Did Mary experience physical death before her assumption?

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That’s all rather nonsensical. The former does not entail the latter. Furthermore, a soul cannot be resurrected without a body, as resurrection is by definition the rejoining of body and soul. We are Christians, not Platonists.
Whats nonsensical elaborate for us.

Where is this infallible teaching in history? I don’t see where its posted?

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CDMQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FAssumption_of_Mary&ei=HHajU-2MJOfL8wGbjYAY&usg=AFQjCNFEpnnqiUMCwaMIr8U23zz6-sFuKQ

“Orthodox tradition is clear and unwavering in regard to the central point [of the Dormition]: the Holy Virgin underwent, as did her Son, a physical death, but her body – like His – was afterwards raised from the dead and she was taken up into heaven, in her body as well as in her soul.”

Your saying two different things, do you have the teaching you propose or is either acceptable? Which one is infallible? Isn’t this nonsensical?
 
Do you have the teaching you propose or is either acceptable? Which one is infallible?
Whats less authoritative and how many teachings are there? I can’t see how this relates to what is proposed as an infallible teaching. Either thats incorrect or there must be an understanding.

“The Dormition is less dogmatically than liturgically and mystically defined. Such differences spring from a larger pattern in the two traditions, wherein Catholic teachings are often dogmatically and authoritatively defined – in part because of the more centralized structure of the Catholic Church– while in Eastern Orthodoxy, many doctrines are less authoritative.”

But death isn’t defined in relation to Mary? Which is the truth in relation to above and we know this is the truth how? Less authoritative means what?
 
google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0CB0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FDormition_of_the_Mother_of_God&ei=bIGjU_fNF4ewyASe6IKgCA&usg=AFQjCNHLJc1ZSenDTD9IiOSZ_giHoa1Fqg

The Dormition of the Mother of God (Greek: Κοίμησις Θεοτόκου, Koímēsis Theotokou often anglicized as Kimisis, Slavonic: Успение Пресвятыя Богородицы, Uspenie Presvetia Bogoroditsi) is a Great Feast of the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches which commemorates the “falling asleep” or death of Mary, the mother of Jesus (literally translated as God-bearer), and her bodily resurrection before being taken up into heaven. It is celebrated on August 15 (August 28, N.S. for those following the Julian Calendar) as the Feast of the Dormition of the Mother of God. The Armenian Apostolic Church celebrates the Dormition not on a fixed date, but on the Sunday nearest August 15.

Then it states here…

The Orthodox Church specifically holds one of two Roman Catholic alternative beliefs, teaching that Mary died a natural death, like any human being; that her soul was received by Christ upon death; and that her body was resurrected on the third day after her repose, at which time she was taken up, bodily only, into heaven when the apostles, miraculously transported from the ends of the earth, found her tomb to be empty.

Which relates to here…

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpages.uoregon.edu%2Fsshoemak%2Ftexts%2FdormitionG2%2FdormitionG2.htm&ei=6oOjU8_zNpacqAbx0oKYDw&usg=AFQjCNGU66mfCDBUCxWausdkLru67UQL0w

[anastasis.org.uk/15aug.htm](http://www.anastasis.org.uk/15aug.htm)

When you departed, Virgin Mother of God, to the One who was born ineffably from you, James, God’s brother and first Hierarch, was present with Peter, the most honoured high summit of the Theologians, and all the godly choir of the Apostles; in teachings that revealed the things of God they sang in praise of the divine and amazing mystery of Christ’s dispensation; and as they buried your body, source of life and which had received God, O all-praised, they rejoiced. From above the all-holy and most venerable of the Angelic Powers, amazed at the wonder, bowed and said to one another: ‘Lift up your gates and receive her who gave birth to the Maker of heaven and earth. And let us praise with hymns of glory the revered and holy body which contained the Lord on whom we may not look’. Therefore we too, as we celebrate your memory, cry out to you, all-praised: ‘Exalt the horn of Christians and save our souls’.

