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trumpet152
Guest
Obviously, she was sinless. But was she aware of it?
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shannin
Guest
She most likely knew that she was sinless but was also full of humility. She was aware of all the sin and evil in the world and knew that her Son must someday go to the cross for those sins.
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MrS
Guest
Personally, I think she was the greatest theologian ever… she learned about God for 33 years… from God Himself…
I also think that when Gabriel addressed her as “Full of Grace”, that she knew what that meant.
I also think that when Gabriel addressed her as “Full of Grace”, that she knew what that meant.
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RyanL
Guest
That’s certainly possible, though it’s not evidenced in the text. If anything, that was the earliest possible point at which she became aware of it (see: “troubling”).
Perhaps, though, it was as though she was born immune to poison - if you didn’t know, you would still not drink the kool-ade. So…perhaps she didn’t know that she was sinless, but chose to live a sinless life out of humble obedience.
I’m not aware of where the Church has taught anything about this, so we’ll likely be stuck wandering around in our own suppositions. That said, I’m curious as to what other folks think.
God Bless,
RyanL
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MrS
Guest
First, I think every serious young Jewish knew the scriptures… and understood the prophecies.
Second, I think she knew when she gave her Fiat… her acceptance of the awesome responsibility of becoming the Mother of God.,
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Eileen_T
Guest
One of the efects of sin is a dulling of the intellect. Since Mary weas without sin her intellect must has been awesome.
After the Archangel Gabriel appeared to her she must have pondered on his words and it must have occurred to her that, as the ‘arc of the new covenant’, she was without sin.
I imagine that, in her humility, she was filled with Awe at the greatness of Almighty God who had intervened to fill her with grace.
After the Archangel Gabriel appeared to her she must have pondered on his words and it must have occurred to her that, as the ‘arc of the new covenant’, she was without sin.
I imagine that, in her humility, she was filled with Awe at the greatness of Almighty God who had intervened to fill her with grace.
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Della
Guest
I’ve often thought that when Mary hurried to help her aging cousin Elizabeth with her needs during her pregnancy she also wished to talk to her older relation and gain her wisdom. A truly humble person, like Mary, would think along those lines.
So, when Elizabeth confirmed what Mary knew–that she was the Mother of the Lord, it all came home to her in a profound way, which is why she declared, “The Lord has done great things for me!”
This expression gets easily passed over when we recite it, but here Mary was saying that her greatest hope and belief was confirmed, which in her great humility she had accepted simply by faith. Now, it was utterly real to her–her place in God’s plan a surety and the wonder of all wonders within her heart and for the world.
So, when Elizabeth confirmed what Mary knew–that she was the Mother of the Lord, it all came home to her in a profound way, which is why she declared, “The Lord has done great things for me!”
This expression gets easily passed over when we recite it, but here Mary was saying that her greatest hope and belief was confirmed, which in her great humility she had accepted simply by faith. Now, it was utterly real to her–her place in God’s plan a surety and the wonder of all wonders within her heart and for the world.
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
If Mary was the greatest theologian, why did she not write a gospel or systematic theology?
I don’t think she believed herself to be sinless in the birth passages because she refers to God as her saviour and only those of us who have sin in the present tense need a saviour in the present tense.
I think she was simply an obedient Jewish woman and that she was aware that she was obeying God.
I do not think it would be neccessary for her to know that she was sinless, unless that state would lead to pride.
I don’t think she believed herself to be sinless in the birth passages because she refers to God as her saviour and only those of us who have sin in the present tense need a saviour in the present tense.
I think she was simply an obedient Jewish woman and that she was aware that she was obeying God.
I do not think it would be neccessary for her to know that she was sinless, unless that state would lead to pride.
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RyanL
Guest
Daniel Marsh:
God Bless,
RyanL
Is there a mandate from God that all systematic theologians write? This is an argument from silence, which is really no argument at all.
Do we really need to recount Newman’s ‘pit’ for you? You’ve been around long enough to know better…
Could you please explain how you would place “simply” and “mother of God” together in a sentence with a straight face?
This is a non-sequitor, but I would agree that it wouldn’t be necessary that she know her ontological state.
God Bless,
RyanL
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Semper_Fi_1
Guest
Daniel Marsh:
Would Adam or Eve need God even though they were created sinless? Did Adam and Eve have God before they sinned?
