Did, "Mary" acknowledge Jesus at Lourdes?

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FrankLawrence

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I’m wondering, do we have any documented proof that “Mary” acknowledged Jesus at Lourdes? I realize that Catholics are NOT required to accept the validity of Our Lady of Lourdes, but we may do so, as the Church approved of it, but never made an ex-cathedra delaration that all true Catholics must believe it. What is my personal opinion? Well, the answer to this question will determine it. Why do I consider this question significant? 1 John 4:1-3. I don’t want to hear that Mary automatically implies her Son. Please provide documented proof that she SPECIFICALLY acknowledged Jesus. Not His teachings, or teachings consistent with Him, but Jesus Christ, come in the flesh.
 
If someone can point out a valid flaw to my logic, I’ll accept that, too. I’m not trying to claim that I have greater knowledge of Scripture than those in the Church who were responsible for approving or disapproving such apparitions were, as such would be about as prideful a statement as one could make, but at the same time, it would seem, unless I am grossly misinterpreting 1 John 4:1-3, that such apparitions should be required to pass that litmus test. Did she? I also would like to add that to me, it seems out of character for the Blessed Mother to be bent upon self-glorification, “I am the Immaculate Conception,” being her first statement rather than, “Listen to everything my Son, Jesus Christ who has come in the flesh told you.” Just my opinion.
 
Frank,

I’m not sure you can use that small snippet of scripture as a litmus test in the way you are doing here (and you yourself acknowledge this possibility, for which I commend you), but for the moment I want to focus only on whether or not Mary did acknowledge Christ at Lourdes.

Limiting this post to that. . . I would say she certainly did so, and she did so precisely by stating “I am the Immaculate Conception.” That wasn’t boastful. It was the truth. And it wasn’t her first statement at Lourdes, it was her last known statement!

The important point is that the Dogma of the Immaculate Conception had been declared four years prior to this event. Mary was answering a priest’s request to Bernadette for the “lady’s name.” Mary gave Bernadette a highly theological and sophisticated answer, one Bernadette didn’t even comprehend. But the priest did, and with it was convinced of the authenticity of the events. By restating the previously proclaimed Dogma, and only after it was proclaimed by the Church, Mary shows her deference to the Church her Son established. It was a emminently Catholic response, and if Catholic, then of Christ.

What do you think?
VC
 
FC-
I am confused as to why you placed “Mary” is quotes.
 
It looks like he may be questioning that the apparition was authentic in spite of the Church’s investigation and approval. 🤷

This is the whole wrong forum for this topic anyway. It belongs in Spirituality.
 
Perhaps FL used Mary in quotes because OP might think this could not be the real Virgin Mary, hence put the name in the quote.

Anyhow, even Satan and Devil could accept Jesus is the Son of God.
Using the verse only won’t prove anything.
 
I also wondered why “Mary” was in inverted commas. To my mind the very figure of Mary, her selfhood and all she stands for/represents speaks of Jesus since her whole self is involved in the Incarnation of the Second Person of The Blessed Trinity: Jesus. Mary is, and is heralded as, the mother of Jesus…else possibly we would never have heard of her. Consulting myself as it were, I never even think of Mary, Our Lady, in isolation from Jesus.

Blessings - Barb:)
 
If someone can point out a valid flaw to my logic, I’ll accept that, too. I’m not trying to claim that I have greater knowledge of Scripture than those in the Church who were responsible for approving or disapproving such apparitions were, as such would be about as prideful a statement as one could make, but at the same time, it would seem, unless I am grossly misinterpreting 1 John 4:1-3, that such apparitions should be required to pass that litmus test. Did she? I also would like to add that to me, it seems out of character for the Blessed Mother to be bent upon self-glorification, “I am the Immaculate Conception,” being her first statement rather than, “Listen to everything my Son, Jesus Christ who has come in the flesh told you.” Just my opinion.
I’m curious. Do you believe and accept the Immaculate Conception? It is a dogma which all Catholics must accept.
 
