Did Mohammed see an angel?

[Verisimilitude]

Hi

Kindly devote a little time reading such passages from OTBible and inform us who were the witnesses of Moses on the mount.

There can’t be any as he went alone there.

It is the message only that Moses brought which testifies .

Thanks

True, no one saw the burning bush with Moses, but:

Exodus 4: 27 The LORD said to Aaron, “Go into the desert to meet Moses.” So he met Moses at the mountain of God and kissed him. 28 Then Moses told Aaron everything the LORD had sent him to say, and also about all the miraculous signs he had commanded him to perform.

Aaron was also an instrument of God working closely with Moses to free Israel from Egypt.

Muhamed had no such help or witness.

Exodus 19:16 On the morning of the third day there was thunder and lightning, with a thick cloud over the mountain, and a very loud trumpet blast. Everyone in the camp trembled. 17 Then Moses led the people out of the camp to meet with God, and they stood at the foot of the mountain. 18 Mount Sinai was covered with smoke, because the LORD descended on it in fire. The smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace, the whole mountain ** trembled violently, 19 and the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder. Then Moses spoke and the voice of God answered him.**

Mohamed and allah performed no such signs.

Regardless, I personally do not dispute Muhamed had an experience at Hira. I absolutely dispute who that spirit was because Mohamed did not know as noted by the hadith. You speak of common sense with regard to the real contradictions regarding the Qurans creation of man being nothing, dust, clay or blood, but do not use your common sense when considering:
1.) the spirit never identified itself to Mohamed
2.) Mohamed admits the revelations/visitations stopped for years after the first one
3.) not one other person ever saw or heard anything that Mohamed did so Mohamed is the only source
4.) what Mohamed/allah said is factually and characteristicly wrong of accepted history and the known nature of God

I accept the first visitation to Mohamed was demonic not angelic because the fruits of that influence are contrary what I accept as real Angelic experiences that herald the call of Abraham, the establishment of Mosaic Law, and the words to Mary regarding Jesus.

Common sense would tell a reasonable rational person that the Cause of Allah is in opposition the Good News. They are not complimentary nor are they successive messeges. Atheists may reasonably conclude both are false by the lack of physical evidence all spiritual visitations are hindered by, but those who do believe in God and the spirit world conclude both cannot be true. It is why Islam rejects what the OT and NT say, because it is total illogic for them all to be valid- they cannot be.

 

[thedavidwilson]

However, the question is – What difference would this make to Christians since they believe that Satan is a fallen angel?

Do muslims believe that satan is NOT a fallen angel? Is Satan a valid (i.e. good) angel in islam? That would explain a lot.

 

[De_Maria]

lol…

Are you kidding? I won’t waste my time going through each of these other than to say at least Mohammed wrote something down.

According to Muslims, Mohammed couldn’t write. According to Muslims, everything which he dictated be written was burnt.

We don’t have any evidence that Jesus put anything in writing…

Jesus did not write anything down. He established a Church, gave Her the authority to preach and teach and make disciples of the world. With this authority, the Church took it upon Herself to discern which were the true Old Testament Scriptures and New Testament Scriptures.

Your zeal for the faith is admirable, however, attacking others on the “evidentiary” foundation of their faith is not, given that our “evidentiary” foundation is just as open to empirical critique.

Then critique it. The Catholic Church has nothing to fear from within or from without the Church.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Peregrino]

Jesus did not write anything down. He established a Church, gave Her the authority to preach and teach and make disciples of the world. With this authority, the Church took it upon Herself to discern which were the true Old Testament Scriptures and New Testament Scriptures.

It is matter of pure faith on your part that he actually said these things. You are taking it on faith that the gospels report accurately the words and wishes of Jesus, which “gave” the “church” “authority”.

The church takes it upon itself to do a great many things. It is also a matter of faith that these things conform to the wishes of Jesus…

If you want to critique Islam on its fruits, i.e. what behaviors and policies flow from the interpretations of its tradition that is great and even possibly productive as long as the dialogue is friendly and honest. Attacking a faith tradition on an issue as amorphous and subjective as Mary’s or Muhammed’s claim that they conversed with the angel Gabriel is silly. You either belief it or you don’t.

