Did Mary give birth in pain?

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+JMJ+

Even if by reading Luke’s account, if Mary had a painful birth, it could be insinuated Mary sinned?

Remember what I said: a newborn child MUST be cleaned and swaddled right away because of a baby’s poor heat retention, and the baby can easily die of hypothermia if this was not done. A newborn baby is covered with fluids that can rob him of heat right away, and thus must be cleaned as soon as possible.

IF Mary did this when she was dead tired from giving birth when Joseph was around, then she would have exposed Jesus as well as herself to unnecessary danger, and that would have been a sin.

This is the reason why I cannot understand why Luke would neglect to say anything about Joseph’s help in Jesus’ birth if Mary had a painful birth. Joseph’s help in this case would be important to show that Mary would not have sinned during Jesus’ birth by swaddling Him and placing Him on the manger…IF Mary had a painful labor and birth.
Since Jesus, according to the law, did not open the womb of Mary,it would be safe to say she had no contractions which are the cause of pain. Since adam our first parent was formed from the dust of the ground it would be safe to say that he was created and brought forth without pain too.

it is said by a few saints that as Mary brought forth Jesus she experienced the beatific vision and was in total rapture. I believe this to be true and the actual means by which Jesus left the womb of Mary is as miraculous as the way He incarnated by the Holy Spirit.

Since protestants in general do not even believe Mary was ever virgin(as in she had other children by Joseph) the idea of a miraculous birth is not even considered it is always assumed Mary gave birth in the traditional means, yet we as Catholics have the third great joyful mystery of the rosary to ponder- the Nativity or birth of our Lord and Savior,Jesus Christ.
 
Dear moderator

As I was reviewing my last post on the thread “Did Mary give birth in pain” I noticed an icon next to the thread title.The icon is a red face that looks sad.when i put the cursor over it it says it means angry.I am not angry and do not recall selecting that icon for my reply.I tried to go back and delete it but the time limit had expired.Could you please do me the kind favor of deleting that silly icon.Thank you and God bless
 
+JMJ+
Dear moderator

As I was reviewing my last post on the thread “Did Mary give birth in pain” I noticed an icon next to the thread title.The icon is a red face that looks sad.when i put the cursor over it it says it means angry.I am not angry and do not recall selecting that icon for my reply.I tried to go back and delete it but the time limit had expired.Could you please do me the kind favor of deleting that silly icon.Thank you and God bless
LOL I was wondering why would you be angry with my last post 😃
 
+JMJ+

Even if by reading Luke’s account, if Mary had a painful birth, it could be insinuated Mary sinned?
Remember what I said: a newborn child MUST be cleaned and swaddled right away because of a baby’s poor heat retention, and the baby can easily die of hypothermia if this was not done. A newborn baby is covered with fluids that can rob him of heat right away, and thus must be cleaned as soon as possible.

IF Mary did this when she was dead tired from giving birth when Joseph was around, then she would have exposed Jesus as well as herself to unnecessary danger, and that would have been a sin.

This is the reason why I cannot understand why Luke would neglect to say anything about Joseph’s help in Jesus’ birth if Mary had a painful birth. Joseph’s help in this case would be important to show that Mary would not have sinned during Jesus’ birth by swaddling Him and placing Him on the manger…IF Mary had a painful labor and birth.
I’m simply saying that Luke’s silence on the matter isn’t necessarily telling either way.

I don’t understand how caring for her child even if she is exhausted would be sinful. Whether Joseph was standing in the corner or gone to get food for their supper, how is it in any way sinful for Mary to take care of things herself? It’s not unnecessary danger, as you pointed out it’s extremely necessary. And certainly not impossible. I’ve given birth 3 times and while I was exhausted, not to the point that I couldn’t have cleaned and warmed my baby if I had to.

Another possibility: she didn’t swaddle the baby right away and simply held him close to her inside her robes until she recovered a little. Swaddling itself isn’t necessary for the baby to survive, if it was we would still be doing it.

In any case, I’m not arguing for or against Mary’s pain in childbirth, I’m open either way. I just don’t agree that Luke’s choice of words is necessarily indicative of anything.
 
snip

In any case, I’m not arguing for or against Mary’s pain in childbirth, I’m open either way. I just don’t agree that Luke’s choice of words is necessarily indicative of anything.
I agree completely. We know what did happen from Luke’s account, but we must not infer that every little detail that he didn’t mention did not happen.
 
I forgot to put the quotes in the proper place so my post sounds a little incoherent. Here’s an edited version.
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nuntym:
]Remember what I said: a newborn child MUST be cleaned and swaddled right away because of a baby’s poor heat retention, and the baby can easily die of hypothermia if this was not done. A newborn baby is covered with fluids that can rob him of heat right away, and thus must be cleaned as soon as possible.

