Did Mary die or not?/Assumption

  • Thread starter Thread starter RileyG
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Prayer_Warrior said:
Yes, I am aware Enoch and Elijah. I certainly do not doubt that God could have taken Mary up without her having died first as with those two OT men. (Moses was not assumed according to the Scriptures; Dt 34:5-6 says he died and was buried, plus Jude 9 talks about his body being disputed by Archangel Michael and Satan. I am aware that there are talmudic references to an assumption of Moses. Wouldn’t it be fascinating if he was assumed after death, like Mary? We can’t know, of course.)

Anyway, my point was only that it seems more in line with Mary’s character to have been united with Jesus in the experience of death. That was merely an opinion on my part (which was largely formed after reading Blessed John Paul’s thoughts on the matter). Additionally, it is clear that the Church has consistently taught that Mary died prior to being assumed into heaven.
Click to expand...
This is simply untrue. The church has been long divided. Why would an experience Canon Lawyer who is a priest tell me otherwise if the majority were as you say? I think that just because the majority on HERE feel that way doesn’t speak for the entire Church.

Lorrie
 
Prayer_Warrior said:
It seems to me that Mary’s death would be a further testament to the unity between the Mother and her Son. Although she certainly didn’t have to die in order to accomplish God’s plan of salvation, she is united with Jesus in the experience of death as she was so united in every other aspect of her life. She walked the path He walked and it males me love and respect her all the more. Some mystics say that the Lord gave her the choice to die or not and she chose death because He did. Of course, we are under no obligation to believe in mystics. However, the thought of that kind of unity seems to fit more with who Mary always showed herself to be. These are just random thoughts on the subject and nothing binding, however more compelling than this is that the overwhelming evidence that the Church always taught that she died. This, combined with Blessed JPII’s letter, settles the matter for me personally.
Click to expand...
This sounds all nice and all, but I see no theological reason for this. I do not know her character and wouldn’t presume to know her character. Besides it’s the character of her Son, who may have chosen to keep her from death like Elijah, who never died. It’s Jesus, her Son and her God who makes that choice.
 
Well it seems that some have decided that the personal views of others are binding so I can see that it’s easier to do that than to think for yourself. I am going to go onto writing my blog on the topic. I am presenting the list at the start of the discussion for people to see both sides.

I am convinced beyond all doubt she did not die before her assumption. I was told by no less than 4 priests that her dying is not commonly believed by the majority. It’s pretty much divided and one of those opinion is a priest with a great many years experience.
I can’t believe people would think that Elijah would merit more consideration and be excused from death and not the Mother of God. God is the one who decides what honors she is bestowed. It is His choice and I firmly believed He honored Her in this way.

God bless, and I’m off to write my blog on the topic.
Blessed Mother Pray for Us.
 
Irishgal49 said:
I asked my priest about this last Saturday at our church picnic and he said she fell into a deep sleep and was taken into heaven. Death is the penalty for sin and because she never sinned, she did not die. He’s a canon lawyer but I have no idea what his theological training is other than what he needs to be a priest for 9 years.

Lorrie
Click to expand...
Jesus, who is God, who assumed human nature, also died.
“Apostle’s Creed”…
… I believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord.
… suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified,** died**, and was buried
 
Irishgal49 said:
Well it seems that some have decided that the personal views of others are binding so I can see that it’s easier to do that than to think for yourself. I am going to go onto writing my blog on the topic. I am presenting the list at the start of the discussion for people to see both sides.

I am convinced beyond all doubt she did not die before her assumption. I was told by no less than 4 priests that her dying is not commonly believed by the majority. It’s pretty much divided and one of those opinion is a priest with a great many years experience.
I can’t believe people would think that Elijah would merit more consideration and be excused from death and not the Mother of God. God is the one who decides what honors she is bestowed. It is His choice and I firmly believed He honored Her in this way.

God bless, and I’m off to write my blog on the topic.
Blessed Mother Pray for Us.
Click to expand...
You are allowed to hold that view as we are not bound to believe one way or the other. I believe Mary died first but I cannot say to you that you are wrong because the Church lets both of us hold our respective views.
 
thistle said:
You are allowed to hold that view as we are not bound to believe one way or the other. I believe Mary died first but I cannot say to you that you are wrong because the Church lets both of us hold our respective views.
Click to expand...
You have provided no magisterial sources for your claims about what Catholic are allowed or not allowed to hold.

