M
maryj
Guest
Then YOU have heard wrong.This gets so tiring:yawn:
- Status
M
Marilena
Guest
why is it that when one posts links for the OP they don’t bother checking them out and responding to them? joseph, if you want a fair dicsussion, then please read the links i provided for you, and then come back and comment on what you’ve read.
how do you expect a fair debate if you don’t have the facts as to what we believe?
how do you expect a fair debate if you don’t have the facts as to what we believe?
J
johnnycatholic
Guest
First of all, holy water doesn’t cost 17 cents. It’s free. Secondly, Christ Himself was baptized by His cousin. We are to imitate Christ, hence baptism by water. Thirdly, i think the sacrament of confirmation is like the baptism of spirit you speak of (Catholics, please correct me if i’m wrong. i’m a bit new). Christ does indeed speak of being baptized in the spirit, but also by water. You cannot pick and choose passages of the Bible to fight us with, you must be consist in your argumentation. Otherwise it is you who have no leg to stand on. Also, if you are a mormon, you are not a Christian because your understanding of the Trinity (invented by Joseph Smith in the 1800’s) is not the Christian one. Also you deny Christ’s word that the gates of hell shall not prevail against His church by your myth of a great apostasy which has no Biblical or historical proof.
Christ didn’t give us the Bible, He gave us a Church. We follow Church teaching based on proper scriptural interpretation and Tradition. Until you can explain to me why Christ didn’t have scribes write down His word but instead had mere men set up Churches (and this has to be proven sola scriptura) and how this jives with a sola scriptura teaching, then you have no leg to stand on.
B
Br.Rich_SFO
Guest
Also do not assume that all who call themselves Christian are Christian. Many call themselves Christian who have never received Baptism. No one is exempt from the requirement of Baptism, no not even St. Paul himself. (Acts 9:18) As Christ said to Peter “If I do not wash you, you will have no part with Me” and then later Peter in turn answering the crowds question; What shall we do to be saved? “Repent and be Baptized each one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of your sins.” Acts 2:38 Peter understood Christ when He said he who believes AND is Baptized will be saved and when He said Unless a man be born of Water and the Spirit he cannot enter the Kingdom.
W
WanderAimlessly
Guest
What I see here is a thinly veiled attack that we “worship” Mary. By equating the words “assended” and “assumed”, the OP coveniently does not allow us to correct his view.
Catholics have never said that Mary “assended” into heaven like Chist did. She was “assumed” into heaven by God just like Elijah was. There is a big difference.
Catholics have never said that Mary “assended” into heaven like Chist did. She was “assumed” into heaven by God just like Elijah was. There is a big difference.
J
Joseph_Smith
Guest
Well you still have not provide me one scripture to supports that Mary was indeed caught up to heaven. There is not reports from the apostles ever seeing it or it ever taking place.
no reference to it in the new testiment. And the reference someone gave in revelation is not speaking about Mary it is speaking about Israel and the baby Jesus. As proven by the 12stars over the head of the woman. 12 tribes, This is the Father God bride Israel holding his Son Jesus. So you can’t prove me any scripture on it i guess.
You know the word of God is good for the casting down of imaginations. That means if you can’t prove it in scriptures it is indeed imagination.
no reference to it in the new testiment. And the reference someone gave in revelation is not speaking about Mary it is speaking about Israel and the baby Jesus. As proven by the 12stars over the head of the woman. 12 tribes, This is the Father God bride Israel holding his Son Jesus. So you can’t prove me any scripture on it i guess.
You know the word of God is good for the casting down of imaginations. That means if you can’t prove it in scriptures it is indeed imagination.
I see. So the child is indeed Jesus, but the Woman who bears him isn’t his Mother? It MUST be Israel?
Catholic interpretation does indeed see Israel and the Church in the Woman. Yet it must be a hard heart that refuses to see that the Messiah had a mother. It must be a hard heart that insists on looking beyond the obvious and see that the Mother of the Messiah is Mary his mother. But nooo, you approach with the pre-conceived notion that “Mary didn’t assend (sic)” so the woman CAN’t be Mary."
Our logic is simple. The child is the Messiah. The Woman is his mother. That’s all. There is none so blind as the one who wouldn’t see.
And by the way, those who don’t like the Woman are in bad company. The rest of the chapter tells the story.
