Did Mary sin?

[LilyM]

So did Mary not need Jesus as her Savior since only sinners need a Savior?

For the record, I do believe Mary is blessed among women. What a blessing in the way God chose to use her.

Luke 1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

Mary needed a saviour indeed - and knew she had been saved. The difference is He saved her from sin by PREVENTING it, rather than saving her by letting her sin and then forgiving and atoning for it with His blood, as He does with us.

Would a mother whose neighbour prevented her child from falling down a cliff by snatching it away from the edge not say that neighbour had ‘saved’ her child? Or would she only say that if the neighbour went down the cliff and rescued the child AFTER it had fallen?

 

[jmcrae]

So did Mary not need Jesus as her Savior since only sinners need a Savior?

It would be just as absurd to say that Abraham, Moses, or David didn’t need for Jesus to die on the Cross, because they became righteous beforehand, because of their faith in God.

Just as Abraham, Moses, and David were “pre-saved” so to speak (since they died in friendship with God long before Jesus ever died on the Cross), so was Mary.

But Mary was also even more unique, in that she had no personal sins to repent of, since not only was she saved from her sins, she was actually saved from sinning. But she was saved in exactly the same way that Abraham, Moses, and David were - by the blood of Jesus Christ on the Cross being applied “retroactively” so to speak, by virtue of its connection to Eternity (which by the way is also how you and I get saved; we can’t go back in time to the Cross, so the Cross comes forward in time to us, to wash our sins away.)

Imagine three people walking along - Mary, Jesus, and me. I fall headlong into a pit (let’s call it “the pit of sin”), and Jesus pulls me out and brushes off my clothes - He saves me from the pit of sin by pulling me out.

Then, He turns to Mary, and He says, "Watch out for the Pit of Sin, Mary! and pulls her away from it before she has the chance to fall in. She is saved by being warned of it, and pulled away from it, so that she never falls into it, in the first place.

Both Mary and I are saved by the same Jesus - I am saved by being pulled out of the pit, and Mary is saved by being prevented from falling into it, in the first place.

Luke 1:42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

We have a very beautiful prayer that uses that line of Scripture in it - perhaps you’ve heard of it.

 

[Saved_by_Grace]

Okay, I see how you all come up with a sinless Mary.

So does that mean there can be others who are sinless too? He could save me from sinning too while using your quicksand analogy. Why just Mary?

My question still rests in the Bible. I put a few verses and will list others only if you really want me too, but it is crystal clear that ALL have sinned.

Thanks again!

 

[brkn1]

Mary needed a saviour indeed - and knew she had been saved. The difference is He saved her from sin by PREVENTING it, rather than saving her by letting her sin and then forgiving and atoning for it with His blood, as He does with us.

Would a mother whose neighbour prevented her child from falling down a cliff by snatching it away from the edge not say that neighbour had ‘saved’ her child? Or would she only say that if the neighbour went down the cliff and rescued the child AFTER it had fallen?

God could have prevented all humans from sinning (including Adam and Eve) by your logic. That would mean that there was “another way” that man could be saved, which is not supported by Scripture. This explanation is human invention and reasonning.

 

[LilyM]

Okay, I see how you all come up with a sinless Mary.

So does that mean there can be others who are sinless too? He could save me from sinning too while using your quicksand analogy. Why just Mary?

My question still rests in the Bible. I put a few verses and will list others only if you really want me too, but it is crystal clear that ALL have sinned.

Thanks again!

Well, you having already been born, and God tending not to perform miracles that necessitate turning back time itself, while possible it’s highly unlikely.

Potentially He could do for others as well, He can do all things after all. As to why He doesn’t or hasn’t (that we know of at least) - well, for one we actually CAN’T know that He hasn’t, can we? :ehh:

For another, it’s one of those mysteries about which we need to ask Him - just like asking why He doesn’t cure ALL disease or eliminate ALL suffering when we know for certain that He can do so.

I suspect it has just a little something to do with Mary’s absolutely unique and unrepeatable role in salvation history as being the Mother of God.

As for ‘another way’ - what do you mean? God isn’t bound to follow any rule whatsoever in regards salvation, any more than a father who sets a curfew for a child is bound to either go to bed at the same time himself, or apply the same curfew to all his children, or never to give a child permission to stay up later.

 

[jmcrae]

Okay, I see how you all come up with a sinless Mary.

So does that mean there can be others who are sinless too? He could save me from sinning too while using your quicksand analogy.

Mary is the only one.

Why just Mary?

Because Mary had a very special role to play in the story of Salvation. He did not make her sinless for her own sake, or so that she could boast, but rather, because it was fitting for the Word of God to enter into the world by means of a spotless and pure “Ark of the New Covenant”.

My question still rests in the Bible. I put a few verses and will list others only if you really want me too, but it is crystal clear that ALL have sinned.

If we take the “all men have sinned” hyper-literally, then how do we exempt Jesus? Since He is even more obviously a man than Mary is.

 

[jmcrae]

God could have prevented all humans from sinning (including Adam and Eve) by your logic.

