Did Mary have Salvation Assurance ? /// Do we?

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Mary’s testimonial song, recorded in Luke Chap 1, expresses absolute certainty about her “saved status” …both in present & future-tense language.

Any good reason in scripture/tradition why the Catholic laity & clergy eversince couldn’t lay claim to their future salvation… as she ?
 
As to Mary – we know she is in Heaven (indeed assumed body and soul). As to what she knew on earth --such is not told us --though she would have had the certitude of hope …and she knew well Jesus her son and the Lord.

As to “do we?”

I seek to live looking forward to the Resurrection! In the Joy of Knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. Rejoicing in already beginning to know true life in him.

(Now could I turn away from Christ before I die…rejecting in effect the life he gave me in Faith and Baptism (and all the other ways) and die in choice? --yes such is a possibility. May I remain living in Christ always!)

By the grace of God I intend to remain in Christ…a branch on his vine …to “abide in him” …to not be “cut off” (by my own choice)…(John 15:5-6, and Romans 11:22).

And if in this life I should unhappily commit a mortal sin…I intend to call out to the Good Shepherd and go to those whom he has given the authority to forgive me…to be forgiven and returned to life (John 20:22-23). I pray that I may always remain in him and thus leave this life remaining in life.

We walk by Faith not by sight (2 Cor 5:7)

and are saved in hope (see Romans 8:24)…and thus I have the great “certitude of hope”!

A real kind of assurance I have. A very real confidence. I do not though have “infallible” certitude. For example I do not know that I will in fact remain living in Christ and not betray him and die separated from him. And even now I could commit a mortal sin (Lord preserve me from this!). Indeed Jesus even said that not everyone who says to him “Lord Lord” will enter the kingdom of Heaven. (Matt 7:21)

But I have a great confidence in Christ my hope!

*I know in whom I have believed *(2 Tim 1:12)

My Faith and my hope and trust is in the Lord Jesus Christ! The Good Shepherd!

In him is* true life*.

Pope Benedict XVI:

Moreover, our radical belonging to Christ and the fact that “we are in him” must imbue in us an attitude of total trust and immense joy. In short, we must indeed exclaim with St Paul: “If God is for us, who is against us?” (Rom 8: 31). And the reply is that nothing and no one “will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom 8: 39). Our Christian life, therefore, stands on the soundest and safest rock one can imagine. And from it we draw all our energy, precisely as the Apostle wrote: “I can do all things in him who strengthens me” (Phil 4: 13).

Therefore, let us face our life with its joys and sorrows supported by these great sentiments that Paul offers to us. By having an experience of them we will realize how true are the words the Apostle himself wrote: “I know whom I have believed, and I am sure that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me”; in other words, until the Day (II Tm 1: 12) of our definitive meeting with Christ the Judge, Saviour of the world and our Saviour.

(From: vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html)
 
brb3 said:
Mary’s testimonial song, recorded in Luke Chap 1, expresses absolute certainty about her “saved status” …both in present & future-tense language.

Any good reason in scripture/tradition why the Catholic laity & clergy eversince couldn’t lay claim to their future salvation… as she ?
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Yes, we are all sinners. The Catholic Church has always taught that heaven is not an automatic thing that happens when you die. It is possible to choose hell by one’s actions or lack thereof.

Catholics tend to act like they can do anything they want and it doesn’t really matter. Not so.
 
As to Mary – we know she is in Heaven (indeed assumed body and soul). As to what she knew on earth --such is not told us --though she would have had the certitude of hope …and she knew well Jesus her son and the Lord.

As to “do we?”

I seek to live looking forward to the Resurrection! In the Joy of Knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. Rejoicing in already beginning to know true life in him.

(Now could I turn away from Christ before I die…rejecting in effect the life he gave me in Faith and Baptism (and all the other ways) and die in choice? --yes such is a possibility. May I remain living in Christ always!)

By the grace of God I intend to remain in Christ…a branch on his vine …to “abide in him” …to not be “cut off” (by my own choice)…(John 15:5-6, and Romans 11:22).

And if in this life I should unhappily commit a mortal sin…I intend to call out to the Good Shepherd and go to those whom he has given the authority to forgive me…to be forgiven and returned to life (John 20:22-23). I pray that I may always remain in him and thus leave this life remaining in life.

We walk by Faith not by sight (2 Cor 5:7)

and are saved in hope (see Romans 8:24)…and thus I have the great “certitude of hope”!

