Did Moses and Abraham really exist?

[John_Hendrix]

Atheism , and for that matter , liberal Christianity , uses the argument from ignorance or the argument from silence to try and discredit the Bible. Atheism, and liberal theology, is fallacious thinking.

They start with the presupposition that the Bible is fiction and guilty until proven innocent. Take for instance the documentary hypothesis
It was predicated on the assumption evolution is true and ancient people were apelike and could not read and therefore Moses could not write so the Bible was made up hundreds of years later.
We have since found extra biblical evidence that people could read long before Moses but the argument does not go away.

The real question is can we trust the bible? If you need proof from outside of scripture you have bigger problems than being unsure of Moses and Abraham.

200 years ago the church compromised with atheistic assumptions on the age of the earth and just like the documentary hypothesis the basis of that interpretation has been overturned yet the argument remains. I am told that the Bible is not a science book as if man was more qualified to determine the truth of earth history than God. . Science books are out of date before they go to print. The Bible is the unchanging word of God.

There is plenty of information today to give laymen enough information to realize the version of earth history we are being sold as science is really highly biased opinion and anti-Christian dogma masquerading as science.

 

[joemccarron]

THE INTERPRETATION OF THE BIBLE IN THE CHURCH
by the Pontifical Biblical Commission makes for some interesting reading. Especially the part on Fundamentalist interpretation.
As this paragraph shows the Catholic position is to agree that the bible is inspired and inerrant but that we can use critical research to understand what the truths it is trying to convey are. Anyway, my take on it is unimportant. Here is the link and it discusses Fundementalism as point F about midway through.

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PBCINTER.htm#3

“Fundamentalism is right to insist on the divine inspiration of the Bible, the inerrancy of the word of God and other biblical truths included in its five fundamental points. But its way of presenting these truths is rooted in an ideology which is not biblical, whatever the proponents of this approach might say. For it demands an unshakable adherence to rigid doctrinal points of view and imposes, as the only source of teaching for Christian life and salvation, a reading of the Bible which rejects all questioning and any kind of critical research.”

I’m still learning a bit more about Catholic interpretation but so far, my take is this: we can ask questions and learn from critical research when we go about interpreting the bible. But once we get that interpretation (either form the church or if the church doesn’t address it our own understanding) we have no business questioning the message it reveals.

 

[John_Hendrix]

“Fundamentalism is right to insist on the divine inspiration of the Bible, the inerrancy of the word of God and other biblical truths included in its five fundamental points. But its way of presenting these truths is rooted in an ideology which is not biblical, whatever the proponents of this approach might say. For it demands an unshakable adherence to rigid doctrinal points of view and imposes, as the only source of teaching for Christian life and salvation, a reading of the Bible which rejects all questioning and any kind of critical research.”

I’m still learning a bit more about Catholic interpretation but so far, my take is this: we can ask questions and learn from critical research when we go about interpreting the bible. But once we get that interpretation (either form the church or if the church doesn’t address it our own understanding) we have no business questioning the message it reveals.

And just how is it not Biblical? The RCC would have considered anyone who doubted the existence of Abraham or Moses 200 years ago a heretic, and rightly so. The criticism of scripture is based on the supposition that it is a lie until proven guilty and then there must be a lie somewhere else. Not a word of scripture has ever been disproved. This however did not stop Benedict from claiming it had. The Big Bang is not a fact, Evolution is not a fact. The BB explains nothing of origins and contradicts the Bible. So to accept it as truth you have to say that the opinions of some scientist outweigh scripture. There are thousands of scientist, atheists included, who feel it is garbage science.
Evolution of pondscum to people is not a valid scientific theory, let alone a fact.

 

[John_Hendrix]

That is simply an atheist lie. No one ever pulled out a trilobite . Only a stupid person would believe someone would believe a story like that.Those tracks were discovered in the middle 19th century .

