Did Mary sin?

[jmcrae]

How has it been revealed that Mary is without original sin? (And don’t say “Catholic tradition” or anything similar)

Actually, the Holy Tradition is very clear that Mary is “the New Eve” and if that doesn’t spell “born without sin” I have no idea what would.

And I think that if we focus only on things that seem essential, we’ll soon run out of things that divide us that have no reason to divide us.

True - two groups of people who have no firm convictions on anything that might be important to them can certainly get along with each other very well, under nearly any circumstances. But Jesus doesn’t call us to get along with each other at the cost of truth - in fact, He even describes Himself as a dividing sword, in one place.

 

[tassitus]

…True - two groups of people who have no firm convictions on anything that might be important to them can certainly get along with each other very well, under nearly any circumstances. But Jesus doesn’t call us to get along with each other at the cost of truth - in fact, He even describes Himself as a dividing sword, in one place.

Agreed.

“A man of conscience, is one who never acquires tolerance, well-being, success, public standing, and approval on the part of prevailing opinion, at the expense of truth.”

Pope Benedict XVI

 

[Eli4n4]

This is not Catholic Doctrine, but it is something I was thinking about.

When a female child is born, all the eggs she will ever release are already produced. This means the egg that was to become Jesus in union with the Holy Spirit was already present.

Perhaps the grace and sanctification of Jesus was also already present also.

Perhaps this is why the angel gave Mary the title of “Full of Grace”

Wild speculation, I know, just thinking…

I love it!!..I’ll be passing that 1 around…

 

[Scientiphic]

I’m not going to write to much at this point, but just from browsing some threads I see that Catholics do not believe Mary sinned during her entire life. She lived a sinless life.

1. Is this correct?
2. What takes precedence if there is a contradiction? Scripture, Church Leadership, Other Writings, Tradition, etc.? i.e. What is your source of finality in regards to truth.

Thanks! I look forward to learning much from you all.

Saved by Grace, you have asked a very good question. But there’s only 3 types of answers you will EVER get for this.

1 - Catholic tradition. So catholics believe.
2 - Popes says so without conflict. So catholics believe.
3 - All does not always means all.

The catholics purposefully CHOSE to believe that Mary was sinless. There is no scripture to show that she was specifically made sinless. Such verses which the catholics insist upon, do not exist in the Holy Bible.

If all does not mean all, then one should not mean one either. Which is why catholics believe that when Jesus says every-one will be taught by God, they choooose to believe that every-one refers only to those in the cathos community. They warp the entire concept of Salvation.

You see, its all in their heads.

Catholics believe in purgatory & indulgences (used in the past). But the Bible clearly states (without them knowing because they don’t read the bible) that man is deemed righteous by their faith.

Romans 4:5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

*** Righteousness does not mean sinless. It means God redeems them from their sins because of their faith in Him.

.

 

[Luke65]

This is not Catholic Doctrine, but it is something I was thinking about.

When a female child is born, all the eggs she will ever release are already produced. This means the egg that was to become Jesus in union with the Holy Spirit was already present.

Perhaps the grace and sanctification of Jesus was also already present also.

Perhaps this is why the angel gave Mary the title of “Full of Grace”

Wild speculation, I know, just thinking…

Actually, I think Catholic Doctrine precludes it:

“We declare, pronounce and define that the doctrine which holds that the Blessed Virgin Mary, at the first instant of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace of the Omnipotent God, in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of mankind, was preserved immaculate from all stain of original sin, has been revealed by God, and therefore should firmly and constantly be believed by all the faithful.”

 

[Scientiphic]

Actually, I think Catholic Doctrine precludes it:

“We declare, pronounce and define that the doctrine which holds that the Blessed Virgin Mary, at the first instant of her conception, by a singular privilege and grace of the Omnipotent God, in virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of mankind, was preserved immaculate from all stain of original sin, has been revealed by God, and therefore should firmly and constantly be believed by all the faithful.”

Jesus was conceived in Mary without any impregnation of any man and grew in the Holy Spirit. There is no reason to believe then that He had any original sin, even if Mary (the host) was sinful.

Jesus was not born of woman, He was the Son of God.

Job 25:4 How can a person be justified before God? How can one born of woman be pure?

THINK…if Jesus was born of woman, he’d be lower than even John the Baptist!..because: Matthew 11:11 " I assure you: Among those born of women no one greater than John the Baptist has appeared, but the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

How can it be???

FACT: Mary is called the mother of Jesus, but Jesus is NOT born of woman…but of God. Mary is merely a vessel, a humble servant of God.

Luke1:38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord

 

[adstrinity]

Just to clarify, Catholics still may recieve indulgences depending on one’s state of grace, one’s intention, and the pennance to be performed. We still very much believe in the validity of indulgences.

 

[Scientiphic]

Just to clarify, Catholics still may recieve indulgences depending on one’s state of grace, one’s intention, and the pennance to be performed. We still very much believe in the validity of indulgences.

Why is there indulgences when the Bible says the just shall live by faith?

