Did Mary & Joseph have children?

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BornAgainRN

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Before answering this question. Please read this explanation to the very end. Also, please do not try to direct me to another Web site. I want to know what YOU think, & when you respond, please base your conclusion using Holy Scripture, NOT the beliefs of church leaders or the early church fathers. I say this, because since Holy Scripture is Inspired (God breathed), then Holy Scripture CAN’T be wrong, because we KNOW it is from God. Thank you in advance, & I look forward to your responses, & encourage you to carefully consider mine. In Christ, Steve.

Having been raised Catholic & having studied the Scriptures, I have come to the conclusion that ‘the Word of the Lord’ (the Bible) supports the belief that the ‘brothers & sisters’ of Jesus in Matthew 12:46-50 & Matthew 13:54-57 are Jesus’ half-brothers & sisters, & NOT referring to His disciples, cousins, step-brothers & step-sisters, or ‘spiritual’ brothers & sisters:

First, Matthew 13:54-57 gives us their names: James, Joses (Joseph), Simon, & Judas (Jude). They are clearly brothers, since they are part of a family unit, along with their father, ‘the carpenter’ (Joseph) & Mary, their mother.

Second, at the cross, Mary the wife of Alphaeus (aka: Clopas), who is the mother of James the Less & Joses (Joseph) are mentioned (Matthew 27:55-56; Mark 15:40; John 19:25-27). James is the son of Alphaeus (Matthew 10:3). However, James & Joseph are never paired in Scripture as ‘brothers’ of Simon & Judas (Jude). So, they are ‘not’ the ‘James & Joseph’ in Matthew 13:54-57.

Third, at the cross Salome (Mark 15:40) is the sister of Jesus’ mother (Mary) (John 19:25-27) & the mother of Zebedee’s sons (Matthew 27:55-56). Zebedee’s sons are James & John (Mark 10:35). However, James & John are never paired in Scripture as ‘brothers’ of Simon & Judas (Jude). So, this ‘James’ is ‘not’ the same ‘James’ in Matthew 13:54-57.

Third, since the ‘James’ who is the ‘son of Mary & Zebedee’ & since the ‘James & Joses (Joseph)’ who are the sons of ‘Mary & Alphaeus (Clopas)’ are NOT the same ‘James & Joses (Joseph)’ who are the brothers of Simon & Judas (Jude) in Matthew 13:54-57, then these ‘brothers’ in this verse are sons of Mary & Joseph, & are Jesus’ half-brothers.

Fourth, in Matthew 12:46-50, Jesus compares His ‘believing brothers’ by pointing to his disciples INSIDE, with His ‘non-believing brothers’ OUTSIDE (compare to John 7:3-5 & Psalm 69:8).

Fifth, Jesus makes a distinction between His brothers & His BELIEVING disciples (John 2:12).

Sixth, in Acts 1:13-14, Luke names the remaining 11 disciples along with Jesus’ brothers, who are with Mary & the women. Collectively, they are all ‘part’ of the ‘120 brethren’ at Pentecost.

Seventh, in 1 Corinthians 15:3-8, Jesus appears to Cephas (aka: Peter) & then to ‘The 12’ (Disciples)(v.5), then Jesus appears to James, then to all the apostles (v.7). ‘Apostles’ does not refer to ‘The 12,’ because ‘apostles’ simply mean ‘messengers’ or ‘sent ones,’ & can refer to people other than ‘The 12,’ such as Barnabas & Paul (Acts 14:14). Therefore, since this ‘James’ does not refer to ‘The 12,’ but ‘another James,’ then this ‘James’ is the brother of Joseph, Simon, & Judas (Jude) in Matthew 13:54-57.

Eighth, these ‘brothers’ in Matthew 13:54-57 aren’t Jesus’ cousins, because the Greek words for ‘cousins’ (‘synggenes’ & ‘anepsios’) used in Luke 1:36 & Colossians 4:10 are not used in Matthew 13:54-57, or anywhere else by Jesus to give us the impression that His ‘brothers’ in this verse are actually His cousins.

Ninth, the Greek word for ‘brothers’ & ‘sisters’ (adelphos & adelphe) can mean LITERAL blood brothers & sisters, such as James the BROTHER (adelphos) of John, & Martha & Mary the SISTERS (adelphe) of Lazarus.