 

[De_Maria]

lol…

Are you kidding? I won’t waste my time going through each of these other than to say at least Mohammed wrote something down.

According to Muslims, Mohammed couldn’t write. According to Muslims, everything which he dictated be written was burnt.

We don’t have any evidence that Jesus put anything in writing…

Jesus did not write anything down. He established a Church, gave Her the authority to preach and teach and make disciples of the world. With this authority, the Church took it upon Herself to discern which were the true Old Testament Scriptures and New Testament Scriptures.

Your zeal for the faith is admirable, however, attacking others on the “evidentiary” foundation of their faith is not, given that our “evidentiary” foundation is just as open to empirical critique.

Then critique it. The Catholic Church has nothing to fear from within or from without the Church.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

It is matter of pure faith on your part that he actually said these things.

Sure. But not blind faith.

I have reviewed the evidence. People who lived with Jesus attested to the authenticity of his life, teachings and miracles. They attested to what they saw and experienced. They wrote their testimonies in the Bible.

On the other hand, those who wrote the Quran could only attest to what Mohammed said. They did not see any angels, they did not see God, they did not witness any miracles. Therefore, those who believe the Quran are taking it on blind faith.

You are taking it on faith that the gospels report accurately the words and wishes of Jesus, which “gave” the “church” “authority”.

That is true. But I have placed my faith in people who gave their lives for what they believed. I place my faith in people who don’t believe in lying and whose conduct after they converted to the faith is beyond reproach. I placed my faith in people whose religion which they profess has changed my life exactly as they said it would.

On the other hand, Mohammed taught the virtue of lying. Mohammed made up new revelations to suit him, such as the one to permit him to take more wives. Mohammed did not write anything down and in the Quran warned that anyone who wrote down a false prophecy was condemned (Clever of him).

The church takes it upon itself to do a great many things. It is also a matter of faith that these things conform to the wishes of Jesus…

But that is true. It is a matter of faith. That is why it is called the Faith. But it is not blind faith, as s the case with Islam.

That is why the Church has a three prong way of proving the validity of Her Teachings. Magisterium, Tradition and Scripture. In addition, the various Scripture manuscripts from various countries have all been substantiated to within 99% accuracy. A miracle in itself considering the violent circumstances of the times.

You present yourself as a Catholic. Yet your demeanor in these messages is one of a skeptic.

If you want to critique Islam on its fruits, i.e. what behaviors and policies flow from the interpretations of its tradition that is great and even possibly productive as long as the dialogue is friendly and honest. Attacking a faith tradition on an issue as amorphous and subjective as Mary’s or Muhammed’s claim that they conversed with the angel Gabriel is silly. You either belief it or you don’t.

Speak for yourelf. I was formerly atheist. I believe Christianity because it has the verifiable evidence which even atheists can’t produce. No other religion on this earth can produce the volumes of evidence that the Catholic Church provides.

And that is as it should be. I would not believe any organization to be of God if it could not produce verifiable evidence of its truths.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Your belief in Christian claims amounts to exactly the same thing-blind faith!. Blind faith in the veracity of Christian writings and claims. Blind faith that these claims weren’t embellished, forged or even written as metaphors. You have blind faith that the church is interpreting scripture correctly.

I have expounded the reasons why I believe. You call yourself a Catholic, why do you believe?

If you can’t explain why you believe, then it is you who suffer from blind faith.

I have no interest in Islam and I am not an Islamic apologist.

Thats obvious.

However, I can’t just stand by while you make such absurd claims against another example of blind faith.

Apparently you are hurt because you didn’t realize the extent of Christian evidence to support our claims. It is truly sad, that upon discovering the truth, you respond with antipathy instead of joy.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

True, no one saw the burning bush with Moses, but:

Aaron was also an instrument of God working closely with Moses to free Israel from Egypt.

Muhamed had no such help or witness.

Mohamed and allah performed no such signs.