This is sixth century, its revelation not historic fact as indicated. Are you saying this private revelation is infallible?

Didn’t Mark of Ephesus reject private revelation with Rome and state it may well be delusional?

Maybe we ought to “admit” we do not know what happened at Marys resurection or assumption?
 
When is the earliest dating of the Dormition? The footnotes all date to 5-6th century, Book of Miracles, John the Theologian, Maximus the Confessor etc. I think after Chalcedon there was a marion devotion increase in the East. We don’t even know for sure where her earthy journey ended. The accounts vary earlier as indicated in the articles. When does the Feast date back to I don’t see anything before the 5th, I assumed it went to the 3rd.

I have to think this is why the Pope declared the dogma. And the further conversation really is body and soul and in all of our Christian understanding.

What about the scriptural consensus?
 
Do you understand that the word “cemetery” is from the Greek word “κοιμητήριο” which has as its root “κοιμάμαι”, the word for “sleep”? This is the same word at the root of “Η Κοίμηση της Θεοτόκου” (The Dormition of the Theotokos). Do you honestly believe that all the people buried in the cemetery are merely sleeping?
Then how do you define what happened to Mary when she is exempted from original sin? :confused:

Remember that we are born with original sin while Mary is exempted from it.
 
The Theotokos was not free from all the consequences of the original sin of Adam and Eve. St. Pope John Paul II expressed the following in 1997:3. It is true that in Revelation death is presented as a punishment for sin. However, the fact that the Church proclaims Mary free from original sin by a unique divine privilege does not lead to the conclusion that she also received physical immortality. The Mother is not superior to the Son who underwent death, giving it a new meaning and changing it into a means of salvation.

Involved in Christ’s redemptive work and associated in his saving sacrifice, Mary was able to share in his suffering and death for the sake of humanity’s Redemption. What Severus of Antioch says about Christ also applies to her: “Without a preliminary death, how could the Resurrection have taken place?” (Antijulianistica, Beirut 1931, 194f.). To share in Christ’s Resurrection, Mary had first to share in his death.
vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1997/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_25061997_en.html

For reference the dogma is, in English “We declare, pronounce and define that the doctrine which holds that the Blessed Virgin Mary, at the first instant of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace of the Omnipotent God, in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of mankind, was preserved immaculate from all stain of original sin, has been revealed by God, and therefore should firmly and constantly be believed by all the faithful.”
 
Then how do you define what happened to Mary when she is exempted from original sin? :confused:

Remember that we are born with original sin while Mary is exempted from it.
This is a point of confusion and potential contention.
 
Original sin isn’t the issue, maybe worthy of a conversation, still it doesn’t change the incarnation nor would it change post Incarnation. This ties in with the 4th ecumenical council and Christs nature. “united with neither confusion nor division.”-451. This is another point definitely worthy of discussion and in relation to the Incarnation. As you read the Nature of Christ you will notice the hypostatic union which is of course east and west, and by critically acclaimed greek philosophers above such as with Plato. In this case Aristotle who is also linked in this thread earlier with the Father in relation to the OP and understanding death.

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FChristology&ei=QwKkU56iKtWeyASf6YDgCw&usg=AFQjCNElQx2R-yVhm5MboCPjujiEPZl9fw

A theological term used with reference to the Incarnation to express the revealed truth that in Christ one person subsists in two natures, the Divine and the human. Hypostasis means, literally, that which lies beneath as basis or foundation.

NOTE- Hence it came to be used by the Greek philosophers to denote reality as distinguished from appearances (Aristotle, “Mund.”, IV, 21).

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&sqi=2&ved=0CDMQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newadvent.org%2Fcathen%2F07610b.htm&ei=twCkU_6pDYfNsQSly4DQDg&usg=AFQjCNHZw0aGcBZ9H4QZj0xK87zahRpoWQ

Anyway this gives one insight into sin and the incarnation.