J
Jeanette_L
Guest
Z
Zooey
Guest
I have been reading the Bible for 55 years, laddy. Not once is it mentioned that anyone named Joseph Smith exists, has existed, or will exist. By your “reasoning”, yean, you yourself are nonexistent.
Dinnae be ye daft, yean. Ye can say what ye like, but the lady in Revelation is the Virgin Mother all the same!!
W
water
Guest
R
Rye-Guy
Guest
Here’s a way to make it clear:
Ascend: to ascend would be to take oneself up by one’s own power.
Assume: to be taken up by some outside force.
In this Jesus ascended (he took himself up to heaven) and Mary was assumed into heaven (she was taken up by Christ).
So the answer to your original question Joseph Smith would be NO…Mary did not ascend, but she was assumed.
Ascend: to ascend would be to take oneself up by one’s own power.
Assume: to be taken up by some outside force.
In this Jesus ascended (he took himself up to heaven) and Mary was assumed into heaven (she was taken up by Christ).
So the answer to your original question Joseph Smith would be NO…Mary did not ascend, but she was assumed.
6
6glargento
Guest
where does the bible say this?
where does the bible say that all christian beliefs must be found in the bible?
where does the bible say that the word of God is limited to what is written in the bible?
how do you know which books belong in the bible since the bible never tells us?
these questions you first need to answer yourself first
R
rpp
Guest
To take the Bible and claim that everything must be there is a foolishness that can only exist 1700 years after the Bible was assembled. (By the Catholic Church, no less.) What is more, if you are a non-Catholic, you will most likely use the abridged version.
Contrary another post, the early Church fathers did indeed know about and write about the Assumption of Mary, as confirmed by subsequent link by faithful and well informed Catholic Christians. Admittedly, the information was spotty, which is why it took so long for the Church to delare it officially.
Finally, Joseph Smith, your tone is a bit disturbing. You write as if you would not even consider reasonable responses. That is not Christian charity or behavior. While you have free-wil and can disagree with Catholic teachings, it is unlikely you will convince anyone by beating us over the head, as it were. I do not believe Jesus tried to “score points” against the pharesees. In fact, I recall at one point he said “do what they say, but not what they do.”
Reasonable questions, asked earnestly and without accusation, are more likely to get good answers. If you do not intend to ask earnest questions, but rather score points, please pause and consider how the Lord will look upon your actions. Please consider this the next time you post.
Peace be with you.
W
WanderAimlessly
Guest
Twisting words is always a tactic that we have to be on guard for. This one was glaring becaused the OP used “assend” in his title and “assumed” in the post. The cut was obvious.That’s right! The word is ‘assumed’.
ps: how did you get up to 22K posts
As for the 22K. I take it you have not been down to the Water Cooler. Actually, if we did not crash, I would be close to 35K by now
T
Tomster
Guest
Joseph Smith,
One of the glories of the Blessed Virgin is that she reigns in heaven Queen of angels and of men. Her sovereignty is founded on her Divine Maternity and her unique part in our redemption.
On account of her utterly singular position, her matchless dignity, and the part she played in the salvation of men, Mary is accorded religious honor. That worship, however, is essentially less than the adoration paid to God but of a higher type than the honor given to any angel or holy man. Some heretics accuse the Church of giving Mary divine honor and refuse to credit her when she says that she carefully distinguishes between the worship due to God and the honor paid to Mary. Be it so. But it is a sure sign of orthodoxy to know by instinct the right thing to say of Mary, just as it is characteristic of heresy to fear Mary and be unwilling to render her what God expects she should have.
Tomster
One of the glories of the Blessed Virgin is that she reigns in heaven Queen of angels and of men. Her sovereignty is founded on her Divine Maternity and her unique part in our redemption.
On account of her utterly singular position, her matchless dignity, and the part she played in the salvation of men, Mary is accorded religious honor. That worship, however, is essentially less than the adoration paid to God but of a higher type than the honor given to any angel or holy man. Some heretics accuse the Church of giving Mary divine honor and refuse to credit her when she says that she carefully distinguishes between the worship due to God and the honor paid to Mary. Be it so. But it is a sure sign of orthodoxy to know by instinct the right thing to say of Mary, just as it is characteristic of heresy to fear Mary and be unwilling to render her what God expects she should have.
Tomster
E
exiled
Guest
It is recorded in Scripture that all that Christ said and did could not be contained in books. Are you free to ignore Christ’s instructions that were passed down orally?