Regardless, I personally do not dispute Muhamed had an experience at Hira. I absolutely dispute who that spirit was because Mohamed did not know as noted by the hadith. You speak of common sense with regard to the real contradictions regarding the Qurans creation of man being nothing, dust, clay or blood, but do not use your common sense when considering:
1.) the spirit never identified itself to Mohamed
2.) Mohamed admits the revelations/visitations stopped for years after the first one
3.) not one other person ever saw or heard anything that Mohamed did so Mohamed is the only source
4.) what Mohamed/allah said is factually and characteristicly wrong of accepted history and the known nature of God

I accept the first visitation to Mohamed was demonic not angelic because the fruits of that influence are contrary what I accept as real Angelic experiences that herald the call of Abraham, the establishment of Mosaic Law, and the words to Mary regarding Jesus.

Common sense would tell a reasonable rational person that the Cause of Allah is in opposition the Good News. They are not complimentary nor are they successive messeges. Atheists may reasonably conclude both are false by the lack of physical evidence all spiritual visitations are hindered by, but those who do believe in God and the spirit world conclude both cannot be true. It is why Islam rejects what the OT and NT say, because it is total illogic for them all to be valid- they cannot be.

Excellent response Versi!

 

[paarsurrey]

In other words, your belief in Mohammed’s claim is based on blind faith.

Why do I need to establish anything from the Bible? The fact that Mohammed could not verify his vision is an Islamic problem.

Hi

I mentioned that the inner evidence of a revelation of a ProphetMessenger ( I don’t mention any name, I keep it open for anybody ) or its subject matter could be an evidence, e.g. if it consists of a prophecy and the prophecy is later fulfilled that would be an external witnessing that the Pophet was a truthful ProphetMessenger, this is a principled stance as I have not mentioned any name, it is general.It won’t be a blind faith. Do you agree? I think you agree. If you disagree;why?

Thanks

 

[Peregrino]

In addition, the various Scripture manuscripts from various countries have all been substantiated to within 99% accuracy.

Before I criticize this statement, I would like to make sure I understand what you are trying to say. Could you explain it more and provide evidence for your assertion please.

You present yourself as a Catholic. Yet your demeanor in these messages is one of a skeptic.

Speak for yourself. I was formerly an atheist. I believe Christianity because it has the verifiable evidence which even atheists can’t produce. No other religion on this earth can produce the volumes of evidence that the Catholic Church provides.

I do speak for myself. I also was a former atheist. I have absolutely no idea why I believe in God. I just do. I happen to worship within the catholic church for reasons I won’t go into here. Faith is the most important thing I have. However, I understand that faith is exactly that. As a form of epistemology it is extremely subjective.

The “evidence” you like to quote wouldn’t convince most scientific and empirically minded atheists. It didn’t convince me. The sort of “evidence” you have provided had no effect on me when I was an atheist. Faith is a matter of grace IMHO. I don’t believe that those without faith are any worse off than those with faith as long as they live their lives well. I was the same person prior to my conversion that I am now, except I believe in something that can’t be proven. Perhaps I am crazy, I am willing to accept this!!!

You claim Muhammed didn’t speak with the angel Gabriel. Were he here today he couldn’t prove it to you anymore than you could prove that he didn’t. Catholics believe that Mary spoke to Gabriel. Same situation. Totally unprovable either way.

For me, faith is a simple matter of living with the tension of not knowing for sure. I think it is this simple dimesion of trust that is the most rewarding. Please be charitable and allow this dimesion to people of other faiths. Fighting about who is really real, Santa Claus or Easter Bunny, does nothing but create strife. For all we know in an objective manner, we are all deluded. That is why it is called faith.

There is a story about a rabbi who was once asked by a disciple about heretics such as atheists. The rabbi said that heresy is very powerful and can be a good thing. When someone is confronted by someone in need, the believer should act as though God doesn’t exist and take it upon themselves to provide and care for that person as though they were God. I have butchered this story but provided the essence.

 

[paarsurrey]

True, no one saw the burning bush with Moses, but:
Aaron was also an instrument of God working closely with Moses to free Israel from Egypt.

