Did Mohammed see an angel?

[thedavidwilson]

You have surely got to be kidding.

There is not one Christian in the world, no priest, pastor, minister, bishop or even the Pope, who can adequately define the doctrine of the Trinity without first transforming themselves into mental contortionists.

The Trinity is a sacred mystery. A mystery is something that you can never know fully but that does not mean you cannot nothing about it. The Pope and hopefully any Catholic can explain what has been revealed to us by scripture and sacred tradition. Us humans cannot no fully explain or understand the Trinity no more than we can fully understand/exaplin God, because the Trinity is God. Their full meaning is beyond our comprehension. God Bless!

 

[snowfly]

Did Mohammed see an angel? If so, how did he prove it?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Maybe, but not a Heavenly one, only leaves another choice.

 

[George_Waters]

The Trinity is a sacred mystery. A mystery is something that you can never know fully but that does not mean you cannot nothing about it. The Pope and hopefully any Catholic can explain what has been revealed to us by scripture and sacred tradition. Us humans cannot no fully explain or understand the Trinity no more than we can fully understand/exaplin God, because the Trinity is God. Their full meaning is beyond our comprehension. God Bless!

Good answer!

 

[thedavidwilson]

Good answer!

Thanks. Next time I will do it minus the typos!

 

[paarsurrey]

You are saying that the Muhammad predicted some future event which came true, is that it? Provide the evidence. Then we can compare it to Jesus’ predictions and see if it even casts a shadow.
Sincerely,
De Maria

Hi

Please come out of your blind thinking. I did not mention name of Muhammad in my post, we should first arrive at and agree with certain principles , then we can discuss specific cases.

Now we take as an example the account of Noah, he received a revelation from GodAllahYHWH, please read in Genesis. Now when he received the revelation, there was none to witness that revelation. The revelation was that he should make an arch. Some people believed in Noah that he received revelation from God, we should see as to what made them believe that Noah was truthful and they accepted him as a DivineGuide. This way we could proceed bit by bit toward the truth . Do you agree or you would remain on your blind thinking. I think you agree. Don’t you ?

Thanks

 

[Calbreese]

Angels help God steer His creation. This founder (Mohammed) of the great third Abrahamic Religion, may have had his finest Revelation during his ascension dream. It is best told by Moslems, a good version is at Turkey.com, religion, Islam, Mohammed, the Ascension. People, please do not judge people of other religions. On Judgment Day (REV 19:14…) every eye will see, and be judged.
His Emminence Cardinal Levada is correct in His tolerance, acceptance and wisdom of Islam. He understands eternal unchanging Truth. Please be concerned with your own Soul’s destiny…how many rosarys have you said today?

 

[Aramis]

lol…

Are you kidding? I won’t waste my time going through each of these other than to say at least Mohammed wrote something down. We don’t have any evidence that Jesus put anything in writing…

Your zeal for the faith is admirable, however, attacking others on the “evidentiary” foundation of their faith is not, given that our “evidentiary” foundation is just as open to empirical critique.

Mohammed wrote nothing. He was an illiterate savage.

Qu’ran means “recitation”…

It was supposedly compiled by the muslims reciting the words of Mohammed (May God have mercy upon Him) before scribes well after his death (several years); those bits corroborated by three or more muslim eye-witnesses were compiled into the Qu’ran. Supposedly, it was word-for-word recitation that was required. (Not a surprising feat for the illiterate cultures to be able to do. Alaska Native Storytellers can often tell a story word for word after one hearing with intent to do so…)

Due to repetition effects, we have no real testament of Mohammed’s beliefs, only what his followers remembered, be it right or wrong.

Now, it’s entirely possible that the Devil affected the scribes or the reciters of the recitation…

The Qu’ran is a second-hand source of Mohammed, heresay. The writing of scribes based upon people reciting what Mohammed claimed to have been told. Worse, the sources are completely anonymous.

 

[snowfly]

You claim Muhammed didn’t speak with the angel Gabriel. Were he here today he couldn’t prove it to you anymore than you could prove that he didn’t. Catholics believe that Mary spoke to Gabriel. Same situation. Totally unprovable either way.

Well we have a baby born a few months later, the Saviour of the world.

We have His predictions that He would destroy the Temple and raise it up in three days, He did.

Many witnesses observed the dead rising, the blind seeing, the dumb speak, the lame walking, and the demons fleeing.

So we have many pointers to the truth in revelation from the Old Testament coming through in the New.

The Angel told Mary that she would conceive a son, who would be named Jesus, according to many witnesses this happened, so it’s safe to assume that since we Catholics believe this to be true, then obviously Mary is telling the truth.