Please ban me Catholics are too stupid to remember to breathe,

 

[littleone]

I would like to mention that when a person has a “RELATIONSHIP” with Jesus, Our Father and or the Holy Spirit, you automaticly replace any doubt, about any thing to do with Jesus our Father or the Holy Spirit.
Reason is that you KNOW their existance because you become their place of abode.
You feel it, you are not able to understand all of what happens in your life all the time, because the Trinity uses you for their joy which fills you with PURE, un adultirated LOVE. responding to the need of God to have His people filled, helped, reborn, directed, guided etc.
You will smile over seemingly nothing, laugh, help others,have tears of sadness, of joy, of just being.

**:crying: :clapping: :sad_bye: :hug3: :harp: :flowers: **

 

[jean8]

Last night I was in a conversation with an atheist friend of mine and he told me that Moses and Abraham were mythological figures who never existed. According to him, there is no proof outside the Bible for the existence of Moses. He said that over the years archeologists have discovered very complete Egyptian records from the time when Moses supposedly existed and that those records never mention anything about Moses or the Exodus. Also according to him, Abraham was at best a composite of two or three different people and other than the Bible and the Quran there is no proof to support his existence either. When I asked him where he got this information he said that he works with a Catholic deacon and it all came from him.

So, what does the Catholic church teach about the historical existence of Moses and Abraham? Is there any mention of them outside the Bible? If anyone can point me to some information on this it would be much appreciated.

Thank you all and God bless.

OB,
Are you going to accept the word of an athiest or thr word of God?
God gave Moses the Ten Commandents. See Ex.20 get your Bible out and read it to your friend.
How is your faith? does everything have to be proven to you?
See rom.5:1-5 We are justified by FAITH! Eph.2:8-9

God bless,
jean8

 

[ObeyHim]

Jean8 – My faith is rock-solid. Faith, however, is a gift from God and not everyone is as blessed with it as you and I. My atheist friend is one of those people. He’s read the entire Bible and to him it is no different than a children’s storybook full of fairytales and myth. As followers of Christ we are called to evangelize the world and I believe that includes everyone – especially those who do not believe. Reading Exodus 20 to him (or any other atheist for that matter) and expecting him to believe it without question is not realistic. I need to follow Saint Peter’s advice in 1 Peter 3:15, “Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope.” Please re-read my question.

Bruno Schulz –There is a tremendous amount of non-Biblical support for the existence Jesus. So much so, in fact, that to doubt His historical existence would be to doubt the existence of anyone who ever lived that you didn’t personally know. My question was simply, ”What does the Catholic church teach about the historical existence of Moses and Abraham?” I ask the question because the Catholic church is the authoritative interpreter of the Bible and I need a rational line of reasoning to continue my conversation with my atheist friend.

Joemccarron – Thank you for the link to THE INTERPRETATION OF THE BIBLE IN THE CHURCH by the Pontifical Biblical Commission. This is exactly the kind of information I’m looking for. If you run across a faithful Catholic exegesis focused mostly on Genesis and Exodus please post a link to it.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**

He’s read the entire Bible and to him it is fairytales and myth

Well, many read the entire Bible and to them it remains a storybook. So what?! In the end it’ll be their problem. And for nothing in the world I’d want to be as alone they are in this life here. No God – it shivers me by the mere thought.

Jesus knew that many won’t believe. But then we know; God even doesn’t let everyone understand. Jesus reminded us on Isaiah’s word in John 12:39 - “……for this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere: “He has blinded their eyes and deadened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn - and I would heal them.” Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus’ glory and spoke about him.”

Moses is mentioned by Jesus very often, as in Mat 19:8 "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.”

Would Jesus have mentioned Moses so often – if Moses didn’t exist?! Jesus also mentioned Abraham who lived about 1,900 years before Moses, who lived around 1,250 years before Christ and Isaiah, who announced Jesus birth 700 years before Christ was born.

But there are people who even doubt if Jesus ever lived. They ought to doubt their own living, for they do not live, as they don’t have God. They kind of happen to sort of being kind of alive. But life – no, life they don’t have.

As I told that some atheist - he said: “Oh, I enjoy my life all-right!” Ok – they must enjoy it, it’s all they have! Believers have millions as much
**

 

[ASD]

there is no archeological proof for the existence of whole hosts of people and rulers who existed in antiquity, and whose existence is firmly taught in history and anthropology courses today. what is your point?…This is my field, history specifically history of documents, so I can attest the Hebrew Scripture meets the requirements in spades.

