Did Mary (The Mother of our Savior) Need a Savior?

[CopticChristian]

Just as serious as those saying God ,being holy ,can not “mix” with sinful flesh …hence the need for an immaculate conception .As I said before I do not believe the unborn child “mixes” with any flesh.,except for dna. Very good pick-up It would be like this: suppose His next coming would be thru a maiden .Yet this maiden was a devout catholic-baptized confirmed and up to the minute confessed etc ,would her sins be forgiven ,would she be “clean” before the Lord ,enough to birth Him ? Or would all that not be enough ,requiring a special dispensation of her own conception? See what is implied is that the method of sanctification and justification were inadequate in the old testament. You are correct, in the new we are born again, just as in the old (called regeneration) Hence the Spirit sups with a regenerated heart, spirit soul (yet the sinful flesh.mortal remains) Paul says justification remains constant in the old and new via faith in the promised one .They looked forward and we look backward (to Calvary) for justification .Again, the implication is that this was not enough for Mary that indeed the shedding of blood was not enough to cleanse her, though it was for David ,Abraham ,Enoch Elijah and Job (who was perfect) No one is saying God enetred an unregenerated sinful soul ,a heathen , but a young Jewish maiden washed by the future blood of the Lamb, via faith ,and full of grace.

David,

I pointed this out before. Chimerism is the fact that fetal cells mix with maternal cells and maternal cells mix with fetal cells. In other words every mother that bears a child has living within her flesh of her children incorporated into her body. The same is true of every child. Every child has maternal cells inocroporated into their cells that incorporate and become part of their flesh. You believe that Mary with sin in the flesh, imparted maternal cells to her son, and that Jesus was with sin.

Dispute the scientific evidence of this. This more than anything causes me to believe that Mary was without sin or Jesus was walking the earth with Mary’s sinful nature.

 

[stewstew03]

Just as serious as those saying God ,being holy ,can not “mix” with sinful flesh …hence the need for an immaculate conception .As I said before I do not believe the unborn child “mixes” with any flesh.,except for dna. Very good pick-up It would be like this: suppose His next coming would be thru a maiden .Yet this maiden was a devout catholic-baptized confirmed and up to the minute confessed etc ,would her sins be forgiven ,would she be “clean” before the Lord ,enough to birth Him ? Or would all that not be enough ,requiring a special dispensation of her own conception? See what is implied is that the method of sanctification and justification were inadequate in the old testament. You are correct, in the new we are born again, just as in the old (called regeneration) Hence the Spirit sups with a regenerated heart, spirit soul (yet the sinful flesh.mortal remains) Paul says justification remains constant in the old and new via faith in the promised one .They looked forward and we look backward (to Calvary) for justification .Again, the implication is that this was not enough for Mary that indeed the shedding of blood was not enough to cleanse her, though it was for David ,Abraham ,Enoch Elijah and Job (who was perfect) No one is saying God enetred an unregenerated sinful soul ,a heathen , but a young Jewish maiden washed by the future blood of the Lamb, via faith ,and full of grace.

Mr. Ruiz, respectfully, this site may help: grammarbook.com/punctuation_rules.asp

 

[david_ruiz]

david ruiz;9190816:

Well I looked up chimerism and it is rare for humans ,that is it is not normal and as such did not apply to Christ .Again, this was just a quick search .Furthermore, it is a myth that fetal blood and maternal blood mix.They do not.I believe the only “donation” is the egg (dna) , which is transformed into a unique entity anyways with the introduction of the “male” counterpart. Furthermore ,there is no evidence that Mary’s dna was any different or more perfect (as a new Eve) than any other Jewish maiden of the time .There was nothing of comeliness to Christ , as one might expect for a new perfect Adam (from a dna standpoint). Christ also aged as any other Jewish boy, again suggesting dna that was normal for the age .Part of the curse from the garden was longevity of life being affected and some suggest Adam and Eve had perfect dna. Again ,sin is a spiritual problem .A carbon atom or red blood cell is not “sin” unless diseased. This is so Phariseical for they worried about the external when Christ said what defiles a man ((his flesh? no his spirit) is what comes from within, and proceedeth out. You and I do not sin because we have a mix with our parent cells that are sinful .That Jesus was free from sin has nothing to do with Mary’s pregnancy.

 

[david_ruiz]

Mr. Ruiz, respectfully, this site may help: grammarbook.com/punctuation_rules.asp

Thank-you for the truthful humor.You are not the first to point it out .Sorry, since my first critique I improved with my comma spacing/placement, believe it or not. I will try harder.

