Did Moses and/or Jacob "see" God?

[Truarchs]

Can anyone help resolve these verses?

Exodus 33:10 - Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend.

Gen 32:30 - So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, saying, “For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life is preserved.”



John 1:18 - No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

1 John 4:12 - No man has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.

 

[ryanoneil]

This is an imperfect answer I cobbled together from the book “Jesus of Nazareth” pages 4,2, and 5.

If you remember, Moses asked God, “I pray thee, show me thy glory” (Ex 33:18). God refueses his request: “You cannot see my face” (Ex 33:20). Moses is placed near God in the cleft of a rock, and God passes my with his glory. As he passes, God covers Moses with his own hand, but he withdraws it at the end: “You shall see my back; but my face shall not be seen” (Ex 33:23).

The most important thing is that he spoke with God as with a friend. He shows us the face of God, and in so doing he shows us the path that we have to take. The true exodus is the path to God that we must seek and find.

The main point is that although Moses’ immediate relation to God makes him the great mediator of revelation, the mediator of the Covenant, it has its limits. He does not behold God’s face, even though he is permitted to enter into the cloud of God’s presence and to speak with God as a friend.

The promise of a “prophet like me” (Deut 34:10) means that the last prophet, Jesus the new Moses, will be granted what was refused to the first one - a real, immediate vision of the face of God. Jesus has the ability to speak entirely from seeing, not just from looking at God’s back. Jesus will be the mediator of a greater covenant than the one that Moses brang down the mountain.

So, “No one has ever seen God; it is the only Son, who is nearest to the Father’s heart, who has made him known” (John 1:18) It is in Jesus that the promise of the new prophet is fulfilled. What was true of Moses only in fragmentary form has now been fully realized in the person of Jesus; He lives before the face of God, not just as a friend, but as a Son; he lives in the most intimate unity with the Father.

 

[MH84]

Profound response ryanoneil. The book by Pope Benedict is good isnt it and accessible for the average reader (although I have the audio version).

However, what about Jacob who “wrestled with God”?

 

[turtle18]

Didn’t Abraham also see God? He talked with him quite regularly and God even showed up at his tent one day? Should we assume this is Jesus? If Jesus can appear to indiviudals now in the Spirit, could he have appeared in the OT as a Spirit before he was born of human flesh?

 

[Truarchs]

ryanoneil - Thank you, that was a very thoughtful reply. I think I am getting hung up on meanings that are too literal. I know the Hebrew in Exodus 33:11 is “paneem al paneem”. literally “face to face” or “mouth to mouth” but probably more properly describes the closeness of their relationship. Similarly the Genesis verse may be seen metaphorically.

turtle18 - In Genesis Abram dreamed of God (Ch 15) and God appeared to him (CH 17) but there is nothing suggesting Abram saw the face of God. I guess, bearing in mind that God has no Body (catholic.com/library/God_Has_No_Body.asp) the meaning of seeing God Face to Face can only be seen metaphorically.

I have started reading Jesus of Nazareth twice but have not completed it yet. I think I will start it again and complete it for Advent. It is truly a great book, I’m just easily distracted and move to other books (Adult ADD I think ).

Thanks again for your thoughts. Perhaps the question to ponder is what is meant by the “face of God”? It surely relates to the intimacy of our relationship with Him.

 

[Pete_1]

However, what about Jacob who “wrestled with God”?

Yea what about this?

 

[ryanoneil]

ryanoneil - Thank you, that was a very thoughtful reply. I think I am getting hung up on meanings that are too literal. I know the Hebrew in Exodus 33:11 is “paneem al paneem”. literally “face to face” or “mouth to mouth” but probably more properly describes the closeness of their relationship. Similarly the Genesis verse may be seen metaphorically.

Thanks again for your thoughts. Perhaps the question to ponder is what is meant by the “face of God”? It surely relates to the intimacy of our relationship with Him.