Hi

I think you have accepted my logical suggestion that the messager revealed on a ProphetMessenger, its subject matter testifies that it has been revealed by GodAllahYHWH or not.
In your example of Moses, when the message was revealed on Moses, there was no other human witness on the moutn, but God gave Moses certain signs. Aaron was also informed by God to meet Moses in the desert, so the messages, as also the counter matching of the things became external witnessing:

Exodus 4: 27 The LORD said to Aaron, “Go into the desert to meet Moses.” So he met Moses at the mountain of God and kissed him. 28 Then Moses told Aaron everything the LORD had sent him to say, and also about all the miraculous signs he had commanded him to perform.

So, in this way we could arrive at and work out principles that could witness, this won’t be a blind faith, as it would be the principled found with a little unbiased research that would guide us. If you agree we all could proceed further. I think you agree. Don’t you?

Thanks

 

[hamba2han]

Do muslims believe that satan is NOT a fallen angel? Is Satan a valid (i.e. good) angel in islam? That would explain a lot.

Islam teaches that Satan is a jinn, not a fallen angel.

Angels are creatures made from light and they can only do what is commanded by their Creator and there is no such thing as an angel who later turns evil.

The jinn on the other hand are made from a smokeless flame of fire and just like humankind, some of them are good and God-fearing and they obey the commandments of their Creator whereas the not so good and evil among them do not.

 

[De_Maria]

Hi

I mentioned that the inner evidence of a revelation of a ProphetMessenger ( I don’t mention any name, I keep it open for anybody ) or its subject matter could be an evidence, e.g. if it consists of a prophecy and the prophecy is later fulfilled that would be an external witnessing that the Pophet was a truthful ProphetMessenger, this is a principled stance as I have not mentioned any name, it is general.It won’t be a blind faith. Do you agree? I think you agree. If you disagree;why?

Thanks

You are saying that the Muhammad predicted some future event which came true, is that it? Provide the evidence. Then we can compare it to Jesus’ predictions and see if it even casts a shadow.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Before I criticize this statement, I would like to make sure I understand what you are trying to say. Could you explain it more and provide evidence for your assertion please.

I do speak for myself. I also was a former atheist. I have absolutely no idea why I believe in God. I just do. I happen to worship within the catholic church for reasons I won’t go into here. Faith is the most important thing I have. However, I understand that faith is exactly that. As a form of epistemology it is extremely subjective.

The “evidence” you like to quote wouldn’t convince most scientific and empirically minded atheists. It didn’t convince me. The sort of “evidence” you have provided had no effect on me when I was an atheist. Faith is a matter of grace IMHO. I don’t believe that those without faith are any worse off than those with faith as long as they live their lives well. I was the same person prior to my conversion that I am now, except I believe in something that can’t be proven. Perhaps I am crazy, I am willing to accept this!!!

You claim Muhammed didn’t speak with the angel Gabriel. Were he here today he couldn’t prove it to you anymore than you could prove that he didn’t. Catholics believe that Mary spoke to Gabriel. Same situation. Totally unprovable either way.

For me, faith is a simple matter of living with the tension of not knowing for sure. I think it is this simple dimesion of trust that is the most rewarding. Please be charitable and allow this dimesion to people of other faiths. Fighting about who is really real, Santa Claus or Easter Bunny, does nothing but create strife. For all we know in an objective manner, we are all deluded. That is why it is called faith.

There is a story about a rabbi who was once asked by a disciple about heretics such as atheists. The rabbi said that heresy is very powerful and can be a good thing. When someone is confronted by someone in need, the believer should act as though God doesn’t exist and take it upon themselves to provide and care for that person as though they were God. I have butchered this story but provided the essence.

Certainly, but that is beyond the scope of this thread. See me here. forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2707549#post2707549

 

[De_Maria]

Islam teaches that Satan is a jinn, not a fallen angel.