 

[Luke65]

Catholics believe in purgatory & indulgences (used in the past). But the Bible clearly states (without them knowing because they don’t read the bible) that man is deemed righteous by their faith.

Romans 4:5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

*** Righteousness does not mean sinless. It means God redeems them from their sins because of their faith in Him.
.

You’re right, righteousness does not mean sinless, but nothing impure gets into Heaven. So keep reading your Bible, Scientiphic (after you remove your veil):

“As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled to him on the way, or he may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” (Luke 12:58-59)

If you want to believe that Christ was explaining how the Roman legal system worked, in the Bible, well, that’s your free will. Keep reading:

“In the whole land [or earth],” declares the LORD, “two-thirds will be struck down and perish; yet one-third will be left in it. This third I will bring into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold.”
(Zechariah 13:8-9)

“But if any person’s work is burned up [under the test], he will suffer the loss [of it all, losing his reward], though he himself will be saved, but only as [one who has passed] through fire.” (1 Corinthians 3:15 AMP)

Hopefully that answers your questions on Purgatory and indulgences.

 

[Scientiphic]

You’re right, righteousness does not mean sinless, but nothing impure gets into Heaven. So keep reading your Bible, Scientiphic (after you remove your veil):

“As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled to him on the way, or he may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” (Luke 12:58-59)

If you want to believe that Christ was explaining how the Roman legal system worked, in the Bible, well, that’s your free will. Keep reading:

“In the whole land [or earth],” declares the LORD, “two-thirds will be struck down and perish; yet one-third will be left in it. This third I will bring into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold.”
(Zechariah 13:8-9)

“But if any person’s work is burned up [under the test], he will suffer the loss [of it all, losing his reward], though he himself will be saved, but only as [one who has passed] through fire.” (1 Corinthians 3:15 AMP)

Hopefully that answers your questions on Purgatory and indulgences.

You quoted. So? I also know how to quote. Where are the answers and are these even relevant…I seriously don’t know what you’re doing (perhaps also with your life), before you even talk you start insulting.

.

 

[Gamera]

Scientiphic, I see you’ve only made a few posts so far, so first let me say welcome to CAF!

Here’s what jumped out at me in your posts:

… before you even talk you start insulting.
.

… (without them knowing because they don’t read the bible) …

I’m Catholic. I’ve read the Bible cover to cover. I read one chapter each night with my wife. (I’ve also read the Catechism of the Catholic Church cover to cover, and they conform perfectly). In fact, one of the indulgences which you mention is given for the reading of Scripture.

I don’t know you, nor anything about you, but at face value your remark that Catholics “don’t read the Bible” certainly seems like an insult. But maybe that’s just what someone told you about Catholics, and you didn’t realize it’s false. My question is, what is your basis for the statement that Catholics don’t read our Bibles?

 

[LilyM]

Jesus was NOT born of woman, you say scientiphic?

‘Behold, you (Mary) will conceive in your womb (in natural sense of providing an egg, not in some totally unnatural surrogate-type arrangement where nothing of her DNA was given to the child, which could not be called HER conception by any stretch of the imagination) and bear a Son’ … so I’m guessing God and His angel would beg to differ with you on that point.

If you’re saying Jesus was not born of Mary - had none of her genetic material or DNA - then you’re talking rubbish. He wouldn’t be human at all if such was the case, howsoever much He might adopt the appearance and form of one.

And not being human, firstly there would be absolutely no point in having her bear Him. He might as well have just appeared on the Temple steps one day, either as a foundling babe or a full-grown man. Secondly, there would be no point in His passion and death - if He was not human, in the sense of being bone of Mary’s bone and flesh of her flesh, His death couldn’t possibly atone for humankind’s sin.

 

[Gamera]

Why is there indulgences when the Bible says the just shall live by faith?

Why is there a Bible when the Bible says the just shall live by faith?

 

[adstrinity]

Why is there indulgences when the Bible says the just shall live by faith?

Because the Bible doesn’t say the just shall live sans sin.

 

[neweyes]

Please explain in very simple terms (without posting a link) what an indulgence is and why you believe in this.
Thanks…

 

[adstrinity]

Please explain in very simple terms (without posting a link) what an indulgence is and why you believe in this.
Thanks…

An indulgence is a remittance of the effects of sin. Indulgences lessen our time in Purgatory.

I sin. Sin has concequences, it effects everything in the world to make it worse.

I go to Confession. God forgives me. I am given pennance to get back to God. I ask God for His Graces.

Because I am in a perfect state of Grace at this time, IF I HAVE THE RIGHT INTENTION, my prayers may suffice as partial indulgence.

I know that reading my Bible for 15 minutes a day, if I am in a state of Grace, and with the proper intention of getting to know God and love God (and NOT because I want to get out of Purgatory faster), grants me a partial indulgence. This means that my stay is somehow lessened in Purgatory because I made up for my sins while here on Earth.

There are ways to get plenary indulgences, meaning that I am so in Grace that when I preform that indulgence, should I die at that moment, I will go straight to Heaven, bypassing Purgatory.

I believe this because Jesus’ Bride teaches it and therefore, it is true.