IF Mary did this when she was dead tired from giving birth when Joseph was around, then she would have exposed Jesus as well as herself to unnecessary danger, and that would have been a sin.

This is the reason why I cannot understand why Luke would neglect to say anything about Joseph’s help in Jesus’ birth if Mary had a painful birth. Joseph’s help in this case would be important to show that Mary would not have sinned during Jesus’ birth by swaddling Him and placing Him on the manger…IF Mary had a painful labor and birth.
I’m simply saying that Luke’s silence on the matter isn’t necessarily telling either way.

I don’t understand how caring for her child even if she is exhausted would be sinful. Whether Joseph was standing in the corner or gone to get food for their supper, how is it in any way sinful for Mary to take care of things herself? It’s not unnecessary danger, as you pointed out it’s extremely necessary. And certainly not impossible. I’ve given birth 3 times and while I was exhausted, not to the point that I couldn’t have cleaned and warmed my baby if I had to.

Another possibility: she didn’t swaddle the baby right away and simply held him close to her inside her robes until she recovered a little. Swaddling itself isn’t necessary for the baby to survive, if it was we would still be doing it.

In any case, I’m not arguing for or against Mary’s pain in childbirth, I’m open either way. I just don’t agree that Luke’s choice of words is necessarily indicative of anything.
 
You’re certainly entitled to your opinion, but you’re wrong when you say the Church has always taught that. Read the post (mine) immediately before yours.
There are some key Church Fathers and Doctors of the Church who taught that Mary did not experience pain in childbirth, such as Ambrose, Gregory of Nyssa, John of Damascus, Oecumenius, etc… St. Thomas Aquinas, who always followed the mainstream Catholic thought, also taught the same. No disrespect, but I place these great Doctors of the Church much higher than a magazine article. But, you are correct in the sense of what has always been defined as Church teaching, but I find myself unable to deny or doubt the authority of such great Saints and Doctors of the Church.
 
+JMJ+
I don’t understand how caring for her child even if she is exhausted would be sinful. Whether Joseph was standing in the corner or gone to get food for their supper, how is it in any way sinful for Mary to take care of things herself?
One word: pride. Why WOULDN’T you not let anybody clean a baby up and swaddle it right away if somebody else can do it for you? Besides, you had epidural anesthesia, right? How much pain does that remove from childbirth?

However, I have to admit that what I am doing is asking a lot from just a line of Scripture, and I can’t blame the Church for not making an official statement about this, although there have been theologians that have taught Mary’s painless birth as COPLAND 3 has said above this post. Therefore I do not think it is going to affect anyone’s salvation whether to believe in it or not.
 
And the Virgin shall give Birth is by itself stating that the birth of THE SECOND PERSON Of The ALMIGHTY TRINITY was indeed Miraculous
You know Jesus HE walks on water,creates food, conquers death and changes the informational code of the universe with every Miracle which is to say that no force inside of creation is greater than the Creator

The more I see and study creation the more I’m humbled by GOD’S LOVE
Also I think or just wondering if the Star or the light that shone over (what we call the star of Bethlehem) MARY All through Pregnancy (the wise men had a long journey) Was not in fact the opening of dimension beyond Time to allow THE ETERNAL BEING to become Finite if all of that was going on Standing by MARY as Full of Grace and giving birth without pain in a state of full grace just means this was different as is rising from the dead
 
=SeanF1989;11532183]According to Genesis pain during childbirth is the result of Original Sin, Mary was born without Original Sin so did Our Lady give birth in pain? I didn’t think she did but I remember watching a film about Jesus’ life in school and the scene of his birth showed Mary in pain.
No:)

As I recall pain in childbirth was a direct result of Original sin; and Mary was permitted to be conceived perfectly. Genesis 3:16-17

God Bless you,
Patrick
 
Hi all. Please note that in Genesis the text says that a woman’s birth pains will be “greatly multiplied” (Gen 3:16), which suggests even Eve would have felt some pain prior to the Fall (after all 0 X anything = 0). So regardless of how you fall on this question, it seems Mary would have felt at least a minimal level of pain.
 
Here’s my take on this.

I’ve heard the argument that Mary didn’t experience pain during childbirth because she was conceived without Original Sin, and since pain in childbirth was a consequence of Original Sin, Mary would not have had this.

The problem with this argument is that it rests upon a false assumption; namely, that being conceived without Original Sin would free one from the consequences of Original Sin. We know this is false because Mary still required a savior (“my spirit rejoices in God my Savior”). The most important consequence of Original Sin, then, the closure of Heaven to man, Mary was still subject to until Jesus effectively reopened the gates.

One might also ask whether “not being subject to the consequences of Original Sin” would mean the restoration of the Preternatural Graces that Adam and Eve lost due to their Original Sin. That is, would Mary then have had infused knowledge, freedom from concupiscence and bodily immortality?

