Did Martin Luther regret the Reformation

[ignatius777]

If he didn’t before his death, he does now.

~Liza

Interesting point

 

[UniversalistGuy]

Ok fair enough I will withdraw my comment …“talk about pride”. That is unfair.

Well said and thank you.

As for the congresswoman it was not her that I was referring to when her name was offered. I am struggling with why you cant see that. Its the shooter I was talking about and NOT her but she is the way I reference the shooter since I could careless about his name. Do you understand? If he were to tell you he thought he was doing the “right” thing would you say that we give him the “benefit of the doubt”? My point is simply that because you believe something is “right” that dont make it so and its not a justification for any given action.

I guess the reason I can’t see is because I’m not Catholic. I’m only checking it out. I’ve got as far as Sola Scriptura causing a lot of confusion and making it hard to see what’s true and what’s not true but even so there are a lot of things inside the Catholic church that seem all wrong to me. Then there’s the Orthodox Church as well. All of which makes it tough on an inquirer.

But I do agree that just because you believe something is right doesn’t make it right. Somebody could be sincerely wrong. But they might not necessarily be wrong either. So the way I have to approach this is to assume that Martin Luther meant well but that he might have been mistaken. I’ve no reason to go any other route because I’m outside and I have no agenda. However I have to make the same assumption about the Catholic Church - that they mean well but might be mistaken. On the other hand they might be right. I don’t like being around non-Catholics that sneer about Catholicism because that isn’t fair. So I don’t like to hear Catholics saying mean things about non-Catholics. People doing this stuff doesn’t help me decide which is right. It’s very distracting. If a Catholic thought the Catholic Church was wrong he’d leave it. But I’m not a Catholic so if I decide that the Catholic Church is wrong I won’t join it. I’m a don’t know. Or maybe I’m a not sure. See?

 

[UniversalistGuy]

Did Martin Luther regret the Reformation

Why on earth would you post such a vile comment? Do you honestly think that non-Catholics who come to this website to check out the Catholic Church would be drawn to a Church whose members like to engage in such childish taunts? Does your priest say such things in his pulpit? Shame on you.

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

Why on earth would you post such a vile comment? Do you honestly think that non-Catholics who come to this website to check out the Catholic Church would be drawn to a Church whose members like to engage in such childish taunts? Does your priest say such things in his pulpit? Shame on you.

They’re discussing the merits of this gem on another thread.

So, I doubt that ML regretted the Reformation, all things considered.

 

[guanophore]

I'm sorry if this topic does not fit, I couldn't think of anywhere else to ask my question.

YOu chose rightly.

 I used to have a book that told me Martin Luther himself regretted the Reformation saying that his spreading the Gospel has produced madness.

I am not sure it is accurate to say he regretted the Reformation. He was right in many of his criticisms about the behavior of corrupt clerics and the gross lack of proper catechesis. He regretted some of his methods, because he saw how they destabliized the Church, the faith of the people, and created more dissention.

It seems if he were alive today he would be very upset about the divisions he caused.

Clearly he did regret this, by the statements he made at the end of his life. He realized the doctrine of Sola Scriptura he invented created more problems and divisions when separated from the Church. He recognized why the Teaching Authority was so essential.

Every person can now intepret Scripture as they please,

Well, they always could! When you look at the early heresies, it is clear that this was going on from the beginning. People that did this were called heretics. Read Justin Martryr “Against Heresies”.

learning from Luther;s example and break away from their church when they don't agree. Is this what Luther would have wanted? Was this the 'madness " he spoke of?

The ecclesiasitical division produced political division, class division, and ultimately, deaths.

Second, I would appreciate it if someone can give me a document or statement supposting the idea Luther regretted the Reformation. I don't hear about this aspect of Christian history very much seeing as how many modern-day Christians exalt Luther as a hero instead of admitting he made a big mistake.

Thank you everyone and pax Domini vobiscum, Puella Latina.

You will not find any such document penned by Luther - only some scattered references. Children of the Reformation do with Luther the same thing they do with Scripture (pick out the parts that suit their purposes and ignore those that don’t).