… the Catholic position is to agree that the bible is inspired and inerrant but that we can use critical research to understand what the truths it is trying to convey are.

I would like to mention that when a person has a “RELATIONSHIP” with Jesus, Our Father and or the Holy Spirit, you automaticly replace any doubt, about any thing to do with Jesus our Father or the Holy Spirit.

Will it be considered off-topic if I say this is the wrong topic?

What I mean is, I think that, from a certain point of view, it’s a wrong-headed question. In fact, in the end, I suspect it’s what the philosophers call a category mistake. At the very least, it’s barren. (I interpret the quoted passages above as suggesting roughly the same thing.)

Here’s my line of reasoning:

1. The Bible isn’t a modern science book, and it isn’t a modern history book. So, it doesn’t really make sense to read it the way we read science and history books.
2. Thus, it’s not profitable to ask science- or history-like questions: Is that really true?
3. The Bible is a collection of texts about God and man.
4. Therefore, it makes more sense to ask religious seeker-like questions: What is this text trying to teach us?

I don’t dispute puzzleannie’s statement that the Bible is actually a relatively good primary source. Nevertheless, I say it’s much better to focus on what joemccaron referred to: the truths it is trying to convey.

ASD​

Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**

it makes more sense to ask religious seeker-like questions: What is this text trying to teach us?

If someone who never heard of the almighty God in the Holy Trinity of God Father, the Son and Holy Spirit and he gets hold of a bible and reads it – just for curiosity, not knowing it’s the one and only divine “teaching-book”, he, if open hearted, will say:

Hear hear! Didn’t I always feel there’s a creating God who also keeps things going? Had otherwise the world not vanished in the usual way of celestial bodies? How come, that only here and nowhere else in the universe we know, is a planet of exactly the constellation we need to survive with it’s millions of accordances – to begin with at size, temperature, water, air and richness of soil?!

Didn’t I always wonder why I felt bad when I or others did wrong - and if I or they get away with it?!
Didn’t wrongdoing burden me and the world more and more?!

Aren’t those ever so calming, ever so convincing and liberating words?!

Isn’t this book nothing else but love?!
Doesn’t it tell nothing but faith, hope and love?!

What would be the sense of writing such opus, if it is not the mere truth, the full truth and nothing but the truth?!

This book is not just teaching me; it is the loving hand of God himself, reaching me!
Halleluja! Thank you dear God letting me have this!
**

 

[Christian_2012]

Last night I was in a conversation with an atheist friend of mine and he told me that Moses and Abraham were mythological figures who never existed. According to him, there is no proof outside the Bible for the existence of Moses. He said that over the years archeologists have discovered very complete Egyptian records from the time when Moses supposedly existed and that those records never mention anything about Moses or the Exodus. Also according to him, Abraham was at best a composite of two or three different people and other than the Bible and the Quran there is no proof to support his existence either. When I asked him where he got this information he said that he works with a Catholic deacon and it all came from him.

So, what does the Catholic church teach about the historical existence of Moses and Abraham? Is there any mention of them outside the Bible? If anyone can point me to some information on this it would be much appreciated.

Thank you all and God bless.

Dear ObeyHim

Yes, Moses, Abraham, and even Adam and Eve, there is historic evidence of their presence and stated their name in the closest historical documents at all a historic document before it is religious and so-called Old Testament and New Testament and the authenticity of this historical documents dating back due to their age, copy, spread all over the world billions of copies and translations that are in thousands each tone, language and manuscripts, which are tens of thousand in addition to that all the copy, whether legal or illegal there so can not any creature on earth, dropping a letter or a single point of them for ease of detection due to the presence of all the copies back to this historic document antique containing history of the ancient world unchallenged.

You have a historical argument of this paper is not without a history of the ancient world, how can you ask for evidence of historical and are closer and have a historical document known to the whole world!

Anyone who wants to be doubted authoritative historical named the Old Testament and New Testament should guide us to a close and authoritative historical document than what we have mentioned it and characterized it!

The Old Testament and New Testament is the essential reference for all religions and for historians, archaeologists and even Muslims themselves and all the world as well.