Tenth, Paul names James as ‘the Lord’s brother’ (Galatians 1:19), who is with the other 2 ‘Pillars’ of the Church – Cephas (Peter) & John (Galatians 2:9). This ‘James’ is the brother of Jude (Jude 1:1), who wrote the Epistle of Jude. This ‘James’ went on to write the Epistle of James (James 1:1). This ‘James’ was the leader of the Jerusalem Church (Acts 15:13), but was not James, the brother of John, because he was already martyred (Acts 12:2). Therefore, this ‘James & Jude (Judas)’ are the same ‘James & Judas (Jude)’ in Matthew 13:54-57, who were also brothers of Joses (Joseph) & Simon, & half-brothers of Jesus.

So, using the Word of the Lord (the Bible), which cannot be wrong, & comparing it to church tradition (which ‘can’ be wrong), the most correct understanding of Jesus’ ‘brothers & sisters’ in Matthew 13:54-57 is that they were his LITERAL half-brothers & sisters. Therefore, Joseph kept Mary a virgin UNTIL she gave birth to Jesus (Matthew 1:24-25), & then had at least 6 children together (4 sons & at least 2 ‘unnamed’ daughters).
 
BornAgainRN said:
So, using the Word of the Lord (the Bible), which cannot be wrong, & comparing it to church tradition (which ‘can’ be wrong)…
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Sorry, I won’t play on your terms. We’re adults, we can disagree but if you’re going to tell me “you can’t use your basis for faith to argue, because I already reject it” then I’m going to treat you the same way:

Don’t use your personal interpretation of scripture to challenge me, because you can be (in this case, are) wrong.
 
BornAgainRN said:
Before answering this question. Please read this explanation to the very end. Also, please do not try to direct me to another Web site. I want to know what YOU think, & when you respond, please base your conclusion using Holy Scripture, NOT the beliefs of church leaders or the early church fathers. I say this, because since Holy Scripture is Inspired (God breathed), then Holy Scripture CAN’T be wrong, because we KNOW it is from God. Thank you in advance, & I look forward to your responses, & encourage you to carefully consider mine. In Christ, Steve.
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Did you join Catholic Answers just to post this?

What do I think? Contrary to your first statement, you never once asked a question. Therefore I have nothing to answer. But I do think you clearly know everything and are not looking for answers.
 
BertBlyleven said:
Did you join Catholic Answers just to post this?

What do I think? Contrary to your first statement, you never once asked a question. Therefore I have nothing to answer. But I do think you clearly know everything and are not looking for answers.
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I don’t know everything. But, what I do know, & what we can agree on, is that the Bible is the Word of God, which we can be assured that everything it says is true, which is why I believe from the Biblical languages that Jesus had half-brothers & sisters. What I am looking for is to see if the claims of Catholics are true when they say that they believe the Bible is the Word of the Lord. As a former Catholic, I was taught that. I wanted to see if that was true or not.
 
BornAgainRN said:
It is only ‘personal interpretation’ if I use the words ‘I think,’ ‘I believe,’ ‘this is my opinion,’ ‘this is the view of church,’ etc. I have not done this. All I have done is support the BIBLICAL view the Jesus had half-brothers & half-sisters by providing SCRIPTURE & what the words mean in the original Biblcally-Inspired languages. I WANT you to think, which means not basing YOUR faith on the ‘personal interpretations’ of others (including church leaders), but on what God has revealed to your through His Holy Inspired Word. If you want to base your faith on YOUR PERSONAL interpretation, fine. But, don’t say that I am ‘personally interpreting’ Scripture, because I am NOT doing that. I am understanding it from a ‘plain sense’ from Scripture - not on what other people ‘think’ it means.
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Do you follow baseball at all?
 
Welcome to CAF Steve! I hope you will find what you are looking for while you are here and I pray that God bless you immensely in your pursuit for truth.

You’re not likely to get too many responses (at least the ones I assume you are looking for) for many of the reasons already mentioned. However, this particular topic has been discussed many times at this forum. This is certainly not a new argument and I would suggest using the “search” function, especially within the “Ask An Apologist” subforum. You will find this specific topic, as well as many others, have been debated, discussed, examined, deliberated, and expounded upon over and over again. From these answers you should be able to discern the Catholic position on this, and probably many other subjects in which you are inquiring.

May God bless you my friend and again, Welcome to CAF!
 
BornAgainRN joined CAF today to proselytize. Started doing so shortly before noon today.

There is nothing wrong with that, but just be aware that He is a Born Again Christian by His own admission and as of the time I write this, has posted the about 15 posts, most of which are jumps into the middle of threads about Mary to posit the standard Evangelical and non-deomoninational arguments.

Jesus had brother’s and sisters and therefor Mary was not a perpetual virgin.

Mary is no more than than the human Mother of Jesus, worthy of respect for being the Mother of Jesus, but nothing more.

John who Jesus entrusted Mary to from the Cross was Jesus’ cousin.

Etc.