Your welcome Truarchs. I just started reading the book, and had only made it through the introduction, when I saw your question. God works in mysterious ways. page 4 says: He (Moses) shows us the face of God, and in so doing he shows us the path that we have to take. So, I think you have the right idea.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[ryanoneil]

Profound response ryanoneil. The book by Pope Benedict is good isnt it and accessible for the average reader (although I have the audio version).

However, what about Jacob who “wrestled with God”?

I can’t say for sure, but my New American Bible has a header above verse 23 that says Struggle with the Angel.

Peace,

Ryan

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Can anyone help resolve these verses?

Exodus 33:10 - Thus the LORD used to speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend.

Gen 32:30 - So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel, saying, “For I have seen God face to face, and yet my life is preserved.”

Yes, they saw God, but was it God the Father or was it God the Son? I think it was likely God the Son. Look into what is called theophanies.

The Son of God took on a visible form at various times in the Old Testament, appearing to:

Adam (Genesis 3:8)
Abraham (Genesis 17:1-4, 9-10, 15-16, 22; Genesis 18:1-3, 10)
Jacob (Genesis 32:24-30)
Moses (Exodus 3:2-6)
Joshua (Joshua 5:13-15)
Daniel (Daniel 3:22-25)

christiananswers.net/dictionary/theophany.html

John 1:18 - No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.

In context, Jesus is referring to God the Father ( at least that is how his Jewish listeners would have understood him as saying ) which also is qualified in,

John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

1 John 4:12 - No man has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.

Read I John 4 in context, I think John is saying Normally, people do not see God, jumping to verses 19-20, if you do not love the person in front of you whom you can see, then you do not love God whom you do not normaly see. The context is not saying that at any time in the past no one has ever seen God. The context of I John 4, is simply saying** in our everyday lives we do not see God**, whom is spirit.

7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen **God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us. ** 13 This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God. 16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. 

**19 We love because he first loved us. 20 If we say we love God yet hate a brother or sister, we are liars. For if we do not love a fellow believer, whom we have seen, we cannot love God, whom we have not seen.** 21 And he has given us this command: Those who love God must also love one another.

From the stand point of the Trinity, these sayings make perfect sense. Those in the OT who saw God, saw God the Son. Jesus is simply saying in John that no human has ever saw God the Father who lives in unapproachable light’” (1 Tim. 6:15-16). And, that Jesus has made him known to us.

John 14:8-9 (New International Version)

8Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9Jesus answered: "Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

My advice sit down and read the book of John, yes outline it. You will see that when Jesus simply uses the word God without any kind of qualification, he is speaking about God the Father.

Read I John 4 for context. The message is simply fulfilling Love the Lord thy God, and love thy neighbor as yourself. If you do not love your neighbor who is standing right in front of you, then you do not Love God whom you do not normally see. The text when correctly understood is not saying that no one has ever seen God the Son at anytime, anywhere, that is simply pushing the text too far. Read it for context, not for proof text like Arians like to do.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

I can’t say for sure, but my New American Bible has a header above verse 23 that says Struggle with the Angel.

Peace,

Ryan

Hi Ryan, the phrase “angel of the Lord” often refers to God himself like in

Exodus 3
Moses and the Burning Bush

1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the desert and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. 3 So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up.”
4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!”
And Moses said, “Here I am.”

5 “Do not come any closer,” God said. “Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground.” 6 Then he said, “**I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” **At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.

 

[MH84]

Yes, they saw God, but was it God the Father or was it God the Son? I think it was likely God the Son. Look into what is called theophanies.

The Son of God took on a visible form at various times in the Old Testament, appearing to:

Adam (Genesis 3:8)
Abraham (Genesis 17:1-4, 9-10, 15-16, 22; Genesis 18:1-3, 10)
Jacob (Genesis 32:24-30)
Moses (Exodus 3:2-6)
Joshua (Joshua 5:13-15)
Daniel (Daniel 3:22-25)

1 I am a bit skeptical of this information, particularly since its from a “generic” Christian website. Because what this website is implying is that it was God the Son who appeared to Moses in the burning bush. I have always thought of the theophany to be a representation of the Trinity, or if not, God the Father.

