Catholic. At one time I was a fundamentalist that believed all of you were bound to hell for refusing to open your hearts to the truth. Now that I realize the truth of the historical Church I’m more prone to be more humble about that kind of trash. Who knows, Mohamid might be in heave too. It’s not up to us to determine. But denying basic history is just academic dishonesty and severely distorted. That’s like trying to justify the found fathers of the USA wanted a country where religious folks couldn’t speak their faith in public places.- Status