Yes, He could have, if He had also chosen some different way to give grace to the world, other than the Cross. He obviously didn’t, though; He let the events play out as they did so as to set the stage for the Cross.

That would mean that there was “another way” that man could be saved, which is not supported by Scripture.

Not really, since Mary’s sinlessness comes from the grace of Christ on the Cross, the same as you and me.

 

[Luke65]

Just as Abraham, Moses, and David were “pre-saved” so to speak (since they died in friendship with God long before Jesus ever died on the Cross), so was Mary.

But Mary was also even more unique…

I would add that Enoch and Elijah were unique too. They got into Heaven, where nothing impure may enter, obviously because God retroactively applied Christ’s salvific grace to them - as He did for Mary, when she was conceived, so that His Son would enter the world through a pure “woman”, who conceived Him by the Holy Spirit.

 

[jmcrae]

I would add that Enoch and Elijah were unique too. They got into Heaven, where nothing impure may enter, obviously because God retroactively applied Christ’s salvific grace to them - as He did for Mary, when she was conceived, so that His Son would enter the world through a pure “woman”, who conceived Him by the Holy Spirit.

That’s an excellent point!

 

[Hajnalcsillag]

I went through every major English translation of the Bible, and here they are. This is Luke 1:28, which is the angel’s greeting to Mary.

Today’s New International Version
The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

New International Version - UK
The angel went to her and said, Greetings, you who are highly favoured! The Lord is with you.

Worldwide English
The angel went into the house and said to her, `Be happy! God has blessed you more than other women. The Lord is with you!’

Wycliffe New Testament
And the angel entered to her, and said, Hail, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed be thou among women.

New International Reader’s Version
The angel greeted her and said, “The Lord has given you special favor. He is with you.”

Holman Christian Standard Bible
And [the angel] came to her and said, “Rejoice, favored woman! The Lord is with you.”

Darby Translation
And the angel came in to her, and said, Hail, [thou] favoured one! the Lord [is] with thee: [blessed art thou amongst women].

Young’s Literal Translation
And the messenger having come in unto her, said, `Hail, favoured one, the Lord [is] with thee; blessed [art] thou among women;’

American Standard Version
And he came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee.

21st Century King James Version
And the angel came in unto her and said, “Hail, thou that art highly favored, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou among women.”

New Century Version
The angel came to her and said, “Greetings! The Lord has blessed you and is with you.”

New King James Version
And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”

Contemporary English Version
The angel greeted Mary and said, “You are truly blessed! The Lord is with you.”

English Standard Version
And he came to her and said, “Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!”

King James Version
And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

New Living Translation
Gabriel appeared to her and said, “Greetings, favored woman! The Lord is with you!"

The Message
Upon entering, Gabriel greeted her:

Good morning!
You’re beautiful with God’s beauty,
Beautiful inside and out!
God be with you.

New American Standard Bible
And coming in, he said to her, “Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you.”

New International Version
The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

That Mary was favored among women is not in dispute. That she was chosen to bear the Messiah is not in dispute. The question is, exactly how far did the “favored” or “highly favored” extend in terms of original sin?

And the real question is, does it really matter? Does salvation depend on whether or not Mary was born with original sin? Does our ability to evangelize and expose others to the Gospel rely on whether Mary was born with original sin?

 

[brkn1]

Yes, He could have, if He had also chosen some different way to give grace to the world, other than the Cross. He obviously didn’t, though; He let the events play out as they did so as to set the stage for the Cross.

Not really, since Mary’s sinlessness comes from the grace of Christ on the Cross, the same as you and me.

“Another way” is referring to “being saved by prevention” as opposed to the biblical Jesus’ attoning for our inherited sin.
There is a huge difference between the two situations.

God is said in Scripture to will that all be saved.
That would make the “prevent” method to be the best method, if it were truly available. The cross would also be unnecessary, if “prevent” was a valid option.

 

[jmcrae]

And the real question is, does it really matter? Does salvation depend on whether or not Mary was born with original sin? Does our ability to evangelize and expose others to the Gospel rely on whether Mary was born with original sin?

There are many things we could live without, but God chooses to give them to us anyway - God isn’t a minimalist, or a stingy giver.

God has revealed to us that Mary is without Original Sin. If we doubt Him in this, then what else might we doubt Him in? If we pick and choose among the things that God reveals to us, to choose only those things that “make sense” or “seem essential” then, pretty soon, we’ll run out of things to believe in. :hammering:

But if we joyfully accept on faith everything that He gives us, then we will only strengthen our faith and our love for Him. :flowers:

 

[jmcrae]

“Another way” is referring to “being saved by prevention” as opposed to the biblical Jesus’ attoning for our inherited sin.
There is a huge difference between the two situations.

God is said in Scripture to will that all be saved.
That would make the “prevent” method to be the best method, if it were truly available. The cross would also be unnecessary, if “prevent” was a valid option.

Actually, it was the Cross that made the “prevent” method both possible and necessary, in Mary’s case. Keep in mind, she bore Him physically in her womb - she was the Ark of the New Covenant. It was fitting and right for her to be even more pure than the Ark of the Old Covenant - and you remember that ritually unpurified flesh could not touch the Ark of the Old Covenant without being destroyed. That Ark carried only symbols of God’s Word - Mary was carrying Him in Person.