 

[littleone]

Dear ObeyHim

Yes, Moses, Abraham, and even Adam and Eve, there is historic evidence of their presence and stated their name in the closest historical documents at all a historic document before it is religious and so-calledThe Old Testament and New Testament is the essential reference for all religions and for historians, archaeologists and even Muslims themselves and all the world as well.

I live in New Zealand and am part Maori (the ethnic group). We know that there is a book that was writen here in the 1750s, and it is now in the Kairo museum and it tells of the story of how the tribe called Maori were part of a group of people who were enslaved by a King in a place called Egypt. The king died another took over and made them work harder making huge tombs that had a stair case coming to a point, the stair case pyrimids. Then came another king who made them make tombs straight up, the great pyrimids we see today. Then as they prayed to god a man came to take the people out of the clutches of the king.
Our elders tell us that the people wandered for 40 years and came to a place called Israel. The people were called the 12 tribes of Israel, and the Maori of New Zealand are one of them.
Even the people of the south pacific speak in history of this happening. And yet they have never been there, they speak of the clutches they were in, the ten plagues, the smoke on the mountain, the graven image they carved, the huge cracked rock water poored out from, the 72 palm trees etc etc. It is TRUE look at a DVD called “THE SEARCH FOR THE REAL MT SINAI” This DVD tells it all shows it for you to see.
Godbless
littleone.

 

[littleone]

Last night I was in a conversation with an atheist friend of mine and he told me that Moses and Abraham were mythological figures who never existed. According to him, there is no proof outside the Bible for the existence of Moses. He said that over the years archeologists have discovered very complete Egyptian records from the time when Moses supposedly existed and that those records never mention anything about Moses or the Exodus. Also according to him, Abraham was at best a composite of two or three different people and other than the Bible and the Quran there is no proof to support his existence either. When I asked him where he got this information he said that he works with a Catholic deacon and it all came from him.

So, what does the Catholic church teach about the historical existence of Moses and Abraham? Is there any mention of them outside the Bible? If anyone can point me to some information on this it would be much appreciated.

Thank you all and God bless.

Brother sadly to say MOST teachers in the Catholic church won’t tell you what you need other than “Jesus is the only information you need to get to heaven”.
Very sad however it is under the heading of “faith” There is a DVD that tells of a stone block in Kairo museum that tells of this happening. The Egyptians took Moses name from every pole because it didn’t suit them to have someone go against their ruleer as their “GOD”. I am a Maori from New Zealand our elders over the last 300 years tell of this happening and that they are one of the 12 tribes of Isreal. They could not even know this hstory or speak of it if they didn’t know of the story, since they didn’t have the ability to go to that place…It is true and you could look at the DVDs I have mentioned to others in this post. If you ask why the DVD’s are not so open to the public it is because the people of Arabia the Jews and Egyptians DON’T want Christianity to be portraid above their religian.
Peace, Godbless
littleone

 

[larsenl1]

Last night I was in a conversation with an atheist friend of mine and he told me that Moses and Abraham were mythological figures who never existed. According to him, there is no proof outside the Bible for the existence of Moses. He said that over the years archeologists have discovered very complete Egyptian records from the time when Moses supposedly existed and that those records never mention anything about Moses or the Exodus. Also according to him, Abraham was at best a composite of two or three different people and other than the Bible and the Quran there is no proof to support his existence either. When I asked him where he got this information he said that he works with a Catholic deacon and it all came from him.

So, what does the Catholic church teach about the historical existence of Moses and Abraham? Is there any mention of them outside the Bible? If anyone can point me to some information on this it would be much appreciated.

Thank you all and God bless.

I may get some flack for this, but The History Channel had a special about the 10 plagues and there is geological evidence that every plague actually occurred and in the order written in the Book of Exodus.

Mt. Vesuvius exploded like a bomb, a volcanic eruption worse than the ones in Iceland or Mt St. Helen’s.

Is there archeological evidence of Plato? No, just his writings have survived. Is there archeological evidence Atila the Hun? No, just stories about him have survived. No one doubts that Atila the Hun attacked Europe. But we don’t have his grave or DNA. Just reference to him in historical writing.

