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Godfollower
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AthenaC
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She knew, but I don’t think she knew exactly what that would mean. So she watched Jesus’s life unfold the way any mother watches her child’s life unfold.
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Todd_Easton
Guest
St. Joseph knew. (Matthew 1:21.) Difficult to imagine that he would keep this wonderful info from his wife.
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PJM
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Yes!
Here’s the Proof!Luke 1 :26-35"And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God into a city of Galilee, called Nazareth, To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary. And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.Who having heard, was troubled at his saying, and thought with herself what manner of salutation this should be. [And the angel said to her: ***Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace with God. * Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and shalt bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name Jesus. of his kingdom there shall be no end. And Mary said to the angel: How shall this be done, because I know not man?[MEANS I’ma VIRGIN] [35] And the angel answering, said to her:God] The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the most High shall overshadow thee. And therefore also the Holy which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
AND CHECK OUT Mary’s response:
Lk. 1:46-55
“***And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord. And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. Because he hath regarded the humility of his handmaid; for behold from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed. Because he that is mighty, hath done great things to me; and holy is his name. And his mercy is from generation unto generations, to them that fear him”. ***
"He hath shewed might in his arm: he hath scattered the proud in the conceit of their heart. He hath put down the mighty from their seat, and hath exalted the humble. He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away. He hath received Israel his servant, being mindful of his mercy: As he spoke to our fathers, to Abraham and to his seed for ever"
AMEN:thumbsup:
:getholy:
God Bless and WELCOME to the FORUM!,
pat /PJM here on this forum
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AthenaC
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Well, you never know. Some men are the strong, silent type.
Plus, I can think of many times where a friend has mentioned something, assuming I know already, and then I look at my husband in confusion and he says, “What? I know I told you this!” Sometimes men think they tell their wives things but they don’t.
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LoyalViews
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Oh yes! Of course Our Lady knew! What I cannot comprehend is what her joy must have been. How happy would you be if you were told you were going to be the Mother of the Saviour of the World, Mother of the second Person of the Trinity, the Mother of God?
I don’t imagine you’d say “okay now what?”
I don’t imagine you’d say “okay now what?”
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Godfollower
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“Mary, congratulations! Your Son has saved humanity through His heroic sacrifice, ending the dominion of original sin, redeeming the entire human race, and opening the gates of Heaven! Now what?”Oh yes! Of course Our Lady knew! What I cannot comprehend is what her joy must have been. How happy would you be if you were told you were going to be the Mother of the Saviour of the World, Mother of the second Person of the Trinity, the Mother of God?
I don’t imagine you’d say “okay now what?”
“I’m going to Disney World!”
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Bballer32
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YESSSSS
You could also say:
“I’m going to Heaven body and soul!!! Wooohoooo! Eternal Happiness!”
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Evan
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I can agree with the bolded part. Mary was Jewish and had no concept of the Savior being God. That is the great surprise that was revealed by Jesus in his ministry.**Oh yes! Of course Our Lady knew! What I cannot comprehend is what her joy must have been. How happy would you be if you were told you were going to be the Mother of the Saviour of the World, **Mother of the second Person of the Trinity, the Mother of God?
I don’t imagine you’d say “okay now what?”
She did not know she was Mother of God when he was a child. Perhaps by his death, she did.
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Ignatius
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Didn’t the Angel Gabriel tell her exactly that?
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tafan
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Read the bible passages quoted above and you simply cannot come to that conclusion. She knew Jesus was the savior, she knew he was the Son of God, and she understood what that meant. It is very clear in the bible.
Did she know all of the details of his public ministry and passion and resurection? probably not, so you are partially right about how she watched his life unfold. But she knew as lot. She was told, St Joseph was told, and Zachariah/Elizabeth were also told quite a bit. It is inconcievable that they did not share the information among themselves.
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Evan
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Where do you come to that conclusion.
I assume by Son of God you are referring to Jesus being God, 2nd person of the trinity.
{not one of the ‘sons of God’ referred to in Gn 6, Job 1, 2, 38, Ps 89}
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tafan
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Yes, I am referring to being God,the 2ndperson of the trinity. The Jews did not understand the trinity, but the Gospels make it very clear that they equated the term “Son of God” with being God. Mary knew that her son was the incarnate God.