 

[I_am_Me]

Thank you for the quick responses!

Here is my problem. It is very clear in the Bible that:

(Romans 3:10) - it is written, “There is none righteous, not even one.”
(Romans 3:23) - “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”
(Psalm 14:3) - “They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

So what is it in your Apostolic teachings and Traditions/History that agree with these verses (and many others) where all have sinned BUT Mary.

Thanks again for your patience to some honest questions!

(As an aside, if Mary was without sin then she did not need a sacrifice in Jesus since she was able to declare her own righteousness?)

I completley agree with you!

 

[Gamera]

So did Mary not need Jesus as her Savior since only sinners need a Savior?

Mary needed a Savior. Jesus was her savior. He saved her in a special way – anticipatorliy, at the moment of her conception.

It isn’t correct to say that “only sinners need a savior.” Only sinners need a redeemer. Mary didn’t need a redeemer but she still need a Savior.

The immaculate conception doesn’t mean that “Mary didn’t need a savior.” Just the opposite. The whole point of the immaculate conception is that Jesus saved Mary at her conception. Having been saved by Jesus in that unique way at conception, she did not need to be redeemed once she was born.

 

[Gamera]

Okay, I see how you all come up with a sinless Mary.

So does that mean there can be others who are sinless too? He could save me from sinning too while using your quicksand analogy. Why just Mary?

My question still rests in the Bible. I put a few verses and will list others only if you really want me too, but it is crystal clear that ALL have sinned.

Thanks again!

Luke 1:6 states that Zechariah and Elizabeth (John the Baptist’s parents) never committed a personal sin. “And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blamelessly,” Luke 1:6. And of course there are infants, who lack the mental capacity to commit personal sin, and some mentally challenged people who never will have the capacity to commit personal sin. So it is crystal clear that NOT “all” have sinned in the sense of every individual human being hacving committed a personal sin.

Romans 3:23 means that all peoples – both Jew and gentile — inherit original sin. It doesn’t mean that every individual human being has committed personal sin. That is a common Protestant misreading. Mary also would have inherited original sin but for the fact that Jesus saved her in a unique way, at conception.

 

[Reuben_J]

And the real question is, does it really matter? Does salvation depend on whether or not Mary was born with original sin? Does our ability to evangelize and expose others to the Gospel rely on whether Mary was born with original sin?

If it does not matter, I would rather go for the one that Mary was born sinless.I would rather believe that Mary was Jesus’ real mother. And since Jesus is God too, born of his mother, I have no problem believing that God himself was being carried in a pure and holy womb, that was Mary.

More importantly it is about God himself, his nature. I gladly accept that he chose a woman, made her sinless, and came into the world through her. Whether this will help me to evangelize better, I don’t know, but I have no problem accepting this fact. No one knew that God would become incarnate until Jesus himself came. And when he came we accept him. It’s all about Him.

 

[Reuben_J]

There are many things we could live without, but God chooses to give them to us anyway - God isn’t a minimalist, or a stingy giver.

God has revealed to us that Mary is without Original Sin. If we doubt Him in this, then what else might we doubt Him in? If we pick and choose among the things that God reveals to us, to choose only those things that “make sense” or “seem essential” then, pretty soon, we’ll run out of things to believe in. :hammering:

But if we joyfully accept on faith everything that He gives us, then we will only strengthen our faith and our love for Him. :flowers:

Good post.

 

[Hajnalcsillag]

There are many things we could live without, but God chooses to give them to us anyway - God isn’t a minimalist, or a stingy giver.

God has revealed to us that Mary is without Original Sin. If we doubt Him in this, then what else might we doubt Him in? If we pick and choose among the things that God reveals to us, to choose only those things that “make sense” or “seem essential” then, pretty soon, we’ll run out of things to believe in. :hammering:

But if we joyfully accept on faith everything that He gives us, then we will only strengthen our faith and our love for Him. :flowers:

How has it been revealed that Mary is without original sin? (And don’t say “Catholic tradition” or anything similar)

And I think that if we focus only on things that seem essential, we’ll soon run out of things that divide us that have no reason to divide us.

 

[Gamera]

How has it been revealed that Mary is without original sin? (And don’t say “Catholic tradition” or anything similar)

Tradition with a capital “T”, meaning the Apostles’ preaching, is God’s word just as much as is Scripture (1 Thes 2:13). Telling a Catholic to state his case without using Apostolic Tradition is no different from telling a Catholic to state his case without citing Scripture.

“Kercharitomene,” the Greek word translated as “full of grace,” is in a grammatic tense which implies timelessness. When Gabriel greeted Mary, he used this word, stating that Mary always had been and always would be “full of grace.”

And I think that if we focus only on things that seem essential, we’ll soon run out of things that divide us that have no reason to divide us.

I’m all for ecumenism. Ecumenism must be honest, though. The Catholic Church lacks the authority to delete or downplay any part of the deposit of faith.