Did Mary Choose to be Assumed into Heaven?

[diarmait]

My question began with whether Adam and Eve had faith. I figured that if they walked and talked with God, they may have had the beatific vision. However, St. Thomas argues that if they had the beatific vision, they would not/could not have turned away from God in sin. So they had faith, as well as hope in final happiness.

So I wondered how Adam and Eve were to attain final happiness if death was not part of their experience. St. Thomas did mention something about Adam and Eve eventually having a spiritualized body which would allow them to experience final happiness in body and soul (had the original sin not occurred).

I was stuck here until I remembered that Mary was conceived w/o the stain of original sin, and that she attained final happiness when she was assumed body and soul into heaven.

My question now is whether Mary determined that she was ready for her body to be “spiritualized” and to be assumed into heaven. Did she reach a certain level of holiness or spirituality which would allow her to be assumed? What was the catalyst for the Assumption? Similarly, what would have been the catalyst for Adam and Eve to quit this world, become spiritualized in body, and attain final happiness?

Any help would be appreciated.

 

[thistle]

My question began with whether Adam and Eve had faith. I figured that if they walked and talked with God, they may have had the beatific vision. However, St. Thomas argues that if they had the beatific vision, they would not/could not have turned away from God in sin. So they had faith, as well as hope in final happiness.

So I wondered how Adam and Eve were to attain final happiness if death was not part of their experience. St. Thomas did mention something about Adam and Eve eventually having a spiritualized body which would allow them to experience final happiness in body and soul (had the original sin not occurred).

I was stuck here until I remembered that Mary was conceived w/o the stain of original sin, and that she attained final happiness when she was assumed body and soul into heaven.

My question now is whether Mary determined that she was ready for her body to be “spiritualized” and to be assumed into heaven. Did she reach a certain level of holiness or spirituality which would allow her to be assumed? What was the catalyst for the Assumption? Similarly, what would have been the catalyst for Adam and Eve to quit this world, become spiritualized in body, and attain final happiness?

Any help would be appreciated.

Why would you think she chose to be assumed?
She died, was entombed and then was assumed before her body was corrupted.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

My question began with whether Adam and Eve had faith. I figured that if they walked and talked with God, they may have had the beatific vision. However, St. Thomas argues that if they had the beatific vision, they would not/could not have turned away from God in sin. So they had faith, as well as hope in final happiness.

So I wondered how Adam and Eve were to attain final happiness if death was not part of their experience. St. Thomas did mention something about Adam and Eve eventually having a spiritualized body which would allow them to experience final happiness in body and soul (had the original sin not occurred).

I was stuck here until I remembered that Mary was conceived w/o the stain of original sin, and that she attained final happiness when she was assumed body and soul into heaven.

My question now is whether Mary determined that she was ready for her body to be “spiritualized” and to be assumed into heaven. Did she reach a certain level of holiness or spirituality which would allow her to be assumed? What was the catalyst for the Assumption? Similarly, what would have been the catalyst for Adam and Eve to quit this world, become spiritualized in body, and attain final happiness?

Any help would be appreciated.

Mary was Assumed into Heaven by her son, Jesus Christ. Where we go after our deaths is God’s decision, based on our wishes so to speak. She was able to choose if she wanted to experience natural death.

 

[charlye]

My question now is whether Mary determined that she was ready for her body to be “spiritualized” and to be assumed into heaven. Did she reach a certain level of holiness or spirituality which would allow her to be assumed? What was the catalyst for the Assumption? Similarly, what would have been the catalyst for Adam and Eve to quit this world, become spiritualized in body, and attain final happiness?

Any help would be appreciated.

You question is moot unless you can point to Scriptural documentation of her assumption.

Charlye

 

[DLC]

What Biblical support is there for Mary’s Assumption?

 

[Lazerlike42]

What Biblical support is there for Mary’s Assumption?

Much that is too detailed to go into in this thread, as it is off topic. Here is some

Gen. 5:24, Heb. 11:5 - Enoch was bodily assumed into heaven without dying. Would God do any less for Mary the Ark of the New Covenant?

2 Kings 2:11-12; 1 Mac 2:58 - Elijah was assumed into heaven in fiery chariot. Jesus would not do any less for His Blessed Mother.

Psalm 132:8 - Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, thou and the Ark (Mary) of thy might. Both Jesus and Mary were taken up to their eternal resting place in heaven.

2 Cor. 12:2 - Paul speaks of a man in Christ who was caught up to the third heaven. Mary was also brought up into heaven by God.

Matt. 27:52-53 - when Jesus died and rose, the bodies of the saints were raised. Nothing in Scripture precludes Mary’s assumption into heaven.

1 Thess. 4:17 - we shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Rev. 12:1 - we see Mary, the “woman,” clothed with the sun. While in Rev. 6:9 we only see the souls of the martyrs in heaven, in Rev. 12:1 we see Mary, both body and soul.

-http://www.scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#the_bvm-VII

If you want to understand this Ark of the New Covenant stuff, please read catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0510fea5.asp.