Let’s start with immortality. At first glance, it seems that she may have had this. After all, she was assumed into heaven, and therefore never died. Yet, Mary is not the only one to have been assumed into heaven. Henoch and Elijah also were. Might we suppose, then, that they too were free from Original Sin? The answer is no. They received a special grace for their righteousness. Likewise, we should cosnider the same to be true of Mary, though she was certainly far more deserving of it than Henoch and Elijah.

She certainly didn’t seem to have any infused knowledge. After all, she didn’t understand how she was to give birth without having had intimate relations with a man. Yet, as a faithful young Jewish girl, she would have known the prophecies of the Messiah being born of a virgin. She had no knowledge of her cousin’s pregnancy until it was revealed by the Angel. She didn’t know of Herod’s intention to kill her baby, that was revealed to Joseph. For all intents and purposes, Mary isn’t portrayed as more than a simple, virtuous, but incredibly blessed Jewish woman. At least, not until after her son’s passion and death.

What about concupiscence? It should be an important note that Adam and Eve were not tempted in the Garden. Rather, they were deceived. This is an important distinction. Temptation comes after the fall, when man is subject to concupiscence. Since our natures are fallen, our wills are inclined toward sin. Thus, we now become subject to temptation. We’re baited to sin, because that’s the direction our wills are aimed. Adam and Eve could not have been tempted in the Garden because their wills were properly oriented. Therefore, the attack was on the mind, through deception, as Satan’s was a superior intellect.

So was Mary subject to concupiscence? Well, we see that Jesus, Himself, was tempted, though He never succumbed to the temptation. Indeed, one of the features of Christ’s redemptive work is that he endured all things. He allowed Himself to be subjected to the consequences of sin in order to make debt restitution. One cannot make restitution if one does not accept the consequences of the offense. So, if Jesus was subject to concupiscence, though He never submitted to it, should we expect anything different from His mother? I would assert no, particularly if we are to call her co-redemptrix. How could she expect her son to bear all iniquity if she would not also subject herself the to consequences of sin?

In a great many ways we can see that Mary was not free from the consequences of Original Sin, or at least we have no compelling evidence to say that she was, even though she was free of Original Sin itself.

continued…
 
…continued

Rather, I would argue that it would be more fitting if Mary had endured pain in childbirth, for the following reasons:
  1. To do so would be to accept the consequences of Original Sin, which fits the whole scema of the Messiah’s work, of which Mary was a full participant.
  2. A basic principle of life is life out of death (i.e., the phoenix symbol). Animals are killed and consumed by other animals, and this brings about life. A forest fire burns away all the wood brush, clearing space for new life to grow, as well as opening certain seeds for new growth. The cells in our bodies are constantly renewing themselves through of a process of cell-death and replacement. Christ, Himself, brought about new life to humanity through His suffering and death. It is fitting that new life (a baby) is wrought through pain and anguish. It is especially fitting if that baby is the Messiah, who would bring about a new birth through suffering and dying.
  3. Genesis actually implies there was pain in childbirth prior to the Fall, and that after the Fall that pain would be increased.
  4. Revelations references a woman, who might be interpreted as Mary, as giving birth in pangs.
  5. The Church is silent on the matter, which is curious to me, since there were prominent Church figures (early Fathers, and such) who taught that she didn’t have pain in childbirth. That they taught this, yet the Church remains silent, indicates to me that there may be good reasons to believe that she did endure pain, but pious reason to believe she did not, and because it is not a matter of specific importance to the Faith and Salvation, it has allowed both views as a matter of freedom in piety.
  6. The style of God seems to be that of respecting the natural order of the world He created, except in extraordinary circumstances wherein His intervention is necessary for our eternal good. I don’t see the birth of Christ as being one of those circumstances, so it makes more sense to me that the birth should occur in the natural way, according to God’s creative design.
  7. Pain doesn’t necessarily mean agony or suffering. I’ve heard it said that only about 3% of our pain is true pain, the other 97% is psychological. That is, our minds magnify the actual pain to beyond what it is in reality. We imagine it to be worse than it is, which is why two people could experience the same kind of pain (for example a broken arm) and one might be wailing in horrified agony, while the other might be silently enduring it with a screwed up face (or take the example of two people getting vaccine needles, one wimpers and moans and passes out, while the other carries on a cheerful conversation with the nurse). Ostensibly, the physical sensation is the same, with relative degrees of difference due to perhaps minutely different sensitivities in pain reception. Thus, it may be that the pain of childbirth was magnified after the Fall because we became subject to darkened intellects (imagining it to be worse than it is) and concupiscence (desiring to escape the pain, even if we know that it’s natural and good), making the whole ordeal much more terrifying that it previously was. Thus, Mary may have had pain, but not to the same degree that might normally occur.
 
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