The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception certainly isn’t based on the Lourdes apparitions in any event - it well and truly preceded them.

If I remember rightly one of the first things Mary did was make the Sign of the Cross - which explicitly names and acknowledges Jesus as God the Son.

Then again Mary at Lourdes prayed the Rosary along with Bernadette - I doubt the devil would like all those Hail Marys which explicitly name and acknowledge Jesus as both God and the fruit of Mary’s womb.

Sounds like either or both of these could fit the bill.
 
If someone can point out a valid flaw to my logic, I’ll accept that, too. I’m not trying to claim that I have greater knowledge of Scripture than those in the Church who were responsible for approving or disapproving such apparitions were, as such would be about as prideful a statement as one could make, but at the same time, it would seem, unless I am grossly misinterpreting 1 John 4:1-3, that such apparitions should be required to pass that litmus test. Did she? I also would like to add that to me, it seems out of character for the Blessed Mother to be bent upon self-glorification, “I am the Immaculate Conception,” being her first statement rather than, “Listen to everything my Son, Jesus Christ who has come in the flesh told you.” Just my opinion.
Frank, as was already mentioned, the statement of her identity was not the first thing she said. While we are not privy to all that passed between St. Bernadette and the Virgin, we do know that one of the Virgin’s first directives was to “pray to God for sinners.” When the Lady did state her identity it was in response to St. Bernadette’s question: “Who are you?” The local pastor had been insistent that she should ask the Lady who she was. The Lady responded with the words that identify the essence of Mary: The Immaculate Conception. She is not glorifying herself but sharing with St. Bernadette - and us - her identity in the One Who glorified her.
 
Yes, I absolutely accept the Immaculate Conception. It was declared ex-cathedra, so to deny it would make one a heretic and prevent full fellowship with the Catholic Church. The reason I placed “Mary” in quotes is NOT that I am questioning the validity of the Immaculate Conception, but the validity of the apparition, which is within my rights to question since it was never declared ex-cathedra. I feel that it is important to keep in mind that John, the beloved disciple, is the very person who Jesus chose to care for His Mother, and the very person who warned us to test all spirits, giving the litmus test found in 1 John 4:1-3. It is not that I am dead set against the apparition having really been Mary, but that, well maybe I’m taking somewhat of a Thomas attitude towards it, that I’m looking for proof that she acknowledged her Son, beyond merely praying Hail Marys. Revelation 19:10 also, in my understanding, shows that John is following his own advice(let’s not derail the thread by claiming that some believe that the John of Revelation and John the Apostle are two separate Johns. That would be a different topic.) I guess my question is, what was the Church’s grounds for approving the apparition? Perhaps that would be a better way to ask the question.
 
Then again Mary at Lourdes prayed the Rosary along with Bernadette - I doubt the devil would like all those Hail Marys which explicitly name and acknowledge Jesus as both God and the fruit of Mary’s womb.
That arguably could qualify. Yes, I absolutely accept the Immaculate Conception. It was declared ex-cathedra, so to deny it would make one a heretic and prevent full fellowship with the Catholic Church. The reason I placed “Mary” in quotes is NOT that I am questioning the validity of the Immaculate Conception, but the validity of the apparition, which is within my rights to question since it was never declared ex-cathedra. However, not to be like Thomas, but did “Mary” pray the Hail Mary, or just instruct Bernadette to do such? It would seem odd for Mary to pray to herself. Actually, it would also seem odd for Mary to appear before Bernadette and say, “pray to me.” On what grounds did the Church approve the apparition? Please tell me it has more significance than merely confirming a Church doctrine(The Immaculate Conception.) If they needed an apparition from Mary to confirm that, then it would attack the entire Papal Infallibility doctrine and the Rock by which Jesus built His Church. All Protestant denominations, “Christian” cults, and Islam agree with the Catholic Church on certain issues, so there must have been more than that to merit an official Church approval of the apparition. Implicit acknowledgements of Christ, based on bringing our understanding into someone’s words, are not the same as blatant outright acknowledgements of Christ. I am not trying to be antagonistic, but am really looking for some solid (NOT implicit) evidence in accordance with 1 John 4:1-3, or perhaps an alternate interpretation of such verses.
 