YUSUFALI: Behold! We said to the angels, “Bow down to Adam”: They bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And they are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers!
PICKTHAL: And (remember) when We said unto the angels: Fall prostrate before Adam, and they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He was of the jinn, so he rebelled against his Lord’s command. Will ye choose him and his seed for your protecting friends instead of Me, when they are an enemy unto you? Calamitous is the exchange for evil-doers.
SHAKIR: And when We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam; they made obeisance but Iblis (did it not). He was of the jinn, so he transgressed the commandment of his Lord. What! would you then take him and his offspring for friends rather than Me, and they are your enemies? Evil is (this) change for the unjust.

Note how the Lord ordered the Angels to bow, but Iblis did not. Note that Iblis is a type of angel called a jinn. After this point, he was a fallen angel.

Angels are creatures made from light and they can only do what is commanded by their Creator and there is no such thing as an angel who later turns evil.

The jinn on the other hand are made from a smokeless flame of fire and just like humankind, some of them are good and God-fearing and they obey the commandments of their Creator whereas the not so good and evil among them do not.

Apparently, Mohammed contradicted himself, yet again.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Booklover]

Islam teaches that Satan is a jinn, not a fallen angel.

Angels are creatures made from light and they can only do what is commanded by their Creator and there is no such thing as an angel who later turns evil.

The jinn on the other hand are made from a smokeless flame of fire and just like humankind, some of them are good and God-fearing and they obey the commandments of their Creator whereas the not so good and evil among them do not.

The Fall of the Angels

391 Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy. Scripture and the Church’s Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called “Satan” or the “devil”. The Church teaches that Satan was at first a good angel, made by God: “the devil and the other demons wre indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing.”

392 Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels. This “fall” consists in the free choice of these created spirits who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter’s words to our first parents: “You will be like God.” The devil “has sinned from the beginning”; he is a liar and the father of lies.

393 It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the divine mercy, that makes the angels’ sin unforgivable. “There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death.”

394 Scripture witnesses to the disastrous influence of the one Jesus calls “a murderer from the beginning,” who would even try to divert Jesus form the mission received from his Father. “The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.” In its consequences the gravest of these works was the mendacious seduction that led men to disobey God.

395 The power of Satan is, nonetheless, not infinite. He is only a creature, powerful from the fact the he is pure spirit, but still a creature. he cannot prevent the builing up of God’s reign. Although Satan may act in the world out of hatred for God and his kingdom in Jesus Christ, and although his action may cause grave injuries - of a spiritual nature and, indirectly, even of a physical nature - to each man and to society, the action is permitted by divine providence which with strength and gentleness guides human and cosmic history. It is a great mystery that providence should permit diabolical activity, but “we know that in everything God works for good with those who love him.”

Vickie

 

[hamba2han]

YUSUFALI: Behold! We said to the angels, “Bow down to Adam”: They bowed down except Iblis. He was one of the Jinns, and he broke the Command of his Lord. Will ye then take him and his progeny as protectors rather than Me? And they are enemies to you! Evil would be the exchange for the wrong-doers!
PICKTHAL: And (remember) when We said unto the angels: Fall prostrate before Adam, and they fell prostrate, all save Iblis. He was of the jinn, so he rebelled against his Lord’s command. Will ye choose him and his seed for your protecting friends instead of Me, when they are an enemy unto you? Calamitous is the exchange for evil-doers.
SHAKIR: And when We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam; they made obeisance but Iblis (did it not). He was of the jinn, so he transgressed the commandment of his Lord. What! would you then take him and his offspring for friends rather than Me, and they are your enemies? Evil is (this) change for the unjust.

Note how the Lord ordered the Angels to bow, but Iblis did not. Note that Iblis is a type of angel called a jinn. After this point, he was a fallen angel.

Apparently, Mohammed contradicted himself, yet again.

Sincerely,

De Maria

Arabic Rule Of 'Tagleeb’

The English translation of the first part of the verse ‘We said to the angels bow down to Adam: they bowed down except Iblis’, gives us the impression that Iblis was an angel. The Qur’an was revealed in Arabic. In Arabic grammar there is a rule known as Tagleeb, according to which, if the majority is addressed, even the minority is included. If for example, I address a class containing 100 students of whom 99 are boys and one is a girl, and if I say in Arabic that the boys should stand up, it includes the girl as well. I need not mention her separately.

