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ReaderT
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But God would never send someone without sin to hell, in the Catholic understanding
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Did Mary get baptized? Did she even need to?
- Thread starter Tis_Bearself
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Our Lady was “preservatively redeemed” by Our Lord’s Passion in eternity. (Yes, I know it sounds a little loopy at first blush.) Dr William Marshner of Christendom College wrote a very good explanation of this, I’ll have to dredge it up, if I can.Tis_Bearself:
Just to tug on this thread a little more: what did Mary need for salvation then, in the Catholic understanding? If she didn’t have original (or any other) sin, did she even “need” a Savior? Wouldn’t she have just gone to Heaven as she was?
If this qualifies as Sacred Tradition, then I would say we now have our answer. On what basis do they say this?
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ReaderT
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Well, it would be the logical outcome according to Orthodox soteriology, which in this instance would be different than Catholic, due to a different understanding about original sin and the mortal/venial distinction.
Salvation in our understanding doesn’t involve “the absence of mortal sin”, but μετάνοια - “changing the mind” until one’s disposition is to want to be close to God and do His will - “to love God with all our minds and hearts”. Mary’s “spirit rejoiced in God her Savior” and she served Him (“handmaid of the Lord”) and did whatever He commanded. She considered herself “lowly” (Luke 1:48) and would’ve accepted baptism as any other regular person.
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ReaderT
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I’d like to know more about what that means. If she was “preservatively redeemed” at the moment of her conception, does that mean she didn’t do anything for her salvation - not even faith, let alone any works?
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
As apologist Tim Staples has explained, Mary needed a savior as shown by her reference to “God, My Savior” in the Magnificat.
But God’s saving of Mary occurred by God giving her the grace to be preserved at the moment of her conception from sin (Original and non-original). That’s the “Preservatively Redeemed” teaching that Homeschool Dad was referring to.
And of course Mary always did God’s Will. Her “Fiat” is the greatest example of this. She could have said “No”. So yes, she had a hand in her own salvation, and was not just a little robot of God.
timstaples.com
But God’s saving of Mary occurred by God giving her the grace to be preserved at the moment of her conception from sin (Original and non-original). That’s the “Preservatively Redeemed” teaching that Homeschool Dad was referring to.
And of course Mary always did God’s Will. Her “Fiat” is the greatest example of this. She could have said “No”. So yes, she had a hand in her own salvation, and was not just a little robot of God.
The Immaculate Conception - TimStaples.com
Romans 3:23 says, “All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” I John 1:8 adds, “If any man says he has no sin he is a liar and the truth is not in him.” These texts could not be clearer for millions of Protestants: “How could anyone believe Mary was free from all sin in light of...
timstaples.com
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Of course she did have faith, and of course she did “do works” ---- wouldn’t being the Theotokos be a grand “work” in and of itself? Dr Marshner could probably better explain it. I’m going to go online and see if I can find the article I’m thinking of, or at least the same arguments.HomeschoolDad:
I’d like to know more about what that means. If she was “preservatively redeemed” at the moment of her conception, does that mean she didn’t do anything for her salvation - not even faith, let alone any works?
Here 'tis. That was easy. (As the Staples guy would say, the one who sells office supplies, not Tim.)
https://marshner.christendom.edu/?p=959
No one could love the Internet more than I — precisely for reasons such as this!
https://marshner.christendom.edu/?p=959
No one could love the Internet more than I — precisely for reasons such as this!
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ReaderT
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My point was that she did those after her salvation was granted, not in order to be saved - so in Catholic thinking she was saved without any professed faith and without first doing any works?
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I’d have to defer to Dr Marshner on that. Mariology is not my field of expertise. But it might be worth noting that redemption is not salvation. We are all “redeemed”, but we have to accept that redemption, and follow it up with both faith and works, to be saved. Again, she obviously had both in abundance.HomeschoolDad:
My point was that she did those after her salvation was granted, not in order to be saved - so she was saved without any professed faith and without first doing any works?
Tis_Bearself
Patron
She was given the grace to act on earth in such a way as to be saved.
This would be equivalent to what you wrote,
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EloyCraft
Guest
John offers his life of purity and the groom’s best man ‘who stands next to Him and listens in his baptism. Like his life His Baptism makes a straight way. A Baptism to prepare hearts to hear the Word.
Jesus’ words baptize his disciples preparing their hearts to witness the cross and resurrection and receive the Holy Spirit.
Jesus receives a Baptism from the Father.
The sound of Mary’s voice initiated the baptism of John the Baptist and His mother. I doubt they were Baptized by the Apostles into Christ’s life.
Mary shared in her Son’s Baptism from the Father at the foot of the cross. It prepared her to be clothed in the sun.
Jesus’ words baptize his disciples preparing their hearts to witness the cross and resurrection and receive the Holy Spirit.
Jesus receives a Baptism from the Father.
The sound of Mary’s voice initiated the baptism of John the Baptist and His mother. I doubt they were Baptized by the Apostles into Christ’s life.
Mary shared in her Son’s Baptism from the Father at the foot of the cross. It prepared her to be clothed in the sun.
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ReaderT
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That seems to be different than what HomeschoolDad said - namely that she was saved before ever setting foot on earth - if I’m not mistaken. Apologies for any misinterpretation here.
Tis_Bearself
Patron
I’m gravitating quite a bit towards this explanation.
