Did Mary die and is buried in the Jesophat Valley in Jerusalem?

[Madaglan]

Hi my friend Madaglan!

I didn’t know, very frankly, I admit as to what is a “BVM”.

I therefore googled for it:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bag_valve_mask

A bag valve mask (also known as a BVM or Ambu bag) is a hand-held device used to provide positive pressure ventilation to a patient who is not breathing or who is breathing inadequately. The device is a normal part of a resuscitation kit for trained professional, such as ambulance crew. The BVM is frequently used in hospitals, and is an essential part of a crash cart. The device is used extensively in the operating room to ventilate an anaesthetised patient in the minutes before a mechanical ventilator is attached. The device is self-filling with air, although additional oxygen (O2) can be added.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bag_valve_mask

Yet, I don’t think they had such a facility there in the first century in a tomb where Jesus had been laid for resuscitation or recovery in the scheduled time of three days; which some Catholics say might have happened on the third day as they would argue in a fix.

Paul mistook resuscitation as resurrection, in my opinion; and later when Jesus went up the hills over the low clouds on a curvy path in Galilee, secretly, towards his journey to India, Paul mistook it, in my opinion, as ascension. Paul might be erring though, in my opinion; to err is human.

I love Jesus and Mary

Thanks

BVM is an acronym for the Blessed Virgin Mary.

In medieval Europe, some people claimed to have milk from the breasts of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

 

[Agripa]

Cremation was, and still is, shunned in Jewish culture. Fire besides creates smoke, which draws attention.

The Dead Sea, the closest body of water to Jerusalem, where Jesus was entombed, is the saltiest and densest body of water. Besides the natural tendency towards buoyancy, earthquakes are common in the region, which would tend to loosen and release objects on the lake floor.

The Romans persecuted the Christians for centuries before Christianity was accepted as the religion of the Empire. Moreover, the early Roman Christians were, by and large, not the senators, prefects, emperors and other important persons of state, but the lower strata of society.

First, Rome saw early Christians as Jews - and they were always persecuting Jews - or any other population they ruled and which needed subjugation!

And from my perspective, it would not have been the Jews who would have burned Jesus’ body - my postulation is if we are looking for motives to destroy the body of Jesus, it would have been the Romans at some point between his crucifixion and the point when christianity was elevated as a state religion - and at that point, the senators, prefects and sub governors would have followed the Emporer’s lead. The Romans would hardly have had a problem burning a body.

As far as water, there were lots of bodies of water - the Agean, the Mediterraiean, Gallalie, The River Jordan, The Hellespont, and numerous wells and oasies in any number of deserts in the area! The Mid East is a big area and things are buried there that we will be finding - or never finding for centuries to come! Heck they could have re buried him in some other tomb with someone elses’ name - or a potter’s grave - with hundreds of bodies - we are talking about a time when dead bodies were numerous and burials were often perfunctory and careless. I am simply saying it could have easily been done.

As far as smoke, a buring fire two thousand years ago was as common as strip malls today - hardly would have drawn attention!! People burned all sorts of flesh as part of ritual, getting rid of diseased animals, leapors, etc.

Remember, it was a less civilized time - not like today at all! (OK, accept for many Muslim countries still living in the ninth century!)

 

[Bill_Pick]

Hi my friend Madaglan!

I didn’t know, very frankly, I admit as to what is a “BVM”.

I therefore googled for it:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bag_valve_mask

A bag valve mask (also known as a BVM or Ambu bag) is a hand-held device used to provide positive pressure ventilation to a patient who is not breathing or who is breathing inadequately. The device is a normal part of a resuscitation kit for trained professional, such as ambulance crew. The BVM is frequently used in hospitals, and is an essential part of a crash cart. The device is used extensively in the operating room to ventilate an anaesthetised patient in the minutes before a mechanical ventilator is attached. The device is self-filling with air, although additional oxygen (O2) can be added.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bag_valve_mask

Yet, I don’t think they had such a facility there in the first century in a tomb where Jesus had been laid for resuscitation or recovery in the scheduled time of three days; which some Catholics say might have happened on the third day as they would argue in a fix.

Paul mistook resuscitation as resurrection, in my opinion; and later when Jesus went up the hills over the low clouds on a curvy path in Galilee, secretly, towards his journey to India, Paul mistook it, in my opinion, as ascension. Paul might be erring though, in my opinion; to err is human.

I love Jesus and Mary

Thanks

parr I hope you can see how LITTLE You know about Cathloic all Christian believe Jesus was rised of the 3 day. and all Christian know what the BVM is and I for one do not think you are funny but you may be ,this just my opinion

 

[Madaglan]

First, Rome saw early Christians as Jews - and they were always persecuting Jews - or any other population they ruled and which needed subjugation!