2 Where does it say in the Bible or from Church teaching that because the Son is the Word, this means that only the Son was (could?) manifest Himself on Earth? To me, this explanation is limiting the power of God. When did the Father actually reveal Himself, at the Baptism of Jesus and the Transfiguration only? How come He revealed Himself then, but not in the Old Testament times?

3

My advice sit down and read the book of John, yes outline it. You will see that when Jesus simply uses the word God without any kind of qualification, he is speaking about God the Father.

Does this mean that according to you, when St.Paul talks about God in the epistles “uses the word God without any kind of qualification, he is speaking about God the Father” as well? Where is the proof of this conclusion (I would seriously like to know)? If you told an Arian this, that would only cement their belief that the Son is not qual to the Father.

DanielMarsh, please explain further.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

1 I am a bit skeptical of this information, particularly since its from a “generic” Christian website. Because what this website is implying is that it was God the Son who appeared to Moses in the burning bush. I have always thought of the theophany to be a representation of the Trinity, or if not, God the Father.

John 8:58 (New International Version)

“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Only one member of the godhead suffered on the cross Rev 1.

Jesus applies the same name of God, he gave in Exodus 3:14 to himself, thus identiflying whom, the Son of God as the one who appeared to Moses.

2 Where does it say in the Bible or from Church teaching that because the Son is the Word, this means that only the Son was (could?) manifest Himself on Earth? To me, this explanation is limiting the power of God. When did the Father actually reveal Himself, at the Baptism of Jesus and the Transfiguration only? How come He revealed Himself then, but not in the Old Testament times?

The two texts in John above rule out the Father as showing himself. And, no one saw the Father “face to face” and yet we have texts of those in the OT who did see God face to face.

3

Does this mean that according to you, when St.Paul talks about God in the epistles “uses the word God without any kind of qualification, he is speaking about God the Father” as well? Where is the proof of this conclusion (I would seriously like to know)? If you told an Arian this, that would only cement their belief that the Son is not qual to the Father.

DanielMarsh, please explain further.

I was speaking in the context of the gospels, whom Jesus was speaking to. Jewish people understand “Our Father” is God the Father. When you simply say God back then, they understood it to mean God the Father. It is simply a matter of historical context, and whom Jesus was speaking to. And, often Paul does a good job of qualifly whom he was speaking about, when he used the word God.

Paul was writing to churches, not writing an document, gospel of evangelism.

As one of Jewish background myself. from my Jewish religion, I always understood “god” to be speaking of our father.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Revelation 1:5-8 (King James Version)

5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

7Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

God the Father never got a spear in his side!!!

1 Corinthians 10:4 (King James Version)

And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

God the Father was not that rock who followed them around.

John 5:39
You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,

Being equal in NATURE does not mean each member of the godhead are equal in row.

It is soley the authority, row of the Father to determine when Jesus will return ( rev 1:1 ) for example.

The members of the Trinity are equal in nature, but there are rows of authority among them.

look online for bowman’s biblical outline trinity.

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Jewish liturgy repeatedly describes God as “Avinu Malkeinu,” our Father, our King.

Avinu malkeinu (Our Father, our King) is a penitential prayer in the services during the period from Rosh Hashanah through Yom Kippur.

If you want to hear it, go here,

hebrewsongs.com/song-avinumalkeinu.htm

THE CHILDREN OF GOD

A. lsraelites Are The Children Of God
Exo. 4:22 / Den. 14:1 / Isa. 1:2,4 / Isa. 63:8 / Jer. 31:9 / Hos. 11:1

B. Disobedient Israelites Are Not The Children Of God
Deu. 32:5 / John 8:39, 42, 44

C. The Christians Are The Children Of God
John. 1:12, 11:52 / Rom. 8:14,16 / 2 Cor. 6:18 / Gal. 3:26 / Gal. 4:5, 6