Although I also agree that Mary being very humble and already comporting with all sorts of Jewish purity rituals out of humility, would have accepted a water baptism.
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EloyCraft
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I believe she would to. Even if it were to make sure no one felt less than.
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PilgrimMichelangelo
Guest
Just a stab in the dark–wouldn’t the Mother of God have been baptized with the Holy Spirit and Fire not only at Pentecost, but also when the Most High overshadowed her at the moment of the Incarnation?
St. Ephraim the Syrian: “As lightning illuminates what is hidden, so also Christ purifies what is hidden in the nature of things. He purified the Virgin also and then was born, so as to show that where Christ is, there is manifest purity in all its power. He purified the Virgin, having prepared her by the Holy Spirit, and then the womb, having become pure, conceived him. He purified the Virgin while she was inviolate; wherefore having been born, He left her virgin. I do not say that Mary became immortal, but that being illuminated by grace, she was not disturbed by sinful desires.” –Homily 41
“The Light abode in her, cleansed her mind, made her thoughts pure, made chaste her concerns, and sanctified her virginity.” --Ibid. Mary and Eve
St. Ephraim the Syrian: “As lightning illuminates what is hidden, so also Christ purifies what is hidden in the nature of things. He purified the Virgin also and then was born, so as to show that where Christ is, there is manifest purity in all its power. He purified the Virgin, having prepared her by the Holy Spirit, and then the womb, having become pure, conceived him. He purified the Virgin while she was inviolate; wherefore having been born, He left her virgin. I do not say that Mary became immortal, but that being illuminated by grace, she was not disturbed by sinful desires.” –Homily 41
“The Light abode in her, cleansed her mind, made her thoughts pure, made chaste her concerns, and sanctified her virginity.” --Ibid. Mary and Eve
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Diaconia
Guest
And, in the Savior’s own blood, shed upon her at the foot of the cross.
The Mother of God certainly came in contact with His blood at the disposition from the Life Giving Tree.
Deacon Christopher
The Mother of God certainly came in contact with His blood at the disposition from the Life Giving Tree.
Deacon Christopher
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7_Sorrows
Guest
If Joseph died before Jesus began his ministry and before John the Baptist made his appearance, how could Joseph have been baptized?
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Montrose
Guest
We don’t know when Joseph died. People tend to assume he was dead before the crucifixion.
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Allie1
Guest
I am going to take a different approach and bring about a different theory.
When speaking of the Blessed Mother most people forget to mention the other significant
man in her life, Saint John the Evangelist. The aithor of the Gospel of John.
At the foot of the cross, Jesus gave Mary to be cared for by John… as a mother and as a son.
John 19:26-27
When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to her, “Woman, here is your son,” and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home
I’ve always been taught that this disciple, who took the Blessed Mother into his home, as being Saint John the Evangelist.
If it is Saint John, then I don’t believe that she would have lived with John without receiving baptism.
Because
I have also heard it said that, through tradition, before Saint John the Evangelist was a disciple of Jesus, that he was an apostle of Saint John the Baptist.
John 1:35-37
The next day again John was standing with two of his disciples, and he looked at Jesus as he walked by and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God!” The two disciples heard him say this, and they followed Jesus.
One of the disciples, is said in the Gospel to be Saint Andrew. The other disciple is not named, but traditionally believed to be Saint John the Evangelist.
Being how I do believe that Saint John the Evangelist was a disciple of both Saint John the Baptist and Jesus. I do think that he strongly believed in baptism. And if our blessed mother wasn’t baptized before her son Jesus died on the cross, then I do believe that she would have been baptized while living, as a mother, in the home of her son…Saint John the Evangelist.
It is in his gospel where this is written:
John 3:5-7
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again
This is my theory. Feel free to pick it apart.
When speaking of the Blessed Mother most people forget to mention the other significant
man in her life, Saint John the Evangelist. The aithor of the Gospel of John.
At the foot of the cross, Jesus gave Mary to be cared for by John… as a mother and as a son.
John 19:26-27
When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to her, “Woman, here is your son,” and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home
I’ve always been taught that this disciple, who took the Blessed Mother into his home, as being Saint John the Evangelist.
If it is Saint John, then I don’t believe that she would have lived with John without receiving baptism.
Because
I have also heard it said that, through tradition, before Saint John the Evangelist was a disciple of Jesus, that he was an apostle of Saint John the Baptist.
John 1:35-37
The next day again John was standing with two of his disciples, and he looked at Jesus as he walked by and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God!” The two disciples heard him say this, and they followed Jesus.
One of the disciples, is said in the Gospel to be Saint Andrew. The other disciple is not named, but traditionally believed to be Saint John the Evangelist.
Being how I do believe that Saint John the Evangelist was a disciple of both Saint John the Baptist and Jesus. I do think that he strongly believed in baptism. And if our blessed mother wasn’t baptized before her son Jesus died on the cross, then I do believe that she would have been baptized while living, as a mother, in the home of her son…Saint John the Evangelist.
It is in his gospel where this is written:
John 3:5-7
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again
This is my theory. Feel free to pick it apart.
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Tis_Bearself
Patron
There is a school of thought that Joseph was somehow baptized in the womb like John the Baptist. In order to make him worthy of being husband to Mary.
And yes, we presume he was dead before the Crucifixion as otherwise he would have been there and Jesus would not have been putting Mary into John’s care.
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