Similarly in the Qur’an, when Allah addressed the angels, even Iblis was present, but it is not required that he be mentioned separately. Therefore according to that sentence Iblis may be an angel or may not be an angel, but we come to know from Surah Al Kahf chapter 18 verse 50 that Iblis was a Jinn. No where does the Qur’an say Iblis was an angel. Therefore there is no contradiction in the Qur’an.

This is a good example of the sort of misconception which often arises when referring to only the translation of the Qur’an and not considering such things as the rules of grammar used in the Arabic language.

 

[De_Maria]

Arabic Rule Of 'Tagleeb’

The English translation of the first part of the verse ‘We said to the angels bow down to Adam: they bowed down except Iblis’, gives us the impression that Iblis was an angel. The Qur’an was revealed in Arabic. In Arabic grammar there is a rule known as Tagleeb, according to which, if the majority is addressed, even the minority is included. If for example, I address a class containing 100 students of whom 99 are boys and one is a girl, and if I say in Arabic that the boys should stand up, it includes the girl as well. I need not mention her separately.

Similarly in the Qur’an, when Allah addressed the angels, even Iblis was present, but it is not required that he be mentioned separately. Therefore according to that sentence Iblis may be an angel or may not be an angel, but we come to know from Surah Al Kahf chapter 18 verse 50 that Iblis was a Jinn. No where does the Qur’an say Iblis was an angel. Therefore there is no contradiction in the Qur’an.

This is a good example of the sort of misconception which often arises when referring to only the translation of the Qur’an and not considering such things as the rules of grammar used in the Arabic language.

This Muslim website contradicts you:
submission.org/satan/jinn.html

*** Jinns by definition are fallen angel (18:50) and are descendants of Satan.** The majority (disbelievers among them) constantly promote Satan’s point of view. God tells us in so many verses that Satan is our ardent enemy -2:208, 6:142, etc. Satan has powers (obviously given by God) and can definitely enforce these if we choose him as our master or Lord. With his powers Satan is capable of doing things which would cause us to go astray and which will surely lead us to Hell. Actually Satan has no power over the believers. The people give Satan power by not choosing God as our Lord and Master. See 16:100 - His power is limited to those who choose him as their master, those who choose him as their god.

*Here’s another Islamic website:
answering-christianity.com/satan.htm

• Is Satan in Islam the same as Satan in the Bible?
  **
  No he is not. The Satan of Islam was a “Jinn”, created from fire as all Jinns were and still are. Angels were and still are created from light. While Angels and Jinns are considered “Angels” in Islam, because they were created from the same material (fire is light, and light is fire), but Jinns are lower than the Angels, because Jinns are like humans; they do sin, while the Angels are perfect and Sinless. The similarity between Angels and Jinns is like the similarity between humans and animals. Created from almost the same material, but two different WORLDS. We also have “human-angels” V.S. evil and bad ones.

That is what happens when you don’t have a central authority to define your doctrines. The Catholic Church has such a central authority which God provided in His Wisdom.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[hamba2han]

That is what happens when you don’t have a central authority to define your doctrines. The Catholic Church has such a central authority which God provided in His Wisdom.

You have surely got to be kidding.

There is not one Christian in the world, no priest, pastor, minister, bishop or even the Pope, who can adequately define the doctrine of the Trinity without first transforming themselves into mental contortionists.

 

[George_Waters]

You have surely got to be kidding.

There is not one Christian in the world, no priest, pastor, minister, bishop or even the Pope, who can adequately define the doctrine of the Trinity without first transforming themselves into mental contortionists.

And this has what to do with the fact that two oft quoted Muslim websites define angels and jinns diffrently than you? Can you “adequately define” why if there is only one Islam Muslims have a vast number of interpretations? When you find your position undefendable attack, eh? Old trick in war and a very tired trick here. Similar to the all to typical “quickly change the subject” tactic used by Muslim apologist sooo often.