Did Mohammed see an angel?

[Rodrigo_Bivar]

The real timeline:

1. Muhammad recites verses - some of which were written down in scraps of bone, leather, parchment, leaves etc.
2. Muhammad dies.
3. Scribes have their own versions which they had compiled during Muhammad’s lifetime.
4. Abu Bakr ordered Zayd bin Thabit, a junior scribe, to compile a copy, on the advise of Umar. On Abu Bakr’s death, this copy was given to Hafsa, one of Muhammad’s wives and the daughter of Umar.
5. At that time, there were many different versions of the Quran - with each of the major scribes having their own versions.
6. Uthman, the third caliph, ordered Zayd Ibn Thabit to compile a new version to put an end to the confusion caused by the many different versions. Zayd took back the Hafsa version which he had compiled and used that as his basis - adding new verses that were remembered by at least 2 different people. However, in some cases he added verses remembered by only one person.
7. Uthman ordered all the other versions to be burnt - on the typically benign and compassionate Islamic way of ‘pain of death’.
8. One of the most senior scribes refused to give up his own version saying that he had been with Muhammad the longest and was the most authoritative of the scribes. But he was flogged. Some say he died a few days after he was flogged on Uthman’s orders.

None of the scribes voluntarily burnt their versions as they all believed their version to be correct. Uthman had to use force to accomplish his order - hence the Quran we have today is called the “Uthmanic Recension”.

The hadiths contain evidence that the Quran is corrupted as it was compiled purely on the whims of Zayd ibn Thabit and Uthman. Many verses are missing. Some surahs are now shorter than they once were.

 

[paarsurrey]

There is no proof that they memorized Mohammed’s words because the originals dictated by Mohammed were destroyed.
De Maria

Hi

You have perhaps a wrong conception that Quran was revealed in a day or in a weak. It was revealed bit by bit in 23 years, it was committed to memory as soon as it was revealed on Muhammad and from him also by his companions in the first place, it did not depend on the writing of the text.

In Muhammad’s life, it was not destroyed, this exercise was done afterwards in the Caliphate of Usman (the third Caliph) when all the writings were collected together and a Master Written Document was prepared, it had nothing to do with the already memorized Quran by heart. The Secondary written Master Document was in conformity with the memorized one, having no discrepancy.

The Memorizing System on Quran, from hear to heart, is still continuing.
The written text without a least change is also available.

So there were two systems, both conforming to one another, and both systems are intact and working side by side even now.

Thanks

 

[Montalban]

At first Muhammed HAD NO FOLLOWERS so to whom did he recite?

 

[GOP]

Did Mohammed see an angel? If so, how did he prove it?

Sincerely,

De Maria

No.

 

[De_Maria]

Hi

You have perhaps a wrong conception that Quran was revealed in a day or in a weak. It was revealed bit by bit in 23 years, it was committed to memory as soon as it was revealed on Muhammad and from him also by his companions in the first place, it did not depend on the writing of the text.

Then why was it written at all? Obviously, it was written because memory fails. Therefore if the memory fails, there should be something written to which memory can be compared.

In Muhammad’s life, it was not destroyed, this exercise was done afterwards in the Caliphate of Usman (the third Caliph)

 

[swariffin]

Jesus’ life and miracles were witnessed and attested by His contemporaries.

De Maria

Jesus’ miracle was also documented by a non christian jew named Josephus. He was rather be a roman spy within Jewish community. He wrote his reports to Rome, and later, archeologist discovered his reports and documented in a book. I have never read it, but I saw it. May be the amazone.com sell it.

 

[Montalban]

BUMP

At first Muhammed HAD NO FOLLOWERS so to whom did he recite?

I’m still intrigued by this.

Muhammed has no followers. Apparently he’s an illiterate. He comes running down from the mountains saying “The angel of the Lord just spoke to me”

“Which lord?” his pagan relatives would ask firstly.

“The Lord of Abraham”

“What did he say?”

“I am the Lord of Arbaham”

“Ah-ha” his relatives would say “then it must be true!”

And they instantly believed him and decided to copy down the revelations, but they didn’t have parchment, so they used bones and rocks? Is that usual for Arabia?

Why’d they believe him?

 

[swariffin]

Well we have a baby born a few months later, the Saviour of the world.

We have His predictions that He would destroy the Temple and raise it up in three days, He did.

Many witnesses observed the dead rising, the blind seeing, the dumb speak, the lame walking, and the demons fleeing.