And from my perspective, it would not have been the Jews who would have burned Jesus’ body - my postulation is if we are looking for motives to destroy the body of Jesus, it would have been the Romans at some point between his crucifixion and the point when christianity was elevated as a state religion - and at that point, the senators, prefects and sub governors would have followed the Emporer’s lead. The Romans would hardly have had a problem burning a body.

As far as water, there were lots of bodies of water - the Agean, the Mediterraiean, Gallalie, The River Jordan, The Hellespont, and numerous wells and oasies in any number of deserts in the area! The Mid East is a big area and things are buried there that we will be finding - or never finding for centuries to come! Heck they could have re buried him in some other tomb with someone elses’ name - or a potter’s grave - with hundreds of bodies - we are talking about a time when dead bodies were numerous and burials were often perfunctory and careless. I am simply saying it could have easily been done.

As far as smoke, a buring fire two thousand years ago was as common as strip malls today - hardly would have drawn attention!! People burned all sorts of flesh as part of ritual, getting rid of diseased animals, leapors, etc.

Remember, it was a less civilized time - not like today at all! (OK, accept for many Muslim countries still living in the ninth century!)

Your theory does not pan out too well. During Christ’s lifetime, Rome was at a high point in its worldly glory. There was little concern then that the Empire was on the brink of collapse, and therefore no need for a resurrection belief to accompany a ressurrected empire. There was no real motive for the Romans in Jerusalem to take Jesus’ body and burn it.

I suppose Jesus’ body could be placed in another tomb, mixed in with the rabble, etc. Or even moved over distance to another body of water. Yet, I see no reason for the Romans in Jerusalem to do this. Rather than risking their lives to plant the seeds of a future ressurrected empire ideology, the Romans in Jerusalem were rather concerned with keeping the peace. The Jewish leaders in fact sought Roman security over the tomb, to *prevent *the followers of Jesus from taking the body and claiming Jesus had ressurrected. If the Romans could keep Jesus’ body in the tomb, they would make the Jewish leaders happy, and would quash the disturbance amongst the Jewish people.

Well sure, fires were common. But smoke whose scent is burning human flesh and body: not an everyday occurrence in Jerusalem. Once you smell it, you wonder where it’s coming from.

I’m familiar with the burning of lepers’ contaminated clothing, but not so with the burning of lepers’ corpses. Lepers were made outcasts of society and lived in their own leper colonies. I do not see the urgency of burning the lepers when those burning them would already have been diseased. Burial, in line with the Law, seems much more likely with Jewish lepers.

 

[Agripa]

Your conspiracy theory does not pan out too well. During Christ’s lifetime, Rome was at a high point in its worldly glory. There was little concern then that the Empire was on the brink of collapse, and therefore no need for a resurrection belief to accompany a ressurrected empire. There was no real motive for the Romans in Jerusalem to take Jesus’ body and burn it.

I suppose Jesus’ body could be placed in another tomb, mixed in with the rabble, etc. Yet, I see no reason for the Romans in Jerusalem to do this. Rather than risking their lives to plant the seeds of a future ressurrected empire ideology, the Romans in Jerusalem were rather concerned with keeping the peace. The Jewish leaders in fact sought Roman security over the tomb, to *prevent *the followers of Jesus from taking the body and claiming Jesus had ressurrected.

Well sure, fires were common. But smoke whose scent is burning human flesh and body: not an everyday occurrence in Jerusalem. Once you smell it, you wonder where it’s coming from.

I’m familiar with the burning of lepers’ contaminated clothing, but not so with the burning of lepers’ corpses. Lepers were made outcasts of society and lived in their own leper colonies. I do not see the urgency of burning the lepers when those burning them would already have been diseased. Burial, in line with the Law, seems much more likely with Jewish lepers.

I would encourage you to read about Roman (and early Christian history) from what was probably Rome’s apex - Augustus - to its mid- demise - 200 CE (Common Era) and then to the 3 and 400’s as Rome (both cities, Rome and Constantinople) had to fend off, make deals with and assimilate with the various barbaric tribes.

This is the time period I am talking about and I am not focusing on just Jeruselem of the New Testement time period - but a much wider time period and area - Remember, early Christianity was not at all developed or organized for several centuries - all of the accounts of Jesus’ life were written after he died, in some cases decades after his death, then what we know of Jesus or writings about him was scrutinized, translated, and edited and the message / history travelled through all sorts of tumult, political upheavals, wars, etc. before it was distillated at various official gatherings - not the least of which was the Nicean Council led by the Emporer Constantine who was a key figure in resolving various theological debates about who Christ was - and this was 300 years into the Common Era!!!