Even Simeon the old man in the Temple knew who Jesus was, the promise of a Saviour was given many years before, Mary knew this too,

Even Elizabeth knew this in her saying, "how can this be that the mother of my lord should come to me ?

Even the three wise men knew, as the were guided by a star to the place of His birth.

**
Anyway can you answer, what stands out in Mohammed’s life after the alleged angel appeared to him ? what good did he do after this revelation, imagine your trying to convince me.**

Jesus said that those that live by the sword shall die by it, a totally opposite view to Mohammed’s.

lol…

Are you kidding? I won’t waste my time going through each of these other than to say at least** Mohammed wrote something down.** We don’t have any evidence that Jesus put anything in writing…

Another miracle since Mohammed was illiterate.

 

[George_Waters]

Please come out of your blind thinking.

As you constantly use the above line yet refuse to answer even simple yes or no questions without pasting volumes of one-sided information you copied from others I am forced to conclude that it is you who are trapped in blind thinking. This seems all to typical of many Muslims posters here. Only Muslims can clearly judge Islam and only Muslims can apparantly judge everybody else as well! Please come out of it so we may discuss things as intelligent individuals!

 

[paarsurrey]

As you constantly use the above line yet refuse to answer even simple yes or no questions without pasting volumes of one-sided information you copied from others I am forced to conclude that it is you who are trapped in blind thinking. This seems all to typical of many Muslims posters here. Only Muslims can clearly judge Islam and only Muslims can apparantly judge everybody else as well! Please come out of it so we may discuss things as intelligent individuals!

Hi

Thank you.

May GodAllahYHWH bless you!

 

[George_Waters]

Hi

Thank you.

May GodAllahYHWH bless you!

You are welcome!

 

[De_Maria]

You have surely got to be kidding.

There is not one Christian in the world, no priest, pastor, minister, bishop or even the Pope, who can adequately define the doctrine of the Trinity without first transforming themselves into mental contortionists.

Wrong. All we have to do is turn to the Catechism:

**237 **The Trinity is a mystery of faith in the strict sense, one of the “mysteries that are hidden in God, which can never be known unless they are revealed by God”. To be sure, God has left traces of his Trinitarian being in his work of creation and in his Revelation throughout the Old Testament. But his inmost Being as Holy Trinity is a mystery that is inaccessible to reason alone or even to Israel’s faith before the Incarnation of God’s Son and the sending of the Holy Spirit.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s2c1p2.htm#237

On the other hand, Muslims turn themselves into contortionists trying to explain why Allah refers to Himself as We whilst maintaining that We is one.

Bottom line is, you’ve been proven wrong by your own fellows.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Hi

Please come out of your blind thinking.

Blind thinking? I beg to differ. I believe my thinking is crystal clear.

On the other hand, you have yet to explain why you believe the unsubstantiated claims of a 7th century bedouin.

I did not mention name of Muhammad in my post, we should first arrive at and agree with certain principles , then we can discuss specific cases.

But I did. Muhammad is responsible for the Quran and it is Muhammad and his visions that are the subject of this thread.

Now we take as an example the account of Noah, he received a revelation from GodAllahYHWH, please read in Genesis. Now when he received the revelation, there was none to witness that revelation. The revelation was that he should make an arch. Some people believed in Noah that he received revelation from God,

Really? Who? The only ones who believed were Noah and his family. Those who did not believe drowned. And Noah’s family were fellow witnesses of the flood.

But, in fact, there is no evidence that Noah wrote down the account of the flood. Moses did. And we believe Moses because of the miracles performed by God through him and because His miracles were witnesed by the entire Jewish community, As they also witnessed the Pillar of Fire and Pillar of Cloud and the Rock which followe them in the desert.

we should see as to what made them believe that Noah was truthful and they accepted him as a DivineGuide.

Do you have another version of the account of the Flood? Or are you confusing Noah with another prophet?

Recount your evidence. Lets see what you have to say.

This way we could proceed bit by bit toward the truth .

I am firmly entrenched in the Fullness of Truth. The Catholic Church presents that Truth which is Jesus Christ Our Lord and Our God. I invite you to study Her doctrines to arrive at the same Truth.

Do you agree or you would remain on your blind thinking. I think you agree. Don’t you ?

Thanks

I

I don’t agree with your characterization of my thinking. But I will hear you out as that might lead you into the light.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[snowfly]

You have surely got to be kidding.