So we have many pointers to the truth in revelation from the Old Testament coming through in the New.

The Angel told Mary that she would conceive a son, who would be named Jesus, according to many witnesses this happened, so it’s safe to assume that since we Catholics believe this to be true, then obviously Mary is telling the truth.

Even Simeon the old man in the Temple knew who Jesus was, the promise of a Saviour was given many years before, Mary knew this too,

Even Elizabeth knew this in her saying, "how can this be that the mother of my lord should come to me ?

Even the three wise men knew, as the were guided by a star to the place of His birth.

**
Anyway can you answer, what stands out in Mohammed’s life after the alleged angel appeared to him ? what good did he do after this revelation, imagine your trying to convince me.**

Jesus said that those that live by the sword shall die by it, a totally opposite view to Mohammed’s.

Another miracle since Mohammed was illiterate.

Oh dear, these are good proves to me plus a third party report done by Josephus. But, unfortunately there is no mathematical formula nor statistical model. How can we explain the theology using scientific and empirical methods to non believer? These evidence are scientific to me already. Will my belief considered invalid for lack of mathematical or empirical model?

 

[Joseph_Alison]

Salaam De Maria;

Did Mohammed see an angel?

Yes he did.

If so, how did he prove it?

He did not and did not have to. Why? Because that event was irrelevant to those who believed in his message and followed him. In other words, they believed him not because he told them that he saw an Angel, but because of the message he invited them to. It is only when they heard his message and believed it that they believed also he saw the Angel, and not the other way around.
Muhammed (PHUH) never tried to use that event as a proof of his Prophet hood. In fact, many of those who believed in him never heard about the event of the Angel!

Even today, people don’t believe in Muhammed (PBUH) as a messenger of Allah (SWT) because he saw an Angel, absolutely not. They believe in him because of his message.

His message is his witness that he is a genuine Messenger of the Creator, not his vision of the Angel!

Jesus said to the Jews :
" It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
“I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me” John 8:17-19
Likewise, Muhammed (PBUH) saw the Angel, he was the first witness and Allah (SWT) is his second witness who sent him the revelation to strengthen him. Muhammed did not lie to the common people, how could he lie about the Creator!

Salaam.
Joseph.

 

[De_Maria]

Salaam De Maria;
Yes he did.

That is debatable.

He did not

Correct. He can’t prove and no Muslim can prove that Mohammed saw an angel.

and did not have to.

Yes he does. Unless you expect everyone to have blind faith in Mohammed. Or, unless he expected to force everyone to submit to his teachings regardless of the truth.

Why? Because that event was irrelevant to those who believed in his message and followed him.

Key words, “to those who believed”. But we don’t believe his message. It would go a long way to establish his credibility if you, a follower of Mohammed could produce some tangible evidence that he saw an angel. But all that Muslims ever produce as evidence is the Quran and it is riddled with error.

In other words, they believed him not because he told them that he saw an Angel, but because of the message he invited them to.

We aren’t that gullible.

It is only when they heard his message and believed it that they believed also he saw the Angel, and not the other way around.

In other words, Muslims have blind faith in Mohammed.

Muhammed (PHUH) never tried to use that event as a proof of his Prophet hood. In fact, many of those who believed in him never heard about the event of the Angel!

Many of them who heard him talk also said that he was crazy.

Even today, people don’t believe in Muhammed (PBUH) as a messenger of Allah (SWT) because he saw an Angel, absolutely not. They believe in him because of his message

His message is his witness that he is a genuine Messenger of the Creator, not his vision of the Angel!

I think you posted in the wrong thread. We have another thread revealing the errors of the Quran.

In this thread we ask for proof that Mohammed saw an angel. That is how the whole movement started and if no Muslim can prove that Mohammed saw an angel, why should we believe anything else.

Jesus said to the Jews :
" It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
“I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me” John 8:17-19
Likewise, Muhammed (PBUH) saw the Angel, he was the first witness and Allah (SWT) is his second witness who sent him the revelation to strengthen him. Muhammed did not lie to the common people, how could he lie about the Creator!

Sorry. No comparison. First of all, you are quoting from the New Testament. We have four eyewitness testimonies by contemporaries of Jesus Christ who lived with him and witnessed His miracles. They, in turn, witnessed the miracles of His followers.

Neither Mohammed nor his followers ever made any miracles. Mohammed claimed to see the angel but his followers never saw or heard such a thing.