That arguably could qualify. Yes, I absolutely accept the Immaculate Conception. It was declared ex-cathedra, so to deny it would make one a heretic and prevent full fellowship with the Catholic Church. The reason I placed “Mary” in quotes is NOT that I am questioning the validity of the Immaculate Conception, but the validity of the apparition, which is within my rights to question since it was never declared ex-cathedra.
While one is not required to accept a particular approved apparition, a Catholic must acknowledge that the Church alone has the authority to give this approval, having studied thoroughly all that transpired. In the case of Lourdes, its accord with Catholic doctrine, the miracles associated with it, and the life of St. Bernadette herself were all examined to see whether public devotion - particularly liturgical devotion - could be rendered to Our Lady under the title “of Lourdes.”
I feel that it is important to keep in mind that John, the beloved disciple, is the very person who Jesus chose to care for His Mother, and the very person who warned us to test all spirits, giving the litmus test found in 1 John 4:1-3. I use those verses to condemn the “Gabriel” that allegedly appeared to Mohammed, and I feel that I need to be fair and consistent across the board.
Only the magisterial authority of the Church has the knowledge and authority to “test all spirits” in regard to its approval or disapproval of apparitions. One cannot gainsay the Church’s ability to do so, by putting forth one’s own personal understanding of how that “litmus test” is to be applied.
Why would Mary pray the Hail Mary? That would be like God The Father praying the Our Father. It is not that I am dead set against the apparition having really been Mary, but that, well maybe I’m taking somewhat of a Thomas attitude towards it, that I’m looking for proof that she acknowledged her Son, beyond merely praying Hail Marys.
Ah, but she didn’t pray the “Hail Mary” with Bernadette. She listened as Bernadette prayed. If memory serves, it was only at the “Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit” that the Lady joined in and grew more radiant.
Revelation 19:10 also, in my understanding, shows that John is following his own advice(let’s not derail the thread by claiming that some believe that the John of Revelation and John the Apostle are two separate Johns. That would be a different topic.) I guess my question is, what was the Church’s grounds for approving the apparition? Perhaps that would be a better way to ask the question.
You might find these sites helpful:

theotokos.org.uk/pages/appdisce/church.html

catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?recnum=2866

chnetwork.org/journals/mary/mary_8.htm
 
." it was only at the “Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit” that the Lady joined in and grew more radiant."

Yes , good point .

And it also reminds us why it would be good of us , to say the Hail Mary , in asking her to pray with us and for us - since many, (atleast) among those we pray for, have fallen away mortally , from Divine Will and His Way , thus having invited someone below to be the father…

Having The Mother there right with us , does it not ensure that the prayers are to The True God and Father…

May be the reason for Bl.Mother’s special request , for Consecration… and its powerful effects …

Her appaearance at Lourdes - ? also to support the Papal infallibilty issue, only to make it easier to have trust in the teachings and guidance of The Church , in these times of ours …which could have made it possible to have The Consecration , by All the Bishops …to show us that the time of thorns can be overcome , to the spring time of Roses …of prevention of evil…

Yet, we know , it is to be , one day …

Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us!

O Mary , concieved without sin, pray for us !
 