The ordinary Papal Magisterium teaches, non-infallibly, that Mary died and rose prior to her Assumption. See my post above for the references.

Non-infallible teachings require religious submission of will and intellect. There is some limited room for licit theological dissent from a non-infallible teaching. But it is not true that Catholics are free to believe whatever they like, when the Magisterium has a non-infallible teaching.

“In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra” (Lumen Gentium 25).
 
Ron_Conte said:
You have provided no magisterial sources for your claims about what Catholic are allowed or not allowed to hold.

The ordinary Papal Magisterium teaches, non-infallibly, that Mary died and rose prior to her Assumption. See my post above for the references.

Non-infallible teachings require religious submission of will and intellect. There is some limited room for licit theological dissent from a non-infallible teaching. But it is not true that Catholics are free to believe whatever they like, when the Magisterium has a non-infallible teaching.

“In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra” (Lumen Gentium 25).
Click to expand...
The Church does not teach that Mary died first and neither does the Church state in MUNIFICENTISSIMUS DEUS that Mary died.
“having completed the course of her earthly life” does not mean she died. That expression was carefully worded by the Pope to allow for both meanings.
The only reference to Mary dying in MD was that of some Church Fathers who believed it. That does not make it a Church teaching.
 
thistle said:
“having completed the course of her earthly life” does not mean she died.
Click to expand...
Yes it does. It is clear if you read the ENTIRE document that she died. It is worded in a way that affirms that Mary is alive in heaven because she was resurrected by Christ. She has received final resurrection ahead of any of us.
 
Prayer_Warrior said:
It seems to me that Mary’s death would be a further testament to the unity between the Mother and her Son. Although she certainly didn’t have to die in order to accomplish God’s plan of salvation, she is united with Jesus in the experience of death as she was so united in every other aspect of her life. She walked the path He walked and it males me love and respect her all the more. Some mystics say that the Lord gave her the choice to die or not and she chose death because He did. Of course, we are under no obligation to believe in mystics. However, the thought of that kind of unity seems to fit more with who Mary always showed herself to be. These are just random thoughts on the subject and nothing binding, however more compelling than this is that the overwhelming evidence that the Church always taught that she died. This, combined with Blessed JPII’s letter, settles the matter for me personally.
Click to expand...
👍:tiphat::angel1::harp::heaven::amen::blessyou:
 
ConstantineTG said:
If Mary did not die, then what is this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomb_of_the_Virgin_Mary

thistle, you have been catechized 👍
Click to expand...
Wait, so various saints have claimed it, but where is the authoritative document from the Catholic Church stating absolutely that Mary died and that this is absolutely her tomb and proves her death?

I’m withThistle. The Catholic Church does not teach that Mary did actually die, or whether she ‘fell asleep’ and was assumed before death. The Church teaches that she was assumed “Body and Soul” into heaven, neither "dead body and soul’ nor ‘live body and soul’, but simply ‘body’ and soul.

According to Scripture and Catholic teaching, the saint Elijah was ‘taken up to heaven in a whirlwind’. But the Church does not say that Elijah was thus living when he was assumed, or whether he was assumed body and soul --and if it was just the soul, what has happened to the body if it’s not with him.

So it is not without precedent that a person has ‘gone to heaven’ without being stated specifically to have died before going.

"Catechised’ to me would be citing the Church’s teaching, not an article in Wiki. Last I knew, Wiki is not the teaching authority of the Catholic Church. 😃
 
Tantum_ergo said:
Wait, so various saints have claimed it, but where is the authoritative document from the Catholic Church stating absolutely that Mary died and that this is absolutely her tomb and proves her death?

I’m withThistle. The Catholic Church does not teach that Mary did actually die, or whether she ‘fell asleep’ and was assumed before death. The Church teaches that she was assumed “Body and Soul” into heaven, neither "dead body and soul’ nor ‘live body and soul’, but simply ‘body’ and soul.

According to Scripture and Catholic teaching, the saint Elijah was ‘taken up to heaven in a whirlwind’. But the Church does not say that Elijah was thus living when he was assumed, or whether he was assumed body and soul --and if it was just the soul, what has happened to the body if it’s not with him.