So, the New Testament is reliable. It is witnessed and attested. So when the Gospel refers to Jesus Baptism when the Father said, “this is My Beloved Son” the Father bore witness to His Son before the multitude that followed St. John the Baptist.

So, no comparison. Mohammed has no evidence of his supposed supernatural revelation and the Quran contains error, so it isn’t evidence of anything but a confused mind.

Salaam.
Joseph.

Shalome,

Sincerely,

De Maria

 

[inJESUS]

Salaam De Maria;

Yes he did.
He did not and did not have to. Why? Because that event was irrelevant to those who believed in his message and followed him. In other words, they believed him not because he told them that he saw an Angel, but because of the message he invited them to. It is only when they heard his message and believed it that they believed also he saw the Angel, and not the other way around.
Muhammed (PHUH) never tried to use that event as a proof of his Prophet hood. In fact, many of those who believed in him never heard about the event of the Angel!

 

[Deconi]

but this applies to other religions now like Mormonism. Smith, like Muhammad, told people he saw an angel and he has followers. What is the difference between both?
.

 

[inJESUS]

So did Muhammad see an angel? well Muhammad used to talk to Jinn and spend time with Jinn. He even taught people that these jinn became Muslims.

Sahih Muslim Book 004, Number 0903

Dawud reported from 'Amir who said: I asked ‘Alqama if Ibn Mas’ud was present with the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) on the night of the Jinn (the night when the Holy Prophet met them). He (Ibn Mas’uad) said: No, but we were in the company of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) one night and we missed him. We searched for him in the valleys and the hills and said. He has either been taken away (by jinn) or has been secretly killed. He (the narrator) said. We spent the worst night which people could ever spend. When it was dawn we saw him coming from the side of Hiri’. He (the narrator) reported. We said: Messenger of Allah, we missed you and searched for you, but we could not find you and we spent the worst night which people could ever spend. He (the Holy Prophet) said: There came to me an inviter on behalf of the Jinn and I went along with him and recited to them the Qur’an. He (the narrator) said: He then went along with us and showed us their traces and traces of their embers. They (the Jinn) asked him (the Holy Prophet) about their provision and he said: Every bone on which the name of Allah is recited is your provision. The time it will fall in your hand it would be covered with flesh, and the dung of (the camels) is fodder for your animals. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Don’t perform istinja with these (things) for these are the food of your brothers (Jinn).

the guy said he spend a day with jinn. I believe Muhammad used to invoke bad spirits. We all know that bad spirits can trick you into believing they are angels sent from God. Of course Muslims will tell you : bad spirits do not teach you to believe in one God and be good and do charity. Correct but bad spirits confess there is one God yet tell you to have sex with what your “right hand possesses”, to have temporary marriages, to marry whoever you want because you’re a prophet, even if it is your adopted son’s wife, to kill those who oppose you, to deny the word of God as corrupt ecc, all this while giving good teachings as well…after all satan is not that stupid…there are plenty of people who invoke bad spirits and take orders from them yet teach about God.

 

[Strevel]

I do not believe so. However, I reaspect that others think he did.

 

[Booklover]

Salaam De Maria;
Yes he did.
He did not and did not have to. Why? Because that event was irrelevant to those who believed in his message and followed him. In other words, they believed him not because he told them that he saw an Angel, but because of the message he invited them to. It is only when they heard his message and believed it that they believed also he saw the Angel, and not the other way around.
Muhammed (PHUH) never tried to use that event as a proof of his Prophet hood. In fact, many of those who believed in him never heard about the event of the Angel!

Why did they accept him so quickly without any proof? Could it be because he promised them stolen booty and women from the raids he made on caravans? You seem to think that Muhammad lived among very pious people, while the reality is that he lived among some of the most barbaric people on the planet.

Even today, people don’t believe in Muhammed (PBUH) as a messenger of Allah (SWT) because he saw an Angel, absolutely not. They believe in him because of his message.

What message?? That there is only one God? We knew that already. What good thing did Muhammad bring to the world and how did Islam become a “universal” religion? Expansionism and agression plus again the enticement of stolen merchandise and women as sex slaves.

His message is his witness that he is a genuine Messenger of the Creator, not his vision of the Angel!

Again, what is the “sweet and gentle” message of Islam as Idris Tawfiq, the Catholic priest who embraced Islam calls it, though when asked what the message is, does not reply!