You may also want to read www.soladeiverbum.com/maryjohn2.shtml. It is a rather short article which I think you’ll find interesting.

God bless

 

[1ke]

You question is moot unless you can point to Scriptural documentation of her assumption.

Charlye

This is irrelevant, as Catholics do not subscribe to Sola Scriptura. This thread is not a debate about whether Mary was assumed. If you want to discuss that topic, start another thread.

 

[1ke]

My question now is whether Mary determined that she was ready for her body to be “spiritualized” and to be assumed into heaven. Did she reach a certain level of holiness or spirituality which would allow her to be assumed? What was the catalyst for the Assumption? Similarly, what would have been the catalyst for Adam and Eve to quit this world, become spiritualized in body, and attain final happiness?

Any help would be appreciated.

All persons are destined for a glorified body. Mary did not “choose” this. Mary did not “choose” to be assumed. It was her privilege to be assumed immediately (rather than at the second coming) by virtue of her sinlessness.

The Church does not define whether or not she died, merely that “at the end of her earthly life” she was assumed. The catalyst was that she was at the end of her earthly life-- old age, death, we don’t know for sure.

The rest of us will be reunited with our bodies at the Second Coming.

We do not know what the catalyst for Adam and Eve to receive the Beatific Vision would have been-- that would have been up to God.

 

[Randy_Carson]

You question is moot unless you can point to Scriptural documentation of her assumption.

Charlye

Your point is moot unless you can point to Scriptural documentation that all knowledge is contained in the Bible.

 

[diarmait]

Thanks for your answers everyone (especially Randy Carson )

Brother Rich - Your answer was sort of what I thought must be the case. Is that what Adam and Eve would have chosen too, i.e., death or dormition? Do you know of any fathers or doctors of the Church who might have discussed this?

1ke - A friend of mine answered like you did “We do not know what the catalyst for Adam and Eve to receive the Beatific Vision would have been-- that would have been up to God.” That’s why I started thinking about the other sinless person who attained final happiness.

I suppose my question, based on the above, is whether Mary chose to die/sleep, or whether that was simply imposed upon her.

Jeremy

 

[charlye]

What Biblical support is there for Mary’s Assumption?

There is none! It comes solely from the RCCs sacred tradition which, I might add, is not the inspired word of God.

Charlye

 

[Mannyfit75]

There is none! It comes solely from the RCCs sacred tradition which, I might add, is not the inspired word of God.

Charlye

Gen. 5:24, Heb. 11:5 - Enoch was bodily assumed into heaven without dying. Would God do any less for Mary the Ark of the New Covenant?

2 Kings 2:11-12; 1 Mac 2:58 - Elijah was assumed into heaven in fiery chariot. Jesus would not do any less for His Blessed Mother.

Psalm 132:8 - Arise, O Lord, and go to thy resting place, thou and the Ark (Mary) of thy might. Both Jesus and Mary were taken up to their eternal resting place in heaven.

2 Cor. 12:2 - Paul speaks of a man in Christ who was caught up to the third heaven. Mary was also brought up into heaven by God.

Matt. 27:52-53 - when Jesus died and rose, the bodies of the saints were raised. Nothing in Scripture precludes Mary’s assumption into heaven.

1 Thess. 4:17 - we shall be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Rev. 12:1 - we see Mary, the “woman,” clothed with the sun. While in Rev. 6:9 we only see the souls of the martyrs in heaven, in Rev. 12:1 we see Mary, both body and soul.

2 Thess. 2:15 - Paul instructs us to hold fast to oral (not just written) tradition. Apostolic tradition says Mary was assumed into heaven. While claiming the bones of the saints was a common practice during these times (and would have been especially important to obtain Mary’s bones as she was the Mother of God), Mary’s bones were never claimed. This is because they were not available. Mary was taken up body and soul into heaven.

((continue))

 

[Mannyfit75]

“If the Holy Virgin had died and was buried, her falling asleep would have been surrounded with honour, death would have found her pure, and her crown would have been a virginal one…Had she been martyred according to what is written: ‘Thine own soul a sword shall pierce’, then she would shine gloriously among the martyrs, and her holy body would have been declared blessed; for by her, did light come to the world."
Epiphanius, Panarion, 78:23 (A.D. 377).

“[T]he Apostles took up her body on a bier and placed it in a tomb; and they guarded it, expecting the Lord to come. And behold, again the Lord stood by them; and the holy body having been received, He commanded that it be taken in a cloud into paradise: where now, rejoined to the soul, [Mary] rejoices with the Lord’s chosen ones…” Gregory of Tours, Eight Books of Miracles, 1:4 (inter A.D. 575-593).

“As the most glorious Mother of Christ, our Savior and God and the giver of life and immortality, has been endowed with life by him, she has received an eternal incorruptibility of the body together with him who has raised her up from the tomb and has taken her up to himself in a way known only to him.” Modestus of Jerusalem, Encomium in dormitionnem Sanctissimae Dominae nostrae Deiparae semperque Virginis Mariae (PG 86-II,3306),(ante A.D. 634).