Do you think that Christ would have obeyed the 4th commandment perfectly? Surely the honor He could have/would have given to His mother would be far greater than the honor mere men could give to our own. This is a reflection on His perfection as a son, and to reject His perfect Sonship is to reject His Perfections. No other way around it.
J
Joseph_Smith
Guest
You should not be disturbed at all i am a prophet i always upset people.
Did Jesus come back to take Mary up to heaevn. And can he come back and take up Mary before he comes back for the whole body of christ.
Jesus is in heaven setting beside the Father, He has been there for 2000 year. Until the foolness of the gentiles is complete he will not and can’t return to earth.
The problem for the catholic church is the fact they teach Mary went to heaven and not hell. Jesus went to hell for us making him a single redeemer paying all the price for sin and him sinnless. Mary paid no price for sin other then the personnel price of her own sin. Jesus paid the price from the world sins and not a single one his. The fullness of God dwelt in Christ alone. He alone is God he alone is our redeemer and he alone is our salvaton and our hope. He is the Christ the messiah of GOD the Son of the living God. Christ is the one answer for sin. The whole bible points to God and his plan from Christ to raise him up and to exalt him this is the Fathers will.
Mary is not Christ she is 100 percent human and she is not God child as Jesus is. She is a daughter of aberham. Not a daugher of God. Mary is never once exalted in scripture. Mary is not put on a high thrown or a pedestal in scripture. Mary is indeed highly favored.
In the teaching ot the divine nature of Mary the catholic church has itself show itself less then in right standing with scripture. This is human worship over Christ worship and it is actually as old as the word. For which many have been judged by God.
The many reasons that Mary can’t be assumed are vast. So vast that one lifetime could be wasted in going thur it all. The fullness of God abides in Christ. Not Mary. And that really gets to the point of the issue. If the fullness of God abided in Christ then Mary is not really important in the big picture. As Christ it shown in revelation and not Mary we have yeat another problem if Mary role was that of such great importance why do we not hear of her anymore in the scripture after she died. Becasue her role is minor compared to Christ.
In revelation we see the 24 elders the apostles and the angles and even the Lamb and father God all clearly shown but not Mary. Not many claim Mary is the women with the baby and the 12 stars. But that is proved to be Israel per the scriptures.
So there is a lack of real substance to any claim of Mary and divinity. Assumption is only wishful thinking. A sinnless Mary is pure nonsince the scripture is clear on that point. A virgin hardly. Scripture had addressed this all. So why do you hang onto Imagaination. Only because you Worship Mary the creation over Christ the creator. You may want to consider putting on the mind of Christ. This book with its red words cost his blood. He is your only redemer.
Three people have assended into heaven. Jesus, Enoch and Prophet Elijah. The two prophet that will return are enoch and elijah. Why it is appointed to men to die once. Jesus when he returns shortly after the prophet is coming to Judge and rule. but as you do not see Mary returning yeat claim her sinnless
you have a huge problem because she is not used of God anymore in the bible. Not risen to a special role in the kingdom and no scripture supports your logic or your desire to see her exalted. John the baptist mother is not found in heaven spoke of nor the mother of mosus. There is a reason you are not seeing woman lifted up by God, God created man in his image and not woman. Woman came out of man and then woman was cursed with a curse after the fall. That curse is that she will be rule over her husband. In the case of Mary christ is in fact her husbandman. As all members in the body of Christ are betroved to Christ. This is a spiritual husbandman.
Mary on earth is Joseph. But mary was born into a new kingdom that of Christ and now is also betroved to Christ as we of the body are. Is this adultry no. This is God bring forth what is writen in his word. Behold i do a new thing.
If this was a form of adulty then all would die in sin. This is a condition of Grace unto salvaiton. In grace we are not subject to the law of God nor can be. Our seed abide in us and we i Christ who has become the fullness of God. Mary who carried the seed of Christ in her has now been given the seed of Christ ( his spirit ) like all born again christians. Thus Mary is not exalted she is a fellow worker in Christ and a servent unto Christ as we all are. What mary could not do Christ has done. Mary could not pay for the sins of the whole earth. And Mary could not remain sinless. Nor could Mary every go to heaven with out salvation. Salvation is a eternal reward as much as a gift. Of all the people on earth do you not think Jesus would have wanted his wonderful mother in heaven with him even if she was human. Sure he did. And he is the only way to heaven. Mary had to be a repentant sinner to make it to heaven and remain there.