 

[ignatius777]

Well said and thank you.

I guess the reason I can’t see is because I’m not Catholic. I’m only checking it out. I’ve got as far as Sola Scriptura causing a lot of confusion and making it hard to see what’s true and what’s not true but even so there are a lot of things inside the Catholic church that seem all wrong to me. Then there’s the Orthodox Church as well. All of which makes it tough on an inquirer.

But I do agree that just because you believe something is right doesn’t make it right. Somebody could be sincerely wrong. But they might not necessarily be wrong either. So the way I have to approach this is to assume that Martin Luther meant well but that he might have been mistaken. I’ve no reason to go any other route because I’m outside and I have no agenda. However I have to make the same assumption about the Catholic Church - that they mean well but might be mistaken. On the other hand they might be right. I don’t like being around non-Catholics that sneer about Catholicism because that isn’t fair. So I don’t like to hear Catholics saying mean things about non-Catholics. People doing this stuff doesn’t help me decide which is right. It’s very distracting. If a Catholic thought the Catholic Church was wrong he’d leave it. But I’m not a Catholic so if I decide that the Catholic Church is wrong I won’t join it. I’m a don’t know. Or maybe I’m a not sure. See?

Would you be so kind as to share one thing that you think the catholic church is all worng about?

I have no doubt whatsoever that luther meant well and that he intended to do a very good thing but if it wasnt his intention to split the church he missed more then a few opportunities to avoid it which didnt happen. That suggest to me that for whatever reason his motivations changed.

 

[lizaanne]

Why on earth would you post such a vile comment? Do you honestly think that non-Catholics who come to this website to check out the Catholic Church would be drawn to a Church whose members like to engage in such childish taunts? Does your priest say such things in his pulpit? Shame on you.

I am Catholic. This is a Catholic message forum. The OP did not say that Catholics could not respond. I believe that all souls, at the time of death, are exposed to the Fullness of Truth which is Catholic. That being the case, Luther surely knows now what damage he has done to the Bride of Christ. He was (on some levels) a devout Catholic himself, so I would imagine that seeing the horrific division among Christians has indeed caused great regret. This is not a “childish taunt”, and yes I’m sure my priests would say this, because they are not afraid to speak the Truth.

Shame on me??!! Calm down already.

~Liza

 

[Heliotropium]

**Did Martin Luther regret the Reformation **

I don’t know if he did or didn’t regret what he did. The Link provided by one of the members (thank you very much for that btw) with Luther’s quotes clearly shows that he did not like the outcome of his actions. I believe Luther regretted his actions but if he was sorry for what he did is only something God and Luther know. I can only hope and pray that Luther had contrition for his sins and pleaded for God’s forgiveness for what he had done. If he didn’t do this and died in his sins then I guarantee you he regretted it.

Regardless we should hope for the best for Luther and pray for the repose of his soul since if he is in purgatory our prayers can help him get to God. Of course If he is in Heaven by Gods Mercy or Hell by Gods Justice then we need not pray for him but never the less our prayers will go to the souls in purgatory who do need them.

"It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins" (2 Mach. 12 :46)

 

[Reservoir_Dog]

… The Link provided by one of the members (thank you very much for that btw) with Luther’s quotes clearly shows that he did not like the outcome of his actions. …

No one could possibly be happy with the way Catholic and Lutheran warlords depopulated Europe during the religious wars that followed – up to a third of the German population killed and the country laid waste during the Thirty Years War.

 

[UniversalistGuy]

UniversalistGuy;7491500:

Why on earth would you post such a vile comment? Do you honestly think that non-Catholics who come to this website to check out the Catholic Church would be drawn to a Church whose members like to engage in such childish taunts? Does your priest say such things in his pulpit? Shame on you.

They’re discussing the merits of this gem on another thread.

So, I doubt that ML regretted the Reformation, all things considered.

The snarling invective of triumphalism abounds. Thanks for the links.

 

[UniversalistGuy]

Would you be so kind as to share one thing that you think the catholic church is all worng about?

Clerical celibacy. I think Father Martin Luther would approve of married priests and would not for one moment have any regrets that Protestant pastors have followed the example of the first pope and taken wives.