There is not one Christian in the world, no priest, pastor, minister, bishop or even the Pope, who can adequately define the doctrine of the Trinity without first transforming themselves into mental contortionists.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[De_Maria]

As I’ll be leaving for the next eight days, I’d like to sum up what I believe has become crystal clear in this thread:

1. Islamic belief in the truth of the Quran is based upon blind faith.
2. Evidence shows that Mohammed is the sole source of the information in the Quran before he died.
3. Evidence also shows that Mohammed’s original version of the Quran was burned by Muslims and another took its place.
4. Since the original was burned, there is no way to substantiate that the current version is the same as the original.

In contrast to Christianity:

1. Jesus revealed Himself not a book.
2. Jesus life was witnessed by His Apostles and disciples. Four of which wrote and attested to His life and teachings in the Gospels.
3. Jesus established a Church.
4. Jesus gave the Church the authority to teach His Gospel and make disciples of the world.
5. It is this Church which canonized the Scriptures.
6. The Church has preserved the Scriptures from antiquity and any that have been lost have been lost to the ravages of time, not due to intentional burning.
7. This Church is the Catholic Church.

I believe it is obvious which Religion has the over abundance of verifiable evidence.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Aramis]

1. Evidence shows that Mohammed is the sole source of the information in the Quran before he died.
2. Evidence also shows that Mohammed’s original version of the Quran was burned by Muslims and another took its place.
3. Since the original was burned, there is no way to substantiate that the current version is the same as the original.

Not to be pro-muslim (i’m not), but what was burned was not Mohammed’s writing, but the orginal scribal notes taken from the interviews, after producing the final document. In short, the collected sayings.

Using that as a basis for attack is like attacking a newspaper for not archiving the field notes of the reporters.

 

[paarsurrey]

Not to be pro-muslim (i’m not), but what was burned was not Mohammed’s writing, but the orginal scribal notes taken from the interviews, after producing the final document. In short, the collected sayings.

Using that as a basis for attack is like attacking a newspaper for not archiving the field notes of the reporters.

Hi

I agree with you and appreciate your truthful answer.

This was done when the primary source the verbal memorization source with its system, which is still working, was intact.

Thanks

 

[De_Maria]

Not to be pro-muslim (i’m not),

No problem, we should strive to be fair.

but what was burned was not Mohammed’s writing,

According to Muslims, Mohammed couldn’t write.

but the orginal scribal notes taken from the interviews,

Correct.

Lets review.

1. No one can corroborate that Mohammed saw an angel. It is only Mohammed’s word. He is the sole witness.
2. Scribes took down what Mohammed told them had been revealed to him.
3. Mohammed died. The scribal writings had never been compiled into a book.
4. Another Muslim claimed to have the most complete Quran and ordered the scribal writings burned.
   answering-christianity.com/quran/other_books.htm
5. As a result, no one today can confirm that it was actually the most complete Quran.
6. No one can confirm that today’s Quran records Mohammed’s words.
7. The man who ordered the Quran burnt must have been a very powerful and influential man. Powerful enough to have every version of the Quran burned except his own.

after producing the final document.

That can’t be proven.

In short, the collected sayings.

Whose collected sayings? No one today can prove that those are Mohammed’s sayings.

Using that as a basis for attack is like attacking a newspaper for not archiving the field notes of the reporters.

Not exactly. Responsible newspaper reporters keep their notes
for a reasonable period of time depending on the importance of the story.

However, you are comparing apples and organges. No one claims that newspaper notes are the Word of God, do they?

If you had taken notes which were supposed to be the revelation from God through an angel for the salvation of the world, would you keep your notes or destroy them?

So, in fact, it seems to me, that burning the original writings which were supposed to be the Word of God for the world, was truly irresponsible.

But that is just me. Perhaps another person could comment.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[De_Maria]

Hi

I agree with you and appreciate your truthful answer.

This was done when the primary source the verbal memorization source with its system, which is still working, was intact.

Thanks

Yes. But what did they memorize?

There is no proof that they memorized the angel’s words because no one else saw or heard the angel.

There is no proof that they memorized Mohammed’s words because the originals dictated by Mohammed were destroyed.

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[Aramis]

1. Scribes took down what Mohammed told them had been revealed to him.
2. Mohammed died. The scribal writings had never been compiled into a book.
3. Another Muslim claimed to have the most complete Quran and ordered the scribal writings burned.
   answering-christianity.co…ther_books.htm

Your timeline is wrong.

2 Mohammed dies

3 Scribes collect from witnesses their recitations. Those with three independent relevations were compiled into a single sura

4 After compiling suras into the document, they (the scribes) burned their OWN notes. THe head of the scribes promulgates their version, the Recitation, over the various bits that others had collected.