And the angel told her explicitly “He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the most High; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of David his father; and he shall reign in the house of Jacob for ever”. And Elizabeth greeted her as the mother of her Lord, and Mary certainly accepted her greeting. And Zachary knew that his son woudl “go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways”. And Joseph was told that Christ would forgive the people their sins (which could only refer to God to a ancient Jew).
It is impossible to accept all of the biblical details of the birth of Christ, while understanding Jewish faith at that time, and conlude anything other than Mary knew that Jesus was God.
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Evan
Guest
You make a good argument.
However (you knew that was coming), I find it works better in hindsight. After Mary knew Jesus was God (maybe at some time in his public ministry) she may have understood those earlier references as Godly titles.
Son of the Most High… could be anyone. We are all sons of God
Mother of her Lord… could be confusing, Lord could just refer to the heir to the Davidic throne
Don’t know if Zach told Mary of this, how he phrased it, etc
Forgive sins? Could be he would be a conduit of God’s grace (like a Jewish priest) that brings the forgiveness of sins rather than forgiving in his own name.
So, I still hold to the idea that Mary held these things in her heart and reflected on what they could mean, RATHER than knowing what they meant from day 1.
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tafan
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Your “however”, is spoken from an apparent ignorance of Jewish religion and tradition at the time of Christ… Read the Gospels, the following become very apparent:
The jews certainly equated both the title “Son of God” and the ability to forgive sins with God. Especially the second, they believed that only God could forgive sins. Jewish priests had no authority to forgive sins. They never assumed to speak for God on that matter. When Jesus told people their sins were forgiven, the Jewish leaders were scandalized. They knew exactly what that meant.
Mary knew that Jesus was God incarnate.
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Blue_Horizon
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Tafan
I believe Evan’s view is correct.
Can you provide a quote/source for your contrary knowledge regarding Jewish religion and tradition at the time of Christ?
Yes, Jesus’s closest followers witnessed Jesus forgiving sins (I am not sure Mary did) and many other examples of “high” Christological behaviour … yet still could not make the leap to Jesus’s hypostatic union and divinity. That would demand acceptance of polytheism and a God who is not pure spirit - both anathema to devoutl Jews. No wonder the disciples were extremely bewildered despite the Transfiguration.
We have to be very careful not to read back our own high Christological concepts back into Gospel words or phrases that could not possibly have meant the same thing (or even be understood) to Jesus’s followers at that time in history. Many Biblical scholars would hold that it took the Resurrection to provide even the possibility of them holding the “divine concepts”, that we take for granted today. (Without the Resurrection all such divine titles for Jesus would smack of polytheism and be impossible for a devout Jew).
As others have noted the title “Saviour” seems to be an early Christian title (i.e. post Resurrection.) and not a popular pre-Resurrection one ( if it was one it does not by itself seem to suggest divinity).
I think the word you may be looking for is Messiah.
If so, then yes I would say Mary would have believed Jesus was God’s Messiah - but that still did not imply divinity. That belief would have been sorely tested at his crucifixion - and would have been elevated to include divinity with the Resurrection.
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Ignatius
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Yes, the Angel Gabriel told her.
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tafan
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Well, that is simple, try Mark chapter 2, verse 7. Only God can forgive sins, that was the Jewish view, it is clear from reading the new testament.
When the angel said Jesus would deliver all men from their sins, he said that Jesus was God.
This is almost funny. I can show with this thread the wording in our modern times is less meaningful than it was at the time of Christ.
Today, we might think that way because of the institution of the sacraments, but not at the time of the incarnation, as Mark 2:7 inarguably demonstrates.
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Blue_Horizon
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Tafan
You are not really facing the question head on.
You previously opined that “The Jews certainly equated…the title “Son of God” … with God” *. You suggested Evan spoke in apparent ignorance of Jewish religion and tradition at the time of Christ when he disagreed with this statement.
I asked you to provide a reference/source/quote from a scholar/exegete or even a respected NT commentator whom you may have sourced on such expert understanding of Jewish religion/tradition at the time of Christ.
You will have to forgive us for not accepting your sweeping and somewhat definitive statement that the title “son of god” would have immediately been understood by the average Jew of Jesus’s time to identify him as equal with the God of Genesis. Particularly as libraries have been generated by Biblical scholars on this very point. This is a very complex topic that even highly experienced scholars of this period are very loathe to pontificate on.
Are you able to so provide?*
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