While one is not required to accept a particular approved apparition, a Catholic must acknowledge that the Church alone has the authority to give this approval, having studied thoroughly all that transpired. In the case of Lourdes, its accord with Catholic doctrine, the miracles associated with it, and the life of St. Bernadette herself were all examined to see whether public devotion - particularly liturgical devotion - could be rendered to Our Lady under the title “of Lourdes.”
Only the magisterial authority of the Church has the knowledge and authority to “test all spirits” in regard to its approval or disapproval of apparitions. One cannot gainsay the Church’s ability to do so, by putting forth one’s own personal understanding of how that “litmus test” is to be applied.
Ah, but she didn’t pray the “Hail Mary” with Bernadette. She listened as Bernadette prayed. If memory serves, it was only at the “Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit” that the Lady joined in and grew more radiant.
I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said, although, through NO fault of your own, you quoted my post before I edited it. I guess, while I have no trouble whatsoever in accepting the Church’s authority to pass down divinely revealed truth that has its origins with Jesus and the Apostles, and to speak infallibly when talking ex-cathedra in matters of faith and morals, is it possible, according to CATHOLIC teaching, that the Church may be wrong on accepting Our Lady of Lourdes as a valid apparition? I mean, after all, do I need to mention the name Galileo(sic?) While we are to trust in the Lord and lean not on our own understanding(Proverbs 3:5) is there any Catholic teaching that infallibly guarantees the Church’s accuracy in validating post-apostolic apparitions? The Hail Mary says, “The Lord is with you.” It says, “Blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus.” It says, “Mother of God.” This “Marian” apparition, however, according to what you are saying, PERSONALLY made no such statements, which brings us back to square 1 on the 1 John 4:1-3 litmus test. I know that if any spirit was to personally appear before me, I would hold such a spirit to that test. Also, how is the life of Bernadette relevant to whether that apparition was real or not? Jesus was real, but the life of Judas Iscariot is not what proives it.
 
Hmm, after further thought, maybe I am just guilty of the sin of pride on this issue. Nevermind.
 
Jesus’ human essence/flesh/carnality comes forth from Mary. He is Son of the Father and Holy Spirit.

Jesus is God AND man…his humanity is from His mother. We all know Mary is Jesus’ mother. During Our lady’s life after the crucifixion she received her Son in the Eucharist.

Jeus desires that His mother be honored, thus we have Lourdes and other shrines.
 
Hmm, after further thought, maybe I am just guilty of the sin of pride on this issue. Nevermind.
This was a very brave thing to say, Frank. 👍 I would, though, like to address the concerns you mentioned, just to help lay them further to rest.
I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said, although, through NO fault of your own, you quoted my post before I edited it. I guess, while I have no trouble whatsoever in accepting the Church’s authority to pass down divinely revealed truth that has its origins with Jesus and the Apostles, and to speak infallibly when talking ex-cathedra in matters of faith and morals, is it possible, according to CATHOLIC teaching, that the Church may be wrong on accepting Our Lady of Lourdes as a valid apparition? I mean, after all, do I need to mention the name Galileo(sic?)
This is not the same thing, though, Frank. Galileo’s case was a scientific issue. He was condemned because he said that, scientifically speaking, the cosmology of the Bible is wrong, and this placed him in conflict with the 17th Century Catholic Church, which was, at the time, dealing with the Protestant revolt and on guard against major outbreaks of heresy. The fact that Galileo’s scientific opinion was correct has no bearing on the Church or its authority, for, we do not believe that the Church can speak infallibly in terms of science, but only in terms of theological truth. Theologically, Galileo was not correct, and the Church was.

As for a private revelation like Lourdes, etc., the Church can rule with certainty about such things because of its theological authority; and, please recall that all the Church says about Lourdes and other approved private revelations is that they are “worthy of belief.” What this means is that the Church has investigated the claims of this supposed private revelation and has checked them up against that which has been “pass down as Divinely revealed from Jesus and the Apostles,” and has ruled that there is nothing in this private revelation that contradicts or is not in accord with the content of the Apostolic Deposit. Thus, when the Catholic Church approves of something like Lourdes, it is acting within the limits of its Christ-given authority and making a judgment about the nature of the Apostolic Deposit, and that which conforms to the Apostolic Deposit. This is within the Church’s full authority to do because the Catholic Church is the custodian and final arbiter of what does and does not conform to Apostolic teaching.