A real kind of assurance I have. A very real confidence. I do not though have “infallible” certitude. For example I do not know that I will in fact remain living in Christ and not betray him and die separated from him. And even now I could commit a mortal sin (Lord preserve me from this!). Indeed Jesus even said that not everyone who says to him “Lord Lord” will enter the kingdom of Heaven. (Matt 7:21)

But I have a great confidence in Christ my hope!

*I know in whom I have believed *(2 Tim 1:12)

My Faith and my hope and trust is in the Lord Jesus Christ! The Good Shepherd!

In him is* true life*.

Pope Benedict XVI:

Moreover, our radical belonging to Christ and the fact that “we are in him” must imbue in us an attitude of total trust and immense joy. In short, we must indeed exclaim with St Paul: “If God is for us, who is against us?” (Rom 8: 31). And the reply is that nothing and no one “will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom 8: 39). Our Christian life, therefore, stands on the soundest and safest rock one can imagine. And from it we draw all our energy, precisely as the Apostle wrote: “I can do all things in him who strengthens me” (Phil 4: 13).

Therefore, let us face our life with its joys and sorrows supported by these great sentiments that Paul offers to us. By having an experience of them we will realize how true are the words the Apostle himself wrote: “I know whom I have believed, and I am sure that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me”; in other words, until the Day (II Tm 1: 12) of our definitive meeting with Christ the Judge, Saviour of the world and our Saviour.

(From: vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2006/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20061108_en.html)
 
Catechism of the Catholic Church, scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a12.htm#1035

"1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."618
Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."
 
brb3 said:
Mary’s testimonial song, recorded in Luke Chap 1, expresses absolute certainty about her “saved status” …both in present & future-tense language.

Any good reason in scripture/tradition why the Catholic laity & clergy eversince couldn’t lay claim to their future salvation… as she ?
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To begin with, because none of us is God’s mother, conceived free from stain of original sin and in fullness of grace. To even think that we could equal Our Lady in dignity is an intolerable sin of vanity - and it is vain indeed, for nothing could be farther from the truth. In fact, if the great John the Baptist was unworthy to untie the Lord’s sandals, and the Roman who displayed more faith than everyone else was unworthy to receive the Lord under his roof, what is it to be said of us, wretched sinners who go from sin to sin all the days of our lives?

Furthermore, Holy Church teaches infallibly that presumption of salvation if one of the seven sins against the Holy Spirit.

Can we claim that we have been redeemed by Christ and that God wants us all to reach salvation? Yes, of course we can. But to presume salvation is gravely erroneous.

Now back to Our Lady: remember that the Jewish understanding of salvation was much different from the understanding that the Holy Spirit has granted to the Church. What the Blessed Virgin spoke, she spoke through the grace of the Holy Spirit, and I invite you to find out just how many parts of the Sacred Scriptures are quoted in her beautifully spontaneous Magnificat.

Did she have the assurance of salvation? Think about it this way: in grace we fulfill the law. It is a logical conclusion that she who was full of grace would fully fulfill the law. In fact, she who was predestined to become the Mother of God and as such the rightfull queen of heaven and earth was also logically predestined to be saved. But ultimately she was still endowed with free will - she could, in theory at least, have chosen not to do God’s will. But that is of course absurd, since in her wisdom she only chose what was pleasing to God.

That is not so with us. I invite you to read the writings of the saints. The greater their holiness in this world, the greater their awareness of how easily they were mistaken and offended God. In fact, the very St. Paul, aware of this, writes, full of humbleness:
the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. …] For I know that which is good does not dwell in me, that is to say, in my flesh. For to will, is present with me; but to accomplish that which is good, I find not. For the good which I will, I do not; but the evil which I will not, that I do.
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If Saint Paul said this, can any of us dare to claim more?
 
We have assurance if we follow the sacraments.

We don’t have assurance that we will follow them at our last moments.
 