 

[littleone]

I may get some flack for this, but The History Channel had a special about the 10 plagues and there is geological evidence that every plague actually occurred and in the order written in the Book of Exodus.

**Hi, I think the information you are referring to is the DVD called “The Exodus Decoded” (JAMES CAMERON). I have it and it tells of the explosion of the volcano, the Iron or deep in the water of the sea, how the explosion brought up the Iron ore and how it turns the water to red colour, how it kills the fish creating a smell unbearable, driving out the frogs, killing the animals nearby, bringing locusts looking for food, the extreme amount of volcanic smoke mixed with sulphur reaches up into the sky where the heat and the cold meet and the water drops fall like fire burning as it hits the ground. The Egyptian eldest boy always slept on the bed near the floor, thus any person sleeping would sniff in the sulphuric acidic presence. The other boys slept anywhere, in lofts, up on the hay etc.
So this is called manipulating common situations. God knew that the volcano was about to explode, so he manipulated the whole setting with having Moses born when baby boys were killed and he taken to Phara’s daughter.
You need to also look at a DVD called “The search for the Real Mt. Sinai”. explorer series, Two American men climbed the real Mt Sinai, which is in Arabia as the Bible tells us in
Galatians 4 :25. "since SIAI is in Arabia. and is called Jabel Al Laws (mountain of laws) or Jable Musa ( Mountain of Moses).
Before they got to Sinai they went through the wilderness of Shur, at Marah to the bitter waters of Marah (Exodus 15: 23 the cave is Elijah went into is there at Sinai to (1Kings 19 :8 The Mountain is Burned and is still there as is seen in the DVD.( The search for…)
It is well worth buying the DVDs or going to a library to hire then study them. Youwill realise the truth. The Exodus decoded does not have the real Mt Sinai though and falls short when the searchers start relating that "The people couldn’t have come this or that way because it would have been to long a walk? with God guiding them anything can be done.

To end it …the real Mt Sinai IS NOT at St Catharins monistary, there is NO proof there **

Mt. Vesuvius exploded like a bomb, a volcanic eruption worse than the ones in Iceland or Mt St. Helen’s. Is there archaeological evidence of Plato? No, just his writings have survived. Is there archaeological evidence Attila the Hun? No, just stories about him have survived. No one doubts that Attila the Hun attacked Europe. But we don’t have his grave or DNA. Just reference to him in historical writing.

 

[littleone]

littleone:
Sorry Galatians says “since Sinai is in Arabia”
and look at where “Marah” is it’s in Arabia straight across from where the Jews crossed …on the water road that is still there today.
littleone

 

[larsenl1]

Hi, I think the information you are referring to is the DVD called “The Exodus Decoded” (JAMES CAMERON).

Yes I believe that is it. The animals died from Anthrax. Poisonous gas that was heavy killed the eldest who slept on the lower level. God does not have to obey the laws of physics, but since He created them, He can use them to teach us.

Anyway, I totally believe that Moses is a real person and the Exodus is a true documentation of an event in history.

 

[mrtruthandlife]

It would not matter to me if the Bible were filled with lies and contradictions. I didn’t become Christian because I read a book, I read a book because I became Christian. My God existed before the first book was ever written: Before the Bible was, “I Am”. I worship God, not a book, I worship God, not a piece of sliced wood with squiggly ink marks on it. …though the Bible is the # 1 Best Seller of All Time for a good reason and if you’ve never read it, I highly recommend grinding through it from cover to cover as fast as you can.

 

[littleone]

It would not matter to me if the Bible were filled with lies and contradictions. I didn’t become Christian because I read a book, I read a book because I became Christian. My God existed before the first book was ever written: Before the Bible was, “I Am”. I worship God, not a book, I worship God, not a piece of sliced wood with squiggly ink marks on it. …though the Bible is the # 1 Best Seller of All Time for a good reason and if you’ve never read it, I highly recommend grinding through it from cover to cover as fast as you can.

Ha yes in all one may believe the “TRUTH” sets one free and the “WORD” of GOD is truth.
I accept what you say in this matter
God bless
littleone.