The Liturgy linked above you see repetitive wording of Mary a Virgin with no spot. A Virgin is a virgin, the linguistics further define, not what a Virgin is since its self descriptive. This is repetitive language and from very early on with Immaculate, spot, stain etc. So sin would be the conclusion and the east would have to reach this point also, especially when understanding a Saint and the particular and general judgement. Or we don’t want to elaborate here but we will with Marys death which isn’t elaborated on by definition, but sin with Mary in fact is.

As to the particular judgement and general judgement the Church’s have the same belief *. This could be found by the West right below and in the CCC 675 to 682 and of course with further in depth reading.

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CB0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newadvent.org%2Fcathen%2F08550a.htm&ei=_wWkU-SUK4WayATj1oDIDg&usg=AFQjCNFOmTGQu-U-voXHLO7g6bseY735Rw

As indicated above, the earlier testimony varies and this Saint is very telling in this regard.

Epiphanius of Salamis, a Jew by birth, born in Phoenicia, converted to Christianity in adulthood and has lived as a monk for over 20 years in Palestine with 335-340 for 362 years, writes in “Panarion” in “Contra antidicomarianst” about the death of the Virgin Mary following: “If any think < I > am mistaken, moreover, let them search through the scriptures any neither find Mary’s death, nor whether or not she died, nor whether or not she was buried — even though John surely traveled throughout Asia. And yet,nowhere does he say that he took the holy Virgin with him. Scripture simply kept silence because of the overwhelming wonder, not to throw men’s minds into consternation. For I dare not say — though I have my suspicions, I keep silent. Perhaps, just as her death is not to be found, so I may have found some traces of the holy and blessed Virgin.[3]” “The holy virgin may have dead and been buried — her falling asleep was with honor, her death in purity, her crown in virginity. Or she may have been put to death — as the scripture says, “And a sword shall pierce through her soul” — her fame is among the martyrs and her holy body, by which light rose on the world, [rests] amid blessings. Or she may have remained alive, for God is not incapable of doing whatever he wills. No one knows her end. But we must not honor the saints to excess; we must honor their Master. It is time for the error of those who have gone astray to cease.[4]” On how the Virgin Mary died between Christians in the late 4th century there were different opinions, including the opinion was martyrdom Mary. For this reason, Ambrose, for example, wrote: “Neither the letter of Scripture nor Tradition does not teach us that Mary had left this life as a consequence of suffering from bodily ulcers.”

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCQQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FDormition_of_the_Mother_of_God&ei=BwmkU6j_K4mjyAT7_oBI&usg=AFQjCNHLJc1ZSenDTD9IiOSZ_giHoa1Fqg

As to the Christian understanding of the resurrection alluded to, perhaps we can apply this to Enoch and Elijah? You see scripture does speak on this point.

Elijah wanted to die, that didn’t happen in the Bible because its Gods will, not ours. The suggestion that Mary wanted to die is validated where and how? Who is so sure Gods will for Mary was different and how do you arrive at this conclusion? Because there are bodies in a grave? Because there is a 5th century Marion increase in devotion?

Isn’t this why Marys death was never defined? Further in the early writings from the 5th century it was very common to suggest Saints from the earlier centuries confirm and validate their teachings. Though no footnotes are ever provided to verify. For example Saint Maximus suggests his work is believed by St Athanasius among many others from earlier centuries. But this cannot be validated. Or when did the east start investigating private revelation?*
 
You’re more than capable of looking it up yourself.
Yes I am, and did, as with all the rest above, and it “does not exit” as historic fact.

And this quote should be read again and I’ll tell you why, “its still a historic fact”!