Once I began to see this much wider view of both Christianity and the power (and fate of) of Rome over a large historical period, many, many things about the Catholic Faith - and by extention, Christianity itself, began to make better sense.

 

[Madaglan]

I would encourage you to read about Roman (and early Christian history) from what was probably Rome’s apex - Augustus - to its mid- demise - 200 CE (Common Era) and then to the 3 and 400’s as Rome (both cities, Rome and Constantinople) had to fend off, make deals with and assimilate with the various barbaric tribes.

This is the time period I am talking about and I am not focusing on just Jeruselem of the New Testement time period - but a much wider time period and area - Remember, early Christianity was not at all developed or organized for several centuries - all of the accounts of Jesus’ life were written after he died, in some cases decades after his death, then what we know of Jesus or writings about him was scrutinized, translated, and edited and the message / history travelled through all sorts of tumult, political upheavals, wars, etc. before it was distillated at various official gatherings - not the least of which was the Nicean Council led by the Emporer Constantine who was a key figure in resolving various theological debates about who Christ was - and this was 300 years into the Common Era!!!

Once I began to see this much wider view of both Christianity and the power (and fate of) of Rome over a large historical period, many, many things about the Catholic Faith - and by extention, Christianity itself, began to make better sense.

The height of the Roman Empire is more oft accorded to the 2nd century, when the Five Good Emperors reigned.

Christianity was organized. This is not only seen in the early canonical epistles (some dated earlier than the gospels) in which bishops are established for communities, but in extra-canonical writings of the early Christians as well. You may want to look into the writings of St. Ignatius of Antioch, if you have not already. Even long before the Council of Nicaea, there were catechetical schools, synods and communications among bishops. St. Constantine would not have been able to assemble a council of bishops from across the Empire if the Christians were disorganized. John Behr’s The Way of Nicaea is a good resource for this period of early Christianity. Eusebius of Caesaria’s Ecclesiastical History also shows early organization of the Church.

 

[Agripa]

:knight2: :knight2:

The height of the Roman Empire is more oft accorded to the 2nd century, when the Five Good Emperors reigned.

Christianity was organized. This is not only seen in the early canonical epistles (some dated earlier than the gospels) in which bishops are established for communities, but in extra-canonical writings of the early Christians as well. You may want to look into the writings of St. Ignatius of Antioch, if you have not already. Even long before the Council of Nicaea, there were catechetical schools, synods and communications among bishops. St. Constantine would not have been able to assemble a council of bishops from across the Empire if the Christians were disorganized. John Behr’s The Way of Nicaea is a good resource for this period of early Christianity. Eusebius of Caesaria’s Ecclesiastical History also shows early organization of the Church.

St. Constantine was an amazing saint - he had his wife and son killed while he returned from the Nicean Council. But since they were rumored to be sleeping with each other, they probably deserved Constantine’s righteous rath!! :knight2:

And while the early church was “organized” to a point (as were other nominal sects and religious groups), I am talking more perhaps to Christianity’s far greater (and more powerful) institutionalization under the auspices of Rome.

Two books I recomend are the Collected Works of Josephus as compiled by Wm. Whiston and Justinian’s Flea: Plague, Empire, and the Birth of Europe by William Rosen. Rosen relies heavily on Edward Gibbon, Decline & Fall of the Roman Empire. :coffeeread:

 

[Madaglan]

:knight2: :knight2:

St. Constantine was an amazing saint - he had his wife and son killed while he returned from the Nicean Council. But since they were rumored to be sleeping with each other, they probably deserved Constantine’s righteous rath!! :knight2:

And while the early church was “organized” to a point (as were other nominal sects and religious groups), I am talking more perhaps to Christianity’s far greater (and more powerful) institutionalization under the auspices of Rome.

Two books I recomend are the Collected Works of Josephus as compiled by Wm. Whiston and Justinian’s Flea: Plague, Empire, and the Birth of Europe by William Rosen. Rosen relies heavily on Edward Gibbon, Decline & Fall of the Roman Empire. :coffeeread:

The details behind the relationship and the executions are not entirely clear. According to one account, Fausta attempted to seduce Crispus and later made accusations against him. Crispus was executed by Constantine on this suspicion, and Fausta died later, either by execution or suicide.

I don’t have the Collected Works of Josephus as complied by Wm. Whiston; I do however own The Complete Works of Josephus translated by William Whiston and published by Thomas Nelson Publishers. It’s probably about the same. I’ve seen Justinian’s Flea in bookstores but haven’t read it.