So it is not without precedent that a person has ‘gone to heaven’ without being stated specifically to have died before going.

"Catechised’ to me would be citing the Church’s teaching, not an article in Wiki. Last I knew, Wiki is not the teaching authority of the Catholic Church. 😃
Click to expand...
GREAT COMMENT. Believe Wiki??? OK no comments about my mixed up sources. NONE. 😃
 
Irishgal49 said:
My priest stated AGAIN today when I asked him there is NO SIN committed if you believe the Blessed Mother did not die before the assumption. NONE.

Oh and my priest is a canon lawyer.
Click to expand...
The faith is more than rules, don’t leave it to lawyers 👍

Ask a theologian.
 
ConstantineTG said:
The faith is more than rules, don’t leave it to lawyers 👍

Ask a theologian.
Click to expand...
So you would ignore the expert opinion of a priest who happens to be a canon lawyer and accept the expert opinion of Wiki?

:DOK, you know I am NOT picking on you (well I hope you know). I understand that you mean well. And I myself am just as persistent when I’m sure that I am right as you; also you are well-mannered, well-spoken, well-informed, funny and nice. . .

But you’re still wrong IF you are claiming that Catholics MUST believe that Mary died and was assumed, and are WRONG if they believe that she might NOT have physically died. The Church does not, and has not, specifically taught (check the 1950 encyclical and the CCC) that the phrase ‘when her earthly course was finished’ MUST be understood or translated as ‘died’.
 
Tantum_ergo said:
So you would ignore the expert opinion of a priest who happens to be a canon lawyer and accept the expert opinion of Wiki?
Click to expand...
Not just because a priest is a canon lawyer means they know everything. I’ve known priests who have no idea about Eastern Catholicism. One RC priest even told me that there are 12 Rites in the Catholic Church, corresponding to the 12 Apostles. We know that is not true.

Canon Law is a different thing, it is not theology. It is the law of the Church.
da_nolo said:
:DOK, you know I am NOT picking on you (well I hope you know). I understand that you mean well. And I myself am just as persistent when I’m sure that I am right as you; also you are well-mannered, well-spoken, well-informed, funny and nice. . .

But you’re still wrong IF you are claiming that Catholics MUST believe that Mary died and was assumed, and are WRONG if they believe that she might NOT have physically died. The Church does not, and has not, specifically taught (check the 1950 encyclical and the CCC) that the phrase ‘when her earthly course was finished’ MUST be understood or translated as ‘died’.
Click to expand...
We always tell nominal Catholics that they must believe and follow EVERYTHING the Catholic Church teaches, yet when it comes to things like this we nit pick and argue about what is de fide and what is not. The Church is more than a list of de fide beliefs. I’m pretty sure such nitpicking did not exist in the Church prior to the influence of Fundamentalism.
 
From the Festal Menaion (Byzantine Rite):
Tradition relates that the Mother of God died in Jerusalem, after a visit with all of Christ’s apostles. They carried her coffin to the Garden of Gethsemane where it was placed into a tomb. The apostle Thomas came late, and asked that the tomb might be opened so that he could reverence her body. When opened, the tomb was found empty except for the winding sheet.
Click to expand...
 
ConstantineTG said:
Not just because a priest is a canon lawyer means they know everything. I’ve known priests who have no idea about Eastern Catholicism. One RC priest even told me that there are 12 Rites in the Catholic Church, corresponding to the 12 Apostles. We know that is not true.

Canon Law is a different thing, it is not theology. It is the law of the Church.

We always tell nominal Catholics that they must believe and follow EVERYTHING the Catholic Church teaches, yet when it comes to things like this we nit pick and argue about what is de fide and what is not. The Church is more than a list of de fide beliefs. I’m pretty sure such nitpicking did not exist in the Church prior to the influence of Fundamentalism.
Click to expand...
Yes it did. I think it was worse prior to the mid-60’s. Legalism and fundamentalism were far worse. Catholic fundamentalism is no better than Protestant fundamentalism, but I don’t think it is influenced by it. Fundamentalism appeals to a certain personality type. But I’m not going to go there, it’s too touchy a subject and not pertinent to the discussion at hand.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top