Indeed… seems to be correct…

Heyyyyyyy… wait a minute…:confused:

So. Just how can we “Trust” in the Lord in a manner that St. Faustina seems to indicate, if we can not even trust ourselves to trust in Him? How can we legitimately even ask, with genuine sincerity, as the Hymm goes, the Lord, to: “Deep within thy wounds Lord, hide and shelter me, So that I may never be seperated from thee?”:hmmm:
 
Nimzovik said:
Indeed… seems to be correct…

Heyyyyyyy… wait a minute…:hmmm:

So. Just how can we “Trust” in the Lord in a manner that St. Faustina seems to indicate, if we can not even trust ourselves to trust in Him? How can we legitimately even ask, with genuine sincerity, as the Hymm goes, the Lord, to: “Deep within thy wounds Lord, hide and shelter me, So that I may never be seperated from thee?”:hmmm:
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forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10132318&postcount=3
 
Still seems like ‘loophole.’ No doubt we soon b gettin into Freedom versus Determinism (the elect) here…
 
capablanca911 said:
We have assurance if we follow the sacraments.

We don’t have assurance that we will follow them at our last moments.
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Exactly. If St. Paul was 'working out his salvation with fear and trembling, and did NOT think that he had already 'grasped the prize (of life on high with Jesus) ALREADY, then St. Paul must have been teaching the authentic Catholic teaching that we are ‘being saved’ by our cooperation with God who has freely given us salvation through Christ Jesus. The crux of course is that we don’t always cooperate. We sin and turn away from that free salvation. God is merciful to those who seek forgiveness, so we pray with St. Joan that if we are in a state of grace that we remain so, and if we are not that He put us there.

Would it not be presumptuous of us to believe that we sinful humans have an assurance of salvation because Christ died for us --and nothing else? That say a person who shot and killed innocent children just today (assuming he died unrepentent) would be assured of salvation because he once said, "I believe in God?’ and then not only did not follow God but actually did unrepented murder? (Please note, I hope this person actually DID truly repent of his evil before he died.)

I don’t know about the rest of you, but I have done some rather awful things in my life, and not all of them when I was ‘young’, either. And even the good things I have done aren’t all that great. At best, they were no more than what I should have done. At worst, they were done with mixed motives and not all and only for God’s glory.

Yet I should go around proclaiming that as a Christian I have 'salvation assurance" because I say that Christ is my savior? Knowing that I have not only done evil (repented yes, but I still did it) but that I could still go ON doing it?

I don’t think so. And I certainly don’t think it’s a teaching of the Catholic OR the Orthodox Faith, both of which have been around 2000 years and would be expected to know the truth.
 
brb3 said:
Mary’s testimonial song, recorded in Luke Chap 1, expresses absolute certainty about her “saved status” …both in present & future-tense language.
Click to expand...
I’m not actually sure she did express this. Perhaps you could clarify how you think she did so?

It is my understanding that Mary could have sinned, but did not choose to (and God saved her from the consequences of Original Sin that make sinning a certainty for the rest of us). Rather like Eve, I think, except that Eve did sin. I could be wrong of course, I am not terribly familiar with this sort of thing.
Any good reason in scripture/tradition why the Catholic laity & clergy eversince couldn’t lay claim to their future salvation… as she ?
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See Paul’s stuff about persevering to the end and working out salvation in fear and trembling.
 
Bookcat said:
Not loophole …reality.

I …as in me….I can scuttle my boat…abuse my free will…reject the grace of God…choose hell.

The rest of what I noted in the post above…that too is reality 🙂
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My point is that - sin enslaves the will and dulls the sense of sin. The point being that -how do we know we have not deluded ourself? The *nature *of sin is delusion itself. We go into the confessional and unpeel the onion of our souls. The digger we deep the more we understand and confess. *Meanwhile…:cool: *

Note as well,we are not to trust our own hearts, indeed - we must rely on theologians to interpret scripture for us. Then we must rely on our own selves, to a degree, to understand the Catechism.

At what point do we rely on heaven to ‘see us through’ when we are being stupid or willfull or stubborn or … well… imperfect.🤷
 
brb3 said:
Mary’s testimonial song, recorded in Luke Chap 1, expresses absolute certainty about her “saved status” …both in present & future-tense language.