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MrS
Guest
Daniel Marsh:
No, we all need a Savior… no exceptions. However, Mary was saved totally before her conception. Had she been born with original sin, then Jesus too would have had to “inherit” original sin from His Mother, by any understanding - and the Jews must have known this.
Pride, being a sin, would not have been a possibility with the totally sinless being which Mary was and is. She is truly the exception to sinful mankind.
Her “job” was to give us the Gospel… literally!! And [1] her heart too a sword will pierce, and [2] She kept all these things and pondered them in her heart
No, we all need a Savior… no exceptions. However, Mary was saved totally before her conception. Had she been born with original sin, then Jesus too would have had to “inherit” original sin from His Mother, by any understanding - and the Jews must have known this.
Pride, being a sin, would not have been a possibility with the totally sinless being which Mary was and is. She is truly the exception to sinful mankind.
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RyanL
Guest
Daniel Marsh:
God Bless,
RyanL
On second thought…how do you think the Gospel writers knew any of the stories about Jesus’ early life (including before He was conceived), or the thoughts that went on in Mary’s head (“pondered in her heart”, etc.)? I’d say not an insignificant amount of Luke comes straight from Mary; not to mention, of course, the Christ Himself.
God Bless,
RyanL
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trumpet152
Guest
Wow. Interesting thought. I wonder how much of an influence she had on the writing of the gospels…
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MrS
Guest
Perhaps she at least proof-read!
and gave her Impri-mom-ture
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CindyGia
Guest
YES! YES! That’s exactly correct I believe.
The reason why Mary was “troubled” when the Angel Gabriel “Hailed” Her, is because She was full of humility and thought Herself a “lowly worm” (“City of God” by Mary of Agreda) that She was at first “troubled” God would use such a “lowly worm” to bring forth the Messiah. Mary is so full of God’s grace that Her humilty is greater than all the saints who ever lived…that is why Mary is Queen of angels and saints.
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
Hi RyanL and others, this whole thread is non-sequitor, so what.
Or Luke could have asked, Jesus’s cousins, Joseph, or any one else who was around. Then there is the possible Q document that could have recorded the accounts of his birth or the oral traditon that was told through the church history or as you say from Mary. Or like Genesis creation accounts the story could have been given to him by revelation. But, Luke does say that he examined the history. Thus asked questions of many who were involved like Elizabeth, Mary, Joseph ( if he was still around ), bothers or cousins, sisters or whatever, and so on.
I think the key, is the words “she pondered or hid” such and such in her “heart” she is Mary.
Or Luke could have asked, Jesus’s cousins, Joseph, or any one else who was around. Then there is the possible Q document that could have recorded the accounts of his birth or the oral traditon that was told through the church history or as you say from Mary. Or like Genesis creation accounts the story could have been given to him by revelation. But, Luke does say that he examined the history. Thus asked questions of many who were involved like Elizabeth, Mary, Joseph ( if he was still around ), bothers or cousins, sisters or whatever, and so on.
I think the key, is the words “she pondered or hid” such and such in her “heart” she is Mary.
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MrS
Guest
Daniel Marsh:
Joseph died before the ministery of the Lord began.
how do we know…you say?
In Jewish tradition, the “career” of a Rabbi began after the age of 30 (and I believe it ended in the mid-50s)
Anyway, a king cannot be king if his father is still alive. When Jesus declared kingship, the Jews would have scoffed if Joseph had been still alive. Jesus would have been claiming something that was not possible.
Joseph had no opportunity to talk to the Gospel writtters in this life.
Since Elizabeth was quite elderly when she conceived, it is very unlikely she was around for her son’s ministry.
Cousins could have said " Yeh, I heard about that…" but no more than that.
The point is that Mary had to provide the info… There was no one else around when Gabriel appeared to her…no one… unless some one was hiding in the marsh.
Joseph died before the ministery of the Lord began.
how do we know…you say?
In Jewish tradition, the “career” of a Rabbi began after the age of 30 (and I believe it ended in the mid-50s)
Anyway, a king cannot be king if his father is still alive. When Jesus declared kingship, the Jews would have scoffed if Joseph had been still alive. Jesus would have been claiming something that was not possible.
Joseph had no opportunity to talk to the Gospel writtters in this life.
Since Elizabeth was quite elderly when she conceived, it is very unlikely she was around for her son’s ministry.
Cousins could have said " Yeh, I heard about that…" but no more than that.
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