Likewise, Muhammed (PBUH) saw the Angel, he was the first witness and Allah (SWT) is his second witness who sent him the revelation to strengthen him. Muhammed did not lie to the common people, how could he lie about the Creator!

Salaam.
Joseph.

Muhammad endorsed lying to the unbelievers! How do you know that he didn’t lie to his followers as well?

Vickie

 

[dranzal]

Has anyone here ever heard an adequate response for the following problem?

IF

the quran is the WORD of ALLAH recorded word for word.

AND

ALLAH is all-knowing

WHY does he get Christian doctrines wrong when critiquing them?

IF the quran were really the word for word WORD of GOD HIMSELF, and HE wanted to CORRECT Christian doctrines in His WORD, isn’t it reasonable that HE should have been able to describe the “incorrect” doctrines accurately?

 

[Booklover]

Has anyone here ever heard an adequate response for the following problem?

IF

the quran is the WORD of ALLAH recorded word for word.

AND

ALLAH is all-knowing

WHY does he get Christian doctrines wrong when critiquing them?

IF the quran were really the word for word WORD of GOD HIMSELF, and HE wanted to CORRECT Christian doctrines in His WORD, isn’t it reasonable that HE should have been able to describe the “incorrect” doctrines accurately?

Exactly!

Vickie

 

[inJESUS]

Has anyone here ever heard an adequate response for the following problem?

IF

the quran is the WORD of ALLAH recorded word for word.

AND

ALLAH is all-knowing

WHY does he get Christian doctrines wrong when critiquing them?

IF the quran were really the word for word WORD of GOD HIMSELF, and HE wanted to CORRECT Christian doctrines in His WORD, isn’t it reasonable that HE should have been able to describe the “incorrect” doctrines accurately?

and what does Islam stand on? Bible corruption. For Islam to exist, the Word of God must be corrupt. A Muslim who says God’s Word cannot be corrupt is in deep trouble.

 

[Booklover]

Likewise, Muhammed (PBUH) saw the Angel, he was the first witness and Allah (SWT) is his second witness who sent him the revelation to strengthen him. Muhammed did not lie to the common people, how could he lie about the Creator!

Salaam.
Joseph.

Joseph, how do you know that Allah is his second witness?? Did anyone actually hear God stating this, as what happened at Jesus’ baptism and transfiguration? Was God ever heard to say something like: “This is my beloved Prophet, listen to him.”?? All the proof you have is that Muhammad stated that God said so.

Vickie

 

[Alhope]

1. Jesus life was witnessed by His Apostles and disciples. Four of which wrote and attested to His life and teachings in the Gospels.

Interesting to note that

The earliest Gospel is that of Mark’s which was written about 60-75 AD. Mark was the son of Barnabas’s sister. Matthew was a tax collector, a minor official who did not travel around with Jesus. Luke’s Gospel was written much later, and in fact, drawn from the same sources as Mark’s and Matthew’s. In Luke 1:2-3, you will learn that he was not an eyewitness, and the knowledge he gathered was from eyewitnesses, and not as words inspired by God. Luke was Paul’s physician, and like Paul, never met Jesus. By the way, Mark and Luke were not one of the 12 Apostles of Jesus as mentioned in Matthew 10:2-4?

The 12 Apostles are, the first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, the betrayer.

John’s Gospel is from a different source, and was written in about 100 AD.

Objectively, Catholics should also question the accuracy of these Gospels (Word of God) which were actually reports of men and manipulated by tyrants & interpreters.

The present four “gospels” of the New Testament (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) were imposed in the Council of Nicea 325 CE for political purposes under the auspices of the pagan Emperor Constantine, and not by Jesus. Constantine’s mind had not been enlightened either by study or by inspiration. He was a pagan, a tyrant and criminal who murdered his son, his wife and thousands of innocent individuals because of his lust for political power. Constantine ratified other decisions in the Nicene Creed such as the decision to call Christ “the Son of God, only begotten of the father.”

Literally, hundreds of gospels and religious writings were hidden from the people. Some of those writings were written by Jesus’ disciples, and many of them were eyewitness accounts of Jesus’ actions. The Nicea Council decided to destroy all gospels written in Hebrew, which resulted in the burning of nearly three hundred accounts. If these writings were not more authentic than the four present gospels, they were of equal authenticity. Some of them are still available such as the Gospel of Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermas which agree with the Quran. The Gospel of Barnabas, until now, is the only eyewitness account of the life and mission of Jesus.

Alhope