-Tim-
 
Thanks for the welcome. Yes, I am a new member, & I am new at this. Not intentionally meaning to try to purposely break forum rules. I have been on Christian forums in the past that don’t restrict linking to Christian sites, & don’t restrict posts on Sola Scriptura or using church beliefs. I guess I am still learning & kind of surprised that using Scripture to support my view would be considered ‘proselytizing.’ Thank you for the sub-forum link. 🙂 But, do the same ‘restrictions’ using Scripture apply there as well.

I guess my question based on Scripture - God’s Holy Word - is: am I wrong for believing that Mary & Joseph had children? As Christians, isn’t truth the thing we should be seeking above all else, in better understanding our relationship with Jesus Christ? Thanks for the feedback. God bless you in Jesus’ Name, Steve.
 
Boulder257 said:
You are correct. However, you are arguing against the very authority that compiled these books and determined them to be inspired. What did they use for the first 400 years of Christianity?
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It has long been a supposition that Joseph was a widower who had children from his first wife. That could possibly explain it.
 
***Moved this thread to Apologetics where it correctly belongs.
 
Welcome to CAF!

You don’t mess w/ The Blessed Mother in these here parts. 😉
 
BornAgainRN said:
Before answering this question. Please read this explanation to the very end. Also, please do not try to direct me to another Web site. I want to know what YOU think, & when you respond, please base your conclusion using Holy Scripture, NOT the beliefs of church leaders or the early church fathers. I say this, because since Holy Scripture is Inspired (God breathed), then Holy Scripture CAN’T be wrong, because we KNOW it is from God. Thank you in advance, & I look forward to your responses, & encourage you to carefully consider mine. In Christ, Steve.

Having been raised Catholic & having studied the Scriptures, I have come to the conclusion that ‘the Word of the Lord’ (the Bible) supports the belief that the ‘brothers & sisters’ of Jesus in Matthew 12:46-50 & Matthew 13:54-57 are Jesus’ half-brothers & sisters, & NOT referring to His disciples, cousins, step-brothers & step-sisters, or ‘spiritual’ brothers & sisters:

First, Matthew 13:54-57 gives us their names: James, Joses (Joseph), Simon, & Judas (Jude). They are clearly brothers, since they are part of a family unit, along with their father, ‘the carpenter’ (Joseph) & Mary, their mother.

Second, at the cross, Mary the wife of Alphaeus (aka: Clopas), who is the mother of James the Less & Joses (Joseph) are mentioned (Matthew 27:55-56; Mark 15:40; John 19:25-27). James is the son of Alphaeus (Matthew 10:3). However, James & Joseph are never paired in Scripture as ‘brothers’ of Simon & Judas (Jude). So, they are ‘not’ the ‘James & Joseph’ in Matthew 13:54-57.

Third, at the cross Salome (Mark 15:40) is the sister of Jesus’ mother (Mary) (John 19:25-27) & the mother of Zebedee’s sons (Matthew 27:55-56). Zebedee’s sons are James & John (Mark 10:35). However, James & John are never paired in Scripture as ‘brothers’ of Simon & Judas (Jude). So, this ‘James’ is ‘not’ the same ‘James’ in Matthew 13:54-57.

Third, since the ‘James’ who is the ‘son of Mary & Zebedee’ & since the ‘James & Joses (Joseph)’ who are the sons of ‘Mary & Alphaeus (Clopas)’ are NOT the same ‘James & Joses (Joseph)’ who are the brothers of Simon & Judas (Jude) in Matthew 13:54-57, then these ‘brothers’ in this verse are sons of Mary & Joseph, & are Jesus’ half-brothers.

Fourth, in Matthew 12:46-50, Jesus compares His ‘believing brothers’ by pointing to his disciples INSIDE, with His ‘non-believing brothers’ OUTSIDE (compare to John 7:3-5 & Psalm 69:8).

Fifth, Jesus makes a distinction between His brothers & His BELIEVING disciples (John 2:12).

Sixth, in Acts 1:13-14, Luke names the remaining 11 disciples along with Jesus’ brothers, who are with Mary & the women. Collectively, they are all ‘part’ of the ‘120 brethren’ at Pentecost.

Seventh, in 1 Corinthians 15:3-8, Jesus appears to Cephas (aka: Peter) & then to ‘The 12’ (Disciples)(v.5), then Jesus appears to James, then to all the apostles (v.7). ‘Apostles’ does not refer to ‘The 12,’ because ‘apostles’ simply mean ‘messengers’ or ‘sent ones,’ & can refer to people other than ‘The 12,’ such as Barnabas & Paul (Acts 14:14). Therefore, since this ‘James’ does not refer to ‘The 12,’ but ‘another James,’ then this ‘James’ is the brother of Joseph, Simon, & Judas (Jude) in Matthew 13:54-57.