 

[Cat_Herder]

Clerical celibacy. I think Father Martin Luther would approve of married priests and would not for one moment have any regrets that Protestant pastors have followed the example of the first pope and taken wives.

… As opposed of following the example of Paul and Jesus Himself?

[BIBLEDRB]1 Corinthians 7:8-9[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Cor 7:27[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]1 Cor 7:32-38[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Matthew 19:3-12[/BIBLEDRB]
[BIBLEDRB]Revelation 14:3-5[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[ignatius777]

Clerical celibacy. I think Father Martin Luther would approve of married priests and would not for one moment have any regrets that Protestant pastors have followed the example of the first pope and taken wives.

Well apart from the fact that there is plenty of scriptural evidence for the practice of celibate clergy its just that a practice. To the best of my knowledge luther believed enough in the practice to become a priest himself and I dont believe he ever took a wife even after the reformation began. But aside from you not liking the practice what obstacle to belief do you think is presented by the practice of celibate clergy?

 

[UniversalistGuy]

UniversalistGuy;7491797:

Clerical celibacy. I think Father Martin Luther would approve of married priests and would not for one moment have any regrets that Protestant pastors have followed the example of the first pope and taken wives.

… As opposed of following the example of Paul and Jesus Himself?

Sorry, I should have said forcible clerical celibacy. Peter chose to get married, Paul didn’t, and Jesus chose not to say anything about the issue one way or the other.

 

[ignatius777]

Sorry, I should have said forcible clerical celibacy. Peter chose to get married, Paul didn’t, and Jesus chose not to say anything about the issue one way or the other.

No one is forced to be a priest thereby there can be no “forcible” clerical celibacy. At least not to the best of my knowledge.

 

[UniversalistGuy]

But aside from you not liking the practice what obstacle to belief do you think is presented by the practice of celibate clergy?

If an inquirer chooses to consider the issue in isolation I guess it wouldn’t be described as an obstacle. Then you might say it’s nothing more than silly. But considered in context I think it brings into focus how much power the pope actually has.

 

[UniversalistGuy]

UniversalistGuy;7491964:

Sorry, I should have said forcible

clerical celibacy. Peter chose to get married, Paul didn’t, and Jesus chose not to say anything about the issue one way or the other.No one is forced to be a priest thereby there can be no “forcible” clerical celibacy. At least not to the best of my knowledge.

You’re playing semantics and even more importantly I think you’re involving me in derailing the thread. We’re miles off topic. Let’s just drop it, huh?

Apologies to the OP.

 

[ignatius777]

If an inquirer chooses to consider the issue in isolation I guess it wouldn’t be described as an obstacle. Then you might say it’s nothing more than silly. But considered in context I think it brings into focus how much power the pope actually has.

The pope has nothing which isnt granted to him by the power of the Holy Spirit. Its clear you dont like the practice of celibacy and you probably dont like the idea of a pope either which I think clouds your ability or willingness to answer the question. The presence of celibate clergy or a pope that has disceerned from the Holy Spirit that celibate clergy are necessary in no way places an obstacle in my believing in the validity and truth of the catholic church. The existeance of married protestant clergy doesnt make me anymore or less likely to believe like a protestant

 

[ignatius777]

You’re playing semantics and even more importantly I think you’re involving me in derailing the thread. We’re miles off topic. Let’s just drop it, huh?

Apologies to the OP.

How is it semantics that men VOLUNTARILY enter the catholic priesthood and by virtue of that fact alone nothing expected of them can be “forible”?

I couldnt agree more with the derailing of the thread but we arent here because of me but I admit I did follow.

 

[UniversalistGuy]

How is it semantics that men VOLUNTARILY enter the catholic priesthood and by virtue of that fact alone nothing expected of them can be “forible”?

I couldnt agree more with the derailing of the thread but we arent here because of me but I admit I did follow.

I’m as much to blame.

What if I started a thread about this issue? I would make the title “Why does the Catholic Church insist upon a celibate priesthood?” and my OP to say “Why doesn’t the pope change this rule?” Will you come on it and discuss it?