Any good reason in scripture/tradition why the Catholic laity & clergy eversince couldn’t lay claim to their future salvation… as she ?
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…yeah, the Virgin Mary came from a different world (part of Israel’s Remnant who awaited for the Promise)… she attests to this in this way:
Mary said, ‘You see before you the Lord’s servant, let it happen to me as you have said.’ (St. Luke 1:38a)
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…sadly, both the clergy and laity continue to fall short of Mary’s confession and conviction–as Peter, that succumbed to the powers of nature and forgot that his safety laid in Jesus’ Hand, Believers do not lose Salvation because God takes it back (God is Eternal and once He States something it becomes and Eternal Oath) but because Believers fail to remain, as Mary did, Humble and Obedient Servants of Yahweh God!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Nimzovik said:
My point is that - sin enslaves the will and dulls the sense of sin. The point being that -how do we know we have not deluded ourself? The *nature *of sin is delusion itself. We go into the confessional and unpeel the onion of our souls. The digger we deep the more we understand and confess. *Meanwhile…:cool: *

Note as well,we are not to trust our own hearts, indeed - we must rely on theologians to interpret scripture for us. Then we must rely on our own selves, to a degree, to understand the Catechism.

At what point do we rely on heaven to ‘see us through’ when we are being stupid or willfull or stubborn or … well… imperfect.🤷
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…but that’s exactly what the Church Teaches… our Salvation Assurance is not knowing that in Christ we have Eternal Salvation but that Christ is our Eternal Salvation!

St. Peter asked that he be allowed to walk on water… Jesus Commanded him to Come… Mr. Ready-and-Willing-Master got out of the boat, stood on the surface of the water, began to walk, was fully inspired and secured, felt super good since he was the only one Jesus Gifted with supernatural Power… but it was over quickly enough as Peter failed to remain in Jesus–he allowed the temporal to trump the Spiritual and his failure caused him to fear for his life… Jesus never left him (Eternal Salvation); He quickly rescued him when Peter called out for His Assistance!

Our Assurance of Salvation remains hidden in Christ… it is that Hope (meeting with Christ) that the Church preaches, as the Apostles!

…yet, as you have observed, any moment that we place ourselves (humanity) above God we succumb, as Peter, to the desires and knowledge in our temporal existence–sin can cloud our judgment but our Salvation is still Secured in Christ… so, as He Commanded, we must persevere till the end abiding in Him so that He may Abide in us!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
In Revelation 3, Jesus told the church at Philadelphia that He was pleased with them and that He would keep them from the hour of temptation, among many other great promises.

But He also told them, “Hold fast what you have, so that no other will take your crown.” (Rev. 3:11)

The ancient commentator Tyconius says, “God willed to show the firmness of His promises, and not to permit a place for vain hope; lest perhaps someone would have flattered himself about God’s promises, and that the lazy and lukewarm would have remained so, and living under religion in any way whatsoever, would think themselves to be Abraham’s own son, him that God, swearing an oath, promised Abraham…”

St. Beatus of Liebana adds: 'But the crown cannot be taken away from those who persevere. And one who has been seen not to fail, but to persevere all the way up to the end – he will hold his crown forever."
 
Mintaka said:
In Revelation 3, Jesus told the church at Philadelphia that He was pleased with them and that He would keep them from the hour of temptation, among many other great promises.

But He also told them, “Hold fast what you have, so that no other will take your crown.” (Rev. 3:11)

St. Beatus of Liebana adds: 'But the crown cannot be taken away from those who persevere. And one who has been seen not to fail, but to persevere all the way up to the end – he will hold his crown forever."
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Excellent post !!!

I think U have encapsulated the heart of SA for us in the above. I wish Catholics would start standing up to Protestants on this topic, use ur quotes/ comments … and quit fighting to disprove SA !!

Like St. Paul taught, “finish the race” !!! Be eternal optimists & WINNERS … like Paul & Mary !!
 
R_C said:
In fact, if the great John the Baptist was unworthy to untie the Lord’s sandals,

That is not so with us. I invite you to read the writings of the saints. The greater their holiness in this world, the greater their awareness of how easily they were mistaken and offended God. In fact, the very St. Paul, aware of this, writes, full of humbleness:

If Saint Paul said this, can any of us dare to claim more?
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Well, we both know John was being modest, and most deferential to Christ …his kinship.

John too had SA, and would back down from no one …calling out Herodotus & his sins. John finished the race / persevered unto death.

Now, your quote from Paul … probably
peaks more to his struggles as Pharisee, BEFORE he was empowered by HS and learned to subdue the body. There are many more times where Paul spoke to his strengths (in Christ) … and his amazing victories. Paul was as certain of his determination to persevere as Peter !!!

And, Paul DIRECTED the 1st Century Christians to IMITATE him !! Now, if Paul were such a weak, Baby Christian, …would he of told them to follow his lead ?
 
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