Eighth, these ‘brothers’ in Matthew 13:54-57 aren’t Jesus’ cousins, because the Greek words for ‘cousins’ (‘synggenes’ & ‘anepsios’) used in Luke 1:36 & Colossians 4:10 are not used in Matthew 13:54-57, or anywhere else by Jesus to give us the impression that His ‘brothers’ in this verse are actually His cousins.

Ninth, the Greek word for ‘brothers’ & ‘sisters’ (adelphos & adelphe) can mean LITERAL blood brothers & sisters, such as James the BROTHER (adelphos) of John, & Martha & Mary the SISTERS (adelphe) of Lazarus.

Tenth, Paul names James as ‘the Lord’s brother’ (Galatians 1:19), who is with the other 2 ‘Pillars’ of the Church – Cephas (Peter) & John (Galatians 2:9). This ‘James’ is the brother of Jude (Jude 1:1), who wrote the Epistle of Jude. This ‘James’ went on to write the Epistle of James (James 1:1). This ‘James’ was the leader of the Jerusalem Church (Acts 15:13), but was not James, the brother of John, because he was already martyred (Acts 12:2). Therefore, this ‘James & Jude (Judas)’ are the same ‘James & Judas (Jude)’ in Matthew 13:54-57, who were also brothers of Joses (Joseph) & Simon, & half-brothers of Jesus.

So, using the Word of the Lord (the Bible), which cannot be wrong, & comparing it to church tradition (which ‘can’ be wrong), the most correct understanding of Jesus’ ‘brothers & sisters’ in Matthew 13:54-57 is that they were his LITERAL half-brothers & sisters. Therefore, Joseph kept Mary a virgin UNTIL she gave birth to Jesus (Matthew 1:24-25), & then had at least 6 children together (4 sons & at least 2 ‘unnamed’ daughters).
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This topic has been discussed many times and the myth Mary had other children. Show me one place in scripture where it states explicitly Mary gave birth to a total of six children?
 
To answer your original post (flawed as its premises are), the proof that Mary had no other children is the fact that after the crucifixion she stayed the rest of her life in the house of an unrelated male. Had she had other children this would not, could not have happened.
 
BornAgainRN
What verse names anyone, other then the Lord Jesus, as the child of Mary?
 
Eleventh,
So when Mary Magdalene sees the risen Jesus and he instructs her
"But go to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
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What does she do?
Mary of Magdala went and announced to the disciples, “I have seen the Lord,” and what he told her.
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BornAgainRN said:
Before answering this question. Please read this explanation to the very end. Also, please do not try to direct me to another Web site. I want to know what YOU think, & when you respond, please base your conclusion using Holy Scripture, NOT the beliefs of church leaders or the early church fathers. I say this, because since Holy Scripture is Inspired (God breathed), then Holy Scripture CAN’T be wrong, because we KNOW it is from God. Thank you in advance, & I look forward to your responses, & encourage you to carefully consider mine. In Christ, Steve.
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Wait a minute, lemmie get this straight.
You ask a question and then demand an answer within the perameters YOU set?
When it comes to the Bible and Church history there are no quick, easy, or simple answers. In order to understand this or any other question one MUST take into consideration all the factors you insist be left out. It’s like asking us to explain the US Constitution without taking into consideration the founding fathers, the historical and political climate at the time. Makes no sense. Catholics do not accept the concept of Sola Scriptura. No question on any subject can be answered on the foundation of a philosophy the Church rejects.
History is a tough instructor because it never pans out the we want it to. Thats why I’m not a Baptist anymore. I think most honest historians, Catholic or otherwise agree that the concept of SS evolved over time to what it is today. Obviously the Reformers would not be in agreement with the average American fundamentalist. They were men of a different age reacting many times to the events going on around them.
Sola Scriptura is refuted in the most simplist of ways:
Open your phone book.
Count the number of denominations in your metropolitan area.
Case closed.
 
tabycat said:
BornAgainRN
What verse names anyone, other then the Lord Jesus, as the child of Mary?
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If you read my original post, Jesus compares His disciples (His ‘believing’ brothers & sisters & mother) on the INSIDE, to His mother, Mary, & His ‘unbelieving’ brothers on the OUTSIDE (Matthew 12:46-50; see also John 7:3-5 & Psalm 69:8, which is a Messianic prophecy of not only Who the Messiah would be, but also Who His mother would be, which states she would have CHILDREN -plural). Also, Matthew 13:54-57 names Jesus’ half-brothers as James, Joseph (named after Mary’s husband, Joseph), Simon, & Judas (Jude), & at least 2 ‘unnamed’ half-sisters. If you reread my original post & compare them ‘TO’ the Scripture verses provided, & write out a ‘family tree’ of Jesus, you’ll find who all the "James’, Joseph’s, & Mary’s actually are. Give it a try! Hope that answered your question. 🙂 God bless you in Jesus’ Name, Steve.
 