 

[stewstew03]

Thank-you for the truthful humor.You are not the first to point it out .Sorry, since my first critique I improved with my comma spacing/placement, believe it or not. I will try harder.

No worries!

 

[CopticChristian]

CopticChristian;9191797:

david ruiz;9190816:

Well I looked up chimerism and** it is rare for humans **

,that is it is not normal and as such did not apply to Christ .Again, this was just a quick search .Furthermore, it is a** myth that fetal blood and maternal blood mix.**They do not.I believe the only “donation” is the egg (dna) , which is transformed into a unique entity anyways with the introduction of the “male” counterpart. Furthermore ,there is no evidence that Mary’s dna was any different or more perfect (as a new Eve) than any other Jewish maiden of the time .There was nothing of comeliness to Christ , as one might expect for a new perfect Adam (from a dna standpoint). Christ also aged as any other Jewish boy, again suggesting dna that was normal for the age .Part of the curse from the garden was longevity of life being affected and some suggest Adam and Eve had perfect dna. Again ,sin is a spiritual problem .A carbon atom or red blood cell is not “sin” unless diseased. This is so Phariseical for they worried about the external when Christ said what defiles a man ((his flesh? no his spirit) is what comes from within, and proceedeth out. You and I do not sin because we have a mix with our parent cells that are sinful .That Jesus was free from sin has nothing to do with Mary’s pregnancy.

D.R,

Seriously. I rarely like invoking the fact that I am a Physician. The fact that maternal and fetal cells mix is common knowledge. The NIH website is where you find scientific articles on the topic.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22163064

In recent years, the trafficking of maternal cells to the offspring has been clearly demonstrated.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21912719

These data suggest that maternal microchimerism in blood and biopsies is a relatively common phenomenon that has neither positive nor negative impact on IBD.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21547031

The transfer of fetal cells into mothers during pregnancy and their organ specific integration is a well recognized phenomenon in placental vertebrates.

You do not believe that the fetus and maternal blood are not mixed. What is the purpose of the placenta? Maternal blood crosses from the placenta to the fetus and vice versa. Maternal and fetal cells transfer as well.

You did not look in the right place and you are wrong that the maternal and fetal blood do not mix. You may want to look up Rh factor and things like that.

It is no myth. You are wrong.

 

[Cavaradossi]

I don’t mean to crash this party or anything, but I find a few of the things which were said in this thread about the all-holy Theotokos to be somewhat disturbing. Salvation involves a transformation (or transfiguration) of the human race and of the entire cosmos, not just a legal justification before God. Without Christ, her sinlessness and blamelessness would have availed her nothing, because she would not have been of the new creation but of the old. It is only by virtue of the Christ’s restoration of the world that she too could be saved.

 

[ConstantineTG]

As a Catholic kid … I heard the prayer/song at least a thousand times… Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.

If, as the words indicate, Mary was without sin, the logical conclusion is that she was not in need of a Savior.

(name removed by moderator)ut?

She didn’t become conceived without sin out of her own power. So yes, she needed a saviour.

 

[CopticChristian]

I don’t mean to crash this party or anything, but I find a few of the things which were said in this thread about the all-holy Theotokos to be somewhat disturbing. Salvation involves a transformation (or transfiguration) of the human race and of the entire cosmos, not just a legal justification before God. Without Christ, her sinlessness and blamelessness would have availed her nothing, because she would not have been of the new creation but of the old. It is only by virtue of the Christ’s restoration of the world that she too could be saved.

Amen:thumbsup:

 

[CopticChristian]

She didn’t become conceived without sin out of her own power. So yes, she needed a saviour.

Amen and Amen.

 

[david_ruiz]

david ruiz;9192235:

CopticChristian;9191797:

david ruiz;9190816:

You did not look in the right place and you are wrong that the maternal and fetal blood do not mix. You may want to look up Rh factor and things like that.

It is no myth. You are wrong.

Quite possibly ,but your argument then is with other doctors on the internet who suggets the opposite.

 

[Farsight001]

CopticChristian;9192345:

david ruiz;9192235:

CopticChristian;9191797:

Quite possibly ,but your argument then is with other doctors on the internet who suggets the opposite.

Some of the posters here are themselves medical doctors and biologists and the like. I don’t know what doctors on the internet you’re talking to, but I don’t think you should go to them for a physical if they think that.

 

[stewstew03]

Quite possibly ,but your argument then is with other doctors on the internet who suggets the opposite.