St, Epiphanius of Salamis, in “Panarion” in “Contra antidicomarianst” - About the death of the Virgin Mary following: “If any think I am mistaken, moreover, let them search through the scriptures any neither find Mary’s death, nor whether or not she died, nor whether or not she was buried — even though John surely traveled throughout Asia. And yet, nowhere does he say that he took the holy Virgin with him. Scripture simply kept silence because of the overwhelming wonder, not to throw men’s minds into consternation. For I dare not say — though I have my suspicions, I keep silent. Perhaps, just as her death is not to be found, so I may have found some traces of the holy and blessed Virgin.” "The holy virgin may have died and been buried — her falling asleep was with honor, her death in purity, her crown in virginity. Or she may have been put to death — as the scripture says, “And a sword shall pierce through her soul” — her fame is among the martyrs and her holy body, by which light rose on the world, [rests] amid blessings. Or she may have remained alive, for God is not incapable of doing whatever he wills…

No one knows her end."

Scriptural and historic fact.

Ironic isn’t it. Also ironic in the same work by the Saint is that he also addressed the linguistics above with holy Mary forward and you can look that up. Mary was “never” in apostolic and Church history thought to be anything but …Immaculate-spotless-stainless in a word- “sinless”, and compared to Her Son in the same manner with linguistics and not only by this Saint but by St Athanasius and several others who’s writings survived this “earlier” period of persecution.

I don’t understand, how it is that this is ignored and pious tradition is proposed as fact and in the liturgies as indicative above?
 
Yes I am, and did, as with all the rest above, and it “does not exit” as historic fact.
So for you to accept something occurred at some point in history, someone had to write it down on paper at the time? You don’t believe it if witness accounts were originally only transmitted orally?
And this quote should be read again and I’ll tell you why, “its still a historic fact”!
[snip]
" No one knows her end."
The Church in Jerusalem did, and maintained the knowledge in their local tradition. It did not become more widely known until the Emperor Marcian and Empress Pulcheria requested her relics for the church they had built in her honor
 