The Church has formally declared that Lourdes conforms to Apostolic teaching, and it is thus declared to be “worthy of belief.” While a Catholic is not required to believe in Lourdes (or any private revelation), the Church, using its Christ-given authority to discern sound Apostolic doctrine, has declared that there is no obstacle in place if a Catholic wishes to believe in it; nor is a Catholic who chooses to reject Lourdes able to fault his brother Catholic for believing in it. Indeed, you are perfectly free to reject Lourdes if you wish to; but just don’t seek to deny the freedom of others to believe in it, for that would be denying that the Catholic Church has the authority to decide what does and does not conform to the Apostolic Deposit. Either the Catholic Church is the final custodian and arbiter of the Apostolic Deposit or it is not. If it is, then we have no right to question its decision to declare Lourdes to be in substantial accord with the Apostolic Deposit.
While we are to trust in the Lord and lean not on our own understanding(Proverbs 3:5) is there any Catholic teaching that infallibly guarantees the Church’s accuracy in validating post-apostolic apparitions?
Yes. See Matt. 16:19, John 14:16-17 & 16:13, and 1 Thess. 5:21.
The Hail Mary says, “The Lord is with you.” It says, “Blessed is the fruit of thy womb Jesus.” It says, “Mother of God.” This “Marian” apparition, however, according to what you are saying, PERSONALLY made no such statements, which brings us back to square 1 on the 1 John 4:1-3 litmus test.
Notice that the Greek verb “test” (both in 1 John 4:1 and 1 Thess. 5:21) is in the “you-PLURAL.” This is because the Apostles are referring, not to the personal discernment of an individual, but to the collective authority of the Church itself. The Catholic Church has “tested” Lourdes, and has judged that it should be approved. It has also tested countless other supposed apparitions of the Virgin, and judged that these should not be approved. Thus, 1 John 4:1-3 and the Catholic Church are in perfect accord. As for the Virgin’s statement at Lourdes (“I am the Immaculate Conception”), as had already been posted here this statement was made a couple years after the Immaculate Conception of Mary was formally proclaimed to be a dogma of the Catholic Church.

continued. . .
 
In other words, it was recognized that the Immaculate Conception of Mary is substantially part of the Apostolic Deposit of Faith (the full and comprehensive meaning of Mary as the “New Eve”), and thus when Our Lady of Lourdes says “I am the Immaculate Conception,” she is speaking out of the recognized and infallible Apostolic Deposit of Faith to which “the Lord is with you” and “Blessed is the Fruit of your womb” and “Mother of God” also belong. This alone makes the statement at Lourdes sound and beyond substantial criticism for any believing Catholic. Mary speaks in accord with the dogmatic authority of the Church, which had so recently been exercised in this particular area.
I know that if any spirit was to personally appear before me, I would hold such a spirit to that test.
Again, 1 John 4:1-3 uses the “you-PLURAL” in Greek. It is referring to what the Church should do collectively. Also, as verses 2 to 6 illustrate (which the historical context of the Epistle helps us see), St. John is referring to the heresy of the Docetists, who denied that Jesus truly had a human body. There is no such denial at Lourdes. On the contrary, the presence of Christ’s very human mother re-affirms the Apostolic truth of the Incarnation, as does the Immaculate Conception itself, which is at the total service of the Incarnation.
Also, how is the life of Bernadette relevant to whether that apparition was real or not? Jesus was real, but the life of Judas Iscariot is not what proives it.
That is faulty logic, though, Frank. The holy life of Bernadette helps to testify to the trustworthiness of her claims. A holy person doesn’t lie and make up stories without ever confessing the truth. Jesus said it: “A tree is known by its fruit.” Her life during and following the apparitions is just one part of the whole picture of the events which the Church investigated.

Hope that helps, Frank. 🙂
 
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