Did Jesus come back to take Mary up to heaevn. And can he come back and take up Mary before he comes back for the whole body of christ.
Jesus is in heaven setting beside the Father, He has been there for 2000 year. Until the foolness of the gentiles is complete he will not and can’t return to earth.
The problem for the catholic church is the fact they teach Mary went to heaven and not hell. Jesus went to hell for us making him a single redeemer paying all the price for sin and him sinnless. Mary paid no price for sin other then the personnel price of her own sin. Jesus paid the price from the world sins and not a single one his. The fullness of God dwelt in Christ alone. He alone is God he alone is our redeemer and he alone is our salvaton and our hope. He is the Christ the messiah of GOD the Son of the living God. Christ is the one answer for sin. The whole bible points to God and his plan from Christ to raise him up and to exalt him this is the Fathers will.
Mary is not Christ she is 100 percent human and she is not God child as Jesus is. She is a daughter of aberham. Not a daugher of God. Mary is never once exalted in scripture. Mary is not put on a high thrown or a pedestal in scripture. Mary is indeed highly favored.
In the teaching ot the divine nature of Mary the catholic church has itself show itself less then in right standing with scripture. This is human worship over Christ worship and it is actually as old as the word. For which many have been judged by God.
The many reasons that Mary can’t be assumed are vast. So vast that one lifetime could be wasted in going thur it all. The fullness of God abides in Christ. Not Mary. And that really gets to the point of the issue. If the fullness of God abided in Christ then Mary is not really important in the big picture. As Christ it shown in revelation and not Mary we have yeat another problem if Mary role was that of such great importance why do we not hear of her anymore in the scripture after she died. Becasue her role is minor compared to Christ.
In revelation we see the 24 elders the apostles and the angles and even the Lamb and father God all clearly shown but not Mary. Not many claim Mary is the women with the baby and the 12 stars. But that is proved to be Israel per the scriptures.
So there is a lack of real substance to any claim of Mary and divinity. Assumption is only wishful thinking. A sinnless Mary is pure nonsince the scripture is clear on that point. A virgin hardly. Scripture had addressed this all. So why do you hang onto Imagaination. Only because you Worship Mary the creation over Christ the creator. You may want to consider putting on the mind of Christ. This book with its red words cost his blood. He is your only redemer.
Three people have assended into heaven. Jesus, Enoch and Prophet Elijah. The two prophet that will return are enoch and elijah. Why it is appointed to men to die once. Jesus when he returns shortly after the prophet is coming to Judge and rule. but as you do not see Mary returning yeat claim her sinnless
you have a huge problem because she is not used of God anymore in the bible. Not risen to a special role in the kingdom and no scripture supports your logic or your desire to see her exalted. John the baptist mother is not found in heaven spoke of nor the mother of mosus. There is a reason you are not seeing woman lifted up by God, God created man in his image and not woman. Woman came out of man and then woman was cursed with a curse after the fall. That curse is that she will be rule over her husband. In the case of Mary christ is in fact her husbandman. As all members in the body of Christ are betroved to Christ. This is a spiritual husbandman.
Mary on earth is Joseph. But mary was born into a new kingdom that of Christ and now is also betroved to Christ as we of the body are. Is this adultry no. This is God bring forth what is writen in his word. Behold i do a new thing.
If this was a form of adulty then all would die in sin. This is a condition of Grace unto salvaiton. In grace we are not subject to the law of God nor can be. Our seed abide in us and we i Christ who has become the fullness of God. Mary who carried the seed of Christ in her has now been given the seed of Christ ( his spirit ) like all born again christians. Thus Mary is not exalted she is a fellow worker in Christ and a servent unto Christ as we all are. What mary could not do Christ has done. Mary could not pay for the sins of the whole earth. And Mary could not remain sinless. Nor could Mary every go to heaven with out salvation. Salvation is a eternal reward as much as a gift. Of all the people on earth do you not think Jesus would have wanted his wonderful mother in heaven with him even if she was human. Sure he did. And he is the only way to heaven. Mary had to be a repentant sinner to make it to heaven and remain there.
O
Orogeny
Guest
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Please cite your source.
E
exiled
Guest
Wow! I never thought of it this way. I am thrilled that I can finally see the errors of my ways, and the errors of the Church. If only God had been wise enough to see that the woman He chose to bear His Son would lead so many astray! What a pity. I am certain that God is pleased that Joseph Smith is here to re-establish the church.:bowdown2:
- Status