BornAgainRN said:
when you respond, please base your conclusion using Holy Scripture
…
So, using the Word of the Lord (the Bible), which cannot be wrong, & comparing it to church tradition (which ‘can’ be wrong), the most correct understanding of Jesus’ ‘brothers & sisters’ in Matthew 13:54-57 is that they were his LITERAL half-brothers & sisters. Therefore, Joseph kept Mary a virgin UNTIL she gave birth to Jesus (Matthew 1:24-25), & then had at least 6 children together (4 sons & at least 2 ‘unnamed’ daughters).
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As you yourself point out, there are only four brethren of Jesus named in the Gospels: **Matthew 13:55 ** “Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas?”

**Mark 6:2-3 ** - “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? Are not His sisters here with us?”

Let’s begin with James. There are two men named James among the disciples. One, of course, is the brother of John and the son of Zebedee. This cannot be him then. So, this is the other James, called in Scripture James the less: Mark 15:40: “There were also women looking on afar off: among whom were Mary Magdalene, and ** Mary the mother of James the less, and of Joseph,** and Salome.” (emphasis added)
So James is indeed the son of a woman named Mary. Not only that, but Joseph is his brother. That’s two of the four, right? Then, in Matthew, reciting the names of the twelve: Matt 10:3: “…'James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddeus.” (emphasis added)
This too is talking of James the less, as the other James, son of Zebedee, is spoken of in the previous verse. It is NOT a trick or really that hard! * Alphaeus* is this James’ father, not Joseph, the husband of Mary, mother of the Lord.

Now go to John also speaking of those witnessing the Crucifixion: John 19:25: “Now there stood by the cross of Jesus His mother (Mary) and His mothers sister, *** Mary the wife of Cleophas***, and * Mary Magdalene*.” (emphasis added)
Look up John 19:25 at blueletterbible.org/ and click the ‘C’ icon (for the Strong’s Concordance), then click the Strong’s number for the name Cleophas. It comes up “father of James the less, the husband of Mary the sister of the mother of Jesus.”

Did you get that? That Mary, who was the mother of James the less, and of Joseph, from Mark 15:40, is the wife of Cleophas, the father of James the less, and she is called the ‘sister’ of Our Lord’s mother - Mary!

So, two of the four ‘brothers’ have been identified as the children of parents other than Joseph and the Virgin Mary. Of the brothers named, that still leaves Jude and Simon. Next, Jude: Acts 1:13 ** "…James, the son of Alphaeus , and Simon Zelo’tes, and ** Jude the brother of James…" (emphasis added)
There goes Jude out of the mix! *** Matter of fact, Jude says the same in his own epistle: Jude 1:1 "Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ *** and brother of James…" (emphasis added)
Lastly, Simon. Simon, called the Zealot, is identified as coming from Cana, not Nazareth as were Joseph, Mary and the Christ! Luke 6:15 "and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and ** Simon who was called the Zealot," (emphasis added)

Mark 3:18 “Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and ** Simon the Cananaean**…” (emphasis added)

Matt 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene. (emphasis added)
Simon is a Cananean, while Jesus is a Nazarene!

We see that Simon the Zealot being from Cana, and a ‘brethren’ or ‘brother’ of the Christ. Let’s go to John’s Gospel, chapter 2. Mary and Our Lord are invited to a wedding there! So, close business associates, maybe, of Joseph from the carpentry trade, or more likely - family, or brethren, relatives, are having this wedding! Like, maybe the Holy Family had actual kinfolk in Cana, be they cousins, in-laws, nephews, aunts, uncles, all of which are routinely called ‘brethren’!

Remember what Mary said to the servants? She told them to ‘Do as He says.’

Think about that a second? What would give this humble woman from Nazareth any position to so speak to the servants of someone else in an entirely different town, at their wedding? The simplest and most easily understood answer would be – she is a family relation to those giving the wedding feast…

So Simon is from Cana, and a ‘brother’ of the Lord! He’s not a sibling though, but very likely related. And James, Joseph and Jude all have the same father and mother, and it is not Joseph and the Virgin Mary, but their mother is named Mary and called the sister of Jesus’ mother Mary. Even here ‘sister’ may not mean blood sibling, or we have two sisters with the same name in the same family.
 
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