“It was fitting …that the most holy-body of Mary, God-bearing body, receptacle of God, divinised, incorruptible, illuminated by divine grace and full glory …should be entrusted to the earth for a little while and raised up to heaven in glory, with her soul pleasing to God.” Theoteknos of Livias, Homily on the Assumption (ante A.D. 650).

“You are she who, as it is written, appears in beauty, and your virginal body is all holy, all chaste, entirely the dwelling place of God, so that it is henceforth completely exempt from dissolution into dust. Though still human, it is changed into the heavenly life of incorruptibility, truly living and glorious, undamaged and sharing in perfect life.” Germanus of Constantinople, Sermon I (PG 98,346), (ante A.D. 733).

 

[Mannyfit75]

“St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven.” John of Damascene, PG (96:1) (A.D. 747-751).

“It was fitting that the she, who had kept her virginity intact in childbirth, should keep her own body free from all corruption even after death. It was fitting that she, who had carried the Creator as a child at her breast, should dwell in the divine tabernacles. It was fitting that the spouse, whom the Father had taken to himself, should live in the divine mansions. It was fitting that she, who had seen her Son upon the cross and who had thereby received into her heart the sword of sorrow which she had escaped when giving birth to him, should look upon him as he sits with the Father, It was fitting that God’s Mother should possess what belongs to her Son, and that she should be honored by every creature as the Mother and as the handmaid of God.” John of Damascene, Dormition of Mary (PG 96,741), (ante A.D. 749).

“Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten Thy Son our Lord incarnate from herself.” Gregorian Sacramentary, Veneranda (ante A.D. 795).

“[A]n effable mystery all the more worthy of praise as the Virgin’s Assumption is something unique among men.” Gallican Sacramentary, from Munificentis simus Deus (8th Century).

“God, the King of the universe, has granted you favors that surpass nature. As he kept you virgin in childbirth, thus he kept your body incorrupt in the tomb and has glorified it by his divine act of transferring it from the tomb.” Byzantine Liturgy, from Munificentis simus Deus (8th Century).

“[T]he virgin is up to now immortal, as He who lived, translated her into the place of reception.” Timotheus of Jerusalem (8th Century).

Assumption of Mary is ancient Christian Tradition. It is supported in Scripture. The woman in Revelation 12 appeared in heaven. This woman is Mary because the child she give birth to is male child who will rule the nations.

 

[charlye]

Your point is moot unless you can point to Scriptural documentation that all knowledge is contained in the Bible.

How about 2 Tim 3:16 … “all Scripture is God-breathed” … it is inspired by God’s Holy Spirit through the men who penned it … they were superintended by God so that they wrote without error God’s word to man.

But if that doesn’t suffice … try this declaration from the Documents of Vatican II, “Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation … “Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must acknowledge as teaching firmly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writing for the sake of our salvation”.

Charlye

 

[Mannyfit75]

How about 2 Tim 3:16 … “all Scripture is God-breathed” … it is inspired by God’s Holy Spirit through the men who penned it … they were superintended by God so that they wrote without error God’s word to man.

But if that doesn’t suffice … try this declaration from the Documents of Vatican II, “Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation … “Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must acknowledge as teaching firmly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writing for the sake of our salvation”.

Charlye

I have a question for you. Prior to the Reformation, Christians have 73 Books in the OT. Consider that Paul wrote all Scripture in 2 Tim 3:16.

Protestants have 66 OT text. If they claim 2 Tim 3:16 is inspired then why did Protestant 7 Books from the OT? I don’t think they truly believe all Scripture is inspired since they remove the 7 OT text during the Reformation…Then how can you claim it is inspired when you remove the 7 Books of the OT during the Reformation?

 

[diarmait]

Help! My plane’s been hijacked!

 

[water]

Help! My plane’s been hijacked!

I just called 911.

Think of this way - Virgin Mary was very obedient to God. Whatever He asked, she would say “Be it done unto me according to Thy Word”.

 

[Zooey]

You question is moot unless you can point to Scriptural documentation of her assumption.

Charlye

What Biblical support is there for Mary’s Assumption?

What Biblical support is there for refusing to accept anything unless it has Biblical support???
A discussion on whether or not one believes in the Assumption is the subject for another thread.

 

[Verbum]

Hi diarmait,

Mary’s Assumption was a free gift of God. Nothing she did made her “deserve” it. It was a consequence of her sinlessness, which is also a privilege which she did not earn.

Read the definition of the dogma in Munificentissimus Deus:

1. For which reason, after we have poured forth prayers of supplication again and again to God, and have invoked the light of the Spirit of Truth, for the glory of Almighty God who has lavished his special affection upon the Virgin Mary, for the honor of her Son, the immortal King of the Ages and the Victor over sin and death, for the increase of the glory of that same august Mother, and for the joy and exultation of the entire Church; by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own authority, we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma:
   that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.

Fulll text :
ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P12MUNIF.HTM