Speaking for myself, I would not want to tangle with “doctors on the internet.”

Be careful Dr. Coptic…

 

[CopticChristian]

CopticChristian;9192345:

david ruiz;9192235:

CopticChristian;9191797:

Quite possibly ,but your argument then is with other doctors on the internet who suggets the opposite.

show me.

 

[CopticChristian]

david ruiz;9193533:

CopticChristian;9192345:

david ruiz;9192235:

Some of the posters here are themselves medical doctors and biologists and the like. I don’t know what doctors on the internet you’re talking to, but I don’t think you should go to them for a physical if they think that.

think what?

 

[CopticChristian]

Speaking for myself, I would not want to tangle with “doctors on the internet.”

Be careful Dr. Coptic…

I do not understand what it is you folks are talking about. The NIH website is a site for published articles. I have seen nothing about what it is you are talking about. What care is there to take?

 

[Farsight001]

think what?

I was responding to David. Quotation issues with his posts attributed his words to you. (and then in your reply, my words to him)

 

[stewstew03]

I do not understand what it is you folks are talking about. The NIH website is a site for published articles. I have seen nothing about what it is you are talking about. What care is there to take?

I was being sardonic.

 

[david_ruiz]

david ruiz;9193533:

CopticChristian;9192345:

david ruiz;9192235:

show me.

babyzone.com/pregnancy/fetal-development/anatomy-fetus-placenta_70439 "does fetal blood mix with mothers " and you get a bunch of the sAME ANSWERS.sORRY ,YOU WERE VERY GOOD WITH YOUR SOURCES, I DO NOT KNOW HOW TO ADD THE LINK, JUST PASTED IT…JUST TRIED IT AND IT WORKS! THANKS FOR YOUR PATIENCE

 

[CopticChristian]

CopticChristian;9193808:

david ruiz;9193533:

babyzone.com/pregnancy/fetal-development/anatomy-fetus-placenta_70439

"does fetal blood mix with mothers " and you get a bunch of the sAME ANSWERS.sORRY ,YOU WERE VERY GOOD WITH YOUR SOURCES, I DO NOT KNOW HOW TO ADD THE LINK, JUST PASTED IT…JUST TRIED IT AND IT WORKS! THANKS FOR YOUR PATIENCE

D.R.,

This link you provided is from a throw away as we call it in the business. What I will provide you comes from a site called Medscape. You cannot access unless you have a membership.
I provided the link however unless you have a log in I do not know if you can access it.

medscape.com/viewarticle/465897

**
Life Inside the Womb: Implications for Newborn and Infant Nurses **

Kim LaMar, ND, RNC, CNNP; Cheryl Hamernik, MSN, RNC, CNNP****

Neonatal Experts Organization (NEO), University of Michigan Hospitals, Ann Arbor, MI

The placenta is a transporter of oxygen, nutrients, waste material, and carbon dioxide between mother and fetus. Whether a substance may pass through the placenta between mother and fetus depends on its molecular size, shape, and charge.

12] The substances not likely to pass in significant amounts include bacteria, heparin, sIgA, and IgM. Most antigens are small whereas IgM is a large molecule. This makes IgM a useful test in the neonate when searching for infection, as the most likely way the neonate will have a level greater than 20 mg/dL is if it was produced in response to a specific antigen that did pass through the placenta. IgG on the other hand is a small molecule that will readily pass through the placenta making it less useful as a diagnostic marker for infection in the neonate. Maternal IgG has four subclasses that transfer across the placenta as early as 16 weeks’ gestation. The third subclass of IgG does not cross the placenta until 32 weeks’ gestation, with the majority of the transfer occurring in the last trimester. Small-for-gestation infants or postdate infants have a lower level of IgG than appropriate for gestation infants, leading to the hypothesis that placental function impacts the transfer of antibodies. The IgG antibodies are instrumental in fetal passive immunity to infection, although they may also be harmful, as in cases of maternal Graves disease, antiplatelet antibody, maternal systemic lupus erythmatosus, or Rho (D) isoimmunization. Other substances that pass through the placenta include red blood cell antigens, carbon dioxide, oxygen, some viruses, and nutrients.

The notion of the mixing is accurate however red blood cell antigens and fetal cells do pass through the Placenta.

Now remmember that this is based on technology we have today 2012. What will be discovered in 100 years will add to that information as what and how things transfer through the Placenta will be different and better understood. This was not known at the time of the Reformation.