 

[jmcrae]

Why is there indulgences when the Bible says the just shall live by faith?

Because the just shall live by faith?

Tell me what you think Indulgences are - maybe you have some kind of a misunderstanding.

 

[brkn1]

An indulgence is a remittance of the effects of sin. Indulgences lessen our time in Purgatory.

I sin. Sin has concequences, it effects everything in the world to make it worse.

I go to Confession. God forgives me. I am given pennance to get back to God. I ask God for His Graces.

Because I am in a perfect state of Grace at this time, IF I HAVE THE RIGHT INTENTION, my prayers may suffice as partial indulgence.

I know that reading my Bible for 15 minutes a day, if I am in a state of Grace, and with the proper intention of getting to know God and love God (and NOT because I want to get out of Purgatory faster), grants me a partial indulgence. This means that my stay is somehow lessened in Purgatory because I made up for my sins while here on Earth.

There are ways to get plenary indulgences, meaning that I am so in Grace that when I preform that indulgence, should I die at that moment, I will go straight to Heaven, bypassing Purgatory.

I believe this because Jesus’ Bride teaches it and therefore, it is true.

If you could do ANYTHING to “make up for your sins”, then Jesus suffered and died needlessly.
Your works-based “making up” for your sin would mean that you contribute to the purging of your sin. This completely contradicts the (Hebrews 1:3) verse that says: “…, when He (Jesus) had BY HIMSELF purged our sins,…”.

I know that you will go to the “Jesus gave us the grace to do it ourself” explanation, but you still can not get past the true meaning of “by Himself” with that. Jesus did it all, when it comes to purging. Grace has to do with our accepting and receiving that purging as a gift; not doing any of the purging of our sin by ourself.

You take away from and insult what Jesus did for us, when you claim that you are even a partial contributor to that purging. You can’t purge even the least of your sins. What we might consider to be a “small sin” is really a great and eternally condemning sin to our infinitely Holy God. Only God can remove that sin (by Himself) and He did so by the one Perfect Sacrifice at Calvary.
God’s Grace is what enables us to believe and accept that attonement for our sin. We don’t do any of the purging ourselves.

 

[neweyes]

An indulgence is a remittance of the effects of sin. Indulgences lessen our time in Purgatory.

I don’t believe in purgatory.

I sin. Sin has concequences, it effects everything in the world to make it worse.

I agree with this.

I go to Confession. God forgives me. I am given pennance to get back to God. I ask God for His Graces.

I confess to God and ask His forgiveness, and to the others I need to apologize to. God instantly forgives.

Because I am in a perfect state of Grace at this time, IF I HAVE THE RIGHT INTENTION, my prayers may suffice as partial indulgence.

While there are always consequences to my sinful behavior, I don’t need to do anything more to earn God’s love and grace, which He grants freely.

I know that reading my Bible for 15 minutes a day, if I am in a state of Grace, and with the proper intention of getting to know God and love God (and NOT because I want to get out of Purgatory faster), grants me a partial indulgence. This means that my stay is somehow lessened in Purgatory because I made up for my sins while here on Earth.

I know that nothing I do–whether it’s a week of prayer and fasting or spending hours reading the Bible–NOTHING earns me any special rights and privileges with God. There is no formula, chant or time segment required.

There are ways to get plenary indulgences, meaning that I am so in Grace that when I preform that indulgence, should I die at that moment, I will go straight to Heaven, bypassing Purgatory.

As His daughter, I know with confidence that I will go straight to heaven the moment I leave this earth.

I believe this because Jesus’ Bride teaches it and therefore, it is true.

I believe this because Jesus Himself taught this.

 

[adstrinity]

If you could do ANYTHING to “make up for your sins”, then Jesus suffered and died needlessly.
Your works-based “making up” for your sin would mean that you contribute to the purging of your sin. This completely contradicts the (Hebrews 1:3) verse that says: “…, when He (Jesus) had BY HIMSELF purged our sins,…”.

I know that you will go to the “Jesus gave us the grace to do it ourself” explanation, but you still can not get past the true meaning of “by Himself” with that. Jesus did it all, when it comes to purging. Grace has to do with our accepting and receiving that purging as a gift; not doing any of the purging of our sin by ourself.

You take away from and insult what Jesus did for us, when you claim that you are even a partial contributor to that purging. You can’t purge even the least of your sins. What we might consider to be a “small sin” is really a great and eternally condemning sin to our infinitely Holy God. Only God can remove that sin (by Himself) and He did so by the one Perfect Sacrifice at Calvary.
God’s Grace is what enables us to believe and accept that attonement for our sin. We don’t do any of the purging ourselves.

I have to make reparations to God for my sins. To believe otherwise is to lie. Jesus died for my sins, but, Him dying does not take away my sins, that is, I still sin. I am forgiven, but, I need to make up my offenses to God because I want to undo what I have done. Jesus still lets me sin. I need to mend what I have broken between God & I, Man & I, Nature & I.

I don’t believe in purgatory.

Good to know, but, you asked what an indulgence is and Purgatory is part of the explination.