For those of you who claim that Blessed Mother Mary’s death was a sure thing:
In the first three centuries there are absolutely no references in the authentic works of the Fathers or ecclesiastical writers to the death or bodily immortality of Mary. Nor is there any mention of a tomb of Mary in the first centuries of Christianity. The veneration of the tomb of the Blessed Virgin at Jerusalem began about the middle of the fifth century; and even here there is no agreement as to whether its locality was in the Garden of Olives or in the Valley of Josaphat. Nor is any mention made in the Acts of the Council of Ephesus (431) of the fact that the Council, convened to defend the Divine Maternity of the Mother of God, is being held in the very city selected by God for her final resting place. Only after the Council did the tradition begin which placed her tomb in that city.
The earliest known (non-Apocryphal) mention concerning the end of Mary’s life appears in the writings of St. Epiphanius, Bishop of Constantia, the ancient Salamina, in the isle of Cyprus. Born in Palestine, we may assume that he was well aware of the traditions there. Yet we find these words in his Panarion or Medicine Chest (of remedies for all heresies), written in c. 377: "Whether she died or was buried we know not."7 Speaking of the cautious language used by St. Epiphanius, Father Roschini says: "To understand his words fully we must remember that he was conscious, when writing, of two heresies which were then living and dangerous: that of the Antidicomarianites, and that of the Collyridians. The former denied the perpetual virginity of Mary, the latter, erring in the opposite direction, maintained that divine worship should be given to her. To assert that Our Lady died was to give a handle to the one heresy (for it was to suggest that the body of Mary was subject to the corruption of the tomb, and thus minimize her prerogatives); to assert that she did not die was to encourage the other."8 And with the exception of a so-called contemporary of Epiphanius, Timothy of Jerusalem, who said: "Wherefore the Virgin is immortal up to now, because He who dwelt in her took her to the regions of the Ascension,"9 no early writer ever doubted the fact of her death. They did not, however, examine the question; they merely took the fact of her death for granted.
**Apparently influenced by the apocryphal Transitus writings of the fifth to the seventh centuries, later Fathers and Church writers likewise spoke of the death of Mary as a fact taken for granted. **For all men, including Christ, died: therefore, Mary, too. Like their predecessors, they did not consider ex professo the theological arguments for or against.
**St. Isidore of Seville (d. 636) appears to be the first to cast some doubt upon the fact of Mary’s death. Obviously ignoring the Apocrypha, he said of the death of Mary: ". . . nowhere does one read of her death. Although, as some say, her sepulchre may be found in the valley of Josaphat."10 ** Tusaredo, a Bishop in the Asturias province of Spain in the eighth century, wrote: "Of the glorious Mary, no history teaches that she suffered martyrdom or any other kind of death."11 Although St. Andrew of Crete (d. 720) generally introduced much theological argumentation into his writings, he states, with very little argumentation, that Mary died because her Son died.12 The same is true of a similar teaching of St. John Damascene (d. 749).13 And about one hundred years later, Theodore Abou-Kurra (d. c. 820) likened the death of Mary to the sleep of Adam in the Garden when God formed Eve from one of his ribs.14 This, obviously, was not a true death.
All the great Scholastics of the thirteenth century taught that Mary died. The principal reason for their so teaching was obviously the fact that they denied the Immaculate Conception in the sense in which it was defined by Pope Pius IX.15 Thus we read in the writings of St. Bonaventure: "If the Blessed Virgin was free from original sin, she was also exempt from the necessity of dying; therefore, either her death was an injustice or she died for the salvation of the human race. But the former supposition is blasphemous, implying that God is not just; and the latter, too, is a blasphemy against Christ for it implies that His Redemption is insufficient. Both are therefore erroneous and impossible. Therefore Our Blessed Lady was subject to original sin."16
After the definition of the Immaculate Conception by Pope Pius IX in 1854 the question of whether or not Our Blessed Lady died gradually became a subject of wide theological discussion and is today one of the most widely disputed Mariological questions. The impetus to further study out of which arose the present state of dispute was given by the writings of Dominic Arnaldi of Genoa who died in the year 1895. Arnaldi defended the thesis that Our Blessed Lady’s complete freedom from sin demanded her freedom from the penalty of death.17
Today we have diametrically opposed views on the death of Mary supported by outstanding Mariologists. . . . . . It is little wonder, then, that Cardinal Pizzardo, the Secretary of the Congregation of the Holy Office, in an address on the occasion of the First International Mariological Congress in Rome (1950) referred to the question of the end of the life of the Blessed Virgin as a very obscure problem, and one which demands further study and clarification by theologians.23
 
So for you to accept something occurred at some point in history, someone had to write it down on paper at the time? You don’t believe it if witness accounts were originally only transmitted orally?

The Church in Jerusalem did, and maintained the knowledge in their local tradition. It did not become more widely known until the Emperor Marcian and Empress Pulcheria requested her relics for the church they had built in her honor
It would be easier to accept the existence of this oral tradiation and its adherence within the church, if the idea were not contradicted in the writings of Epiphanius.
 
I have been a reader of CAF for a number of years but have never really thought about being a poster. The tone of this thread - especially orchestrated by GaryTaylor and josie L - has brought me to the point of feeling physically ill and it brought me to register and post just to show you that this thread has become one of the most vile, disgusting, and un-Christian displays of arrogance I have ever seen on this forum and it is a scandal that these posters have not been immediately banned for harassment and antagonizing the membership of the Eastern Catholic Forum.

GaryTaylor, how dare you come into an Eastern Catholic forum and disparage our traditions, completely ignore our perspectives, and insist that the “magic sentence” of Pius XII’s decree is all that is binding on “Catholics” - who do you think you are? Do you believe all of these apologists on CAF are infallible? You arrogantly and vehemently denounce anyone who dares contradict them, and you use them as an infallible resource apparently.

Your tone has become increasingly vile and you time and time again disrespect our Orthodox brethren. You do realize that we - Orthodox and Eastern Catholic - have different theology and therefore have absolutely no interest in limiting ourselves to “dogma” as proclaimed by Rome - you are insisting that we adopt a Latin mindset concerning dogmatics and it is insufferably insulting.

I have seen Latin Catholics come into the Eastern Catholic forum without realizing where the thread is posted and offering Latin Catholic perspective answers for years, but this has to stop. It is not acceptable for you to come into an Eastern Catholic subforum and spew your vile hatred towards our traditions and not be called out on it. This is not your home, if you want to go insist on belittling Eastern tradition then go to another subforum and do it.

Everyone who has been offended by these posters, please report them and tell the moderators exactly how you feel. I have been physically ill reading these terribly offensive posts and I am ashamed that they have not heeded any reprimands they have possibly received and continue to post such vitriolic things.

I pray for you, GaryTaylor, because you have reduced me to tears - my brethren in the Middle East have been martyred for upholding these traditions that you seem to hold in such low regard. My faith cannot be reduced to a few dogmatic sentences and I refuse to be told that my entire faith tradition is meaningless in comparison to a modern Latin innovation that completely ignores 2000 years of tradition.

And yes, Eastern Christians do know what death is, despite there not being a dogma proclaimed by Rome, perhaps you should stop acting like a child and admit that “death” still has meaning after the Resurrection. All of us still suffer death, even though Christ defeated Death on the Cross.

I call on you to apologize and recant your vitriolic behavior. Please, I beg you.
 
I have been a reader of CAF for a number of years but have never really thought about being a poster. The tone of this thread - especially orchestrated by GaryTaylor and josie L - has brought me to the point of feeling physically ill and it brought me to register and post just to show you that this thread has become one of the most vile, disgusting, and un-Christian displays of arrogance I have ever seen on this forum and it is a scandal that these posters have not been immediately banned for harassment and antagonizing the membership of the Eastern Catholic Forum.

GaryTaylor, how dare you come into an Eastern Catholic forum and disparage our traditions, completely ignore our perspectives, and insist that the “magic sentence” of Pius XII’s decree is all that is binding on “Catholics” - who do you think you are? Do you believe all of these apologists on CAF are infallible? You arrogantly and vehemently denounce anyone who dares contradict them, and you use them as an infallible resource apparently.

Your tone has become increasingly vile and you time and time again disrespect our Orthodox brethren. You do realize that we - Orthodox and Eastern Catholic - have different theology and therefore have absolutely no interest in limiting ourselves to “dogma” as proclaimed by Rome - you are insisting that we adopt a Latin mindset concerning dogmatics and it is insufferably insulting.

I have seen Latin Catholics come into the Eastern Catholic forum without realizing where the thread is posted and offering Latin Catholic perspective answers for years, but this has to stop. It is not acceptable for you to come into an Eastern Catholic subforum and spew your vile hatred towards our traditions and not be called out on it. This is not your home, if you want to go insist on belittling Eastern tradition then go to another subforum and do it.

Everyone who has been offended by these posters, please report them and tell the moderators exactly how you feel. I have been physically ill reading these terribly offensive posts and I am ashamed that they have not heeded any reprimands they have possibly received and continue to post such vitriolic things.

I pray for you, GaryTaylor, because you have reduced me to tears - my brethren in the Middle East have been martyred for upholding these traditions that you seem to hold in such low regard. My faith cannot be reduced to a few dogmatic sentences and I refuse to be told that my entire faith tradition is meaningless in comparison to a modern Latin innovation that completely ignores 2000 years of tradition.

And yes, Eastern Christians do know what death is, despite there not being a dogma proclaimed by Rome, perhaps you should stop acting like a child and admit that “death” still has meaning after the Resurrection. All of us still suffer death, even though Christ defeated Death on the Cross.

I call on you to apologize and recant your vitriolic behavior. Please, I beg you.
How dare you claim my posts were offensive, this sir/ma’am, is an OFFENSIVE post (it’s a sin against charity to claim the things you have about people you know absolutely nothing about), not anything I nor Gary Taylor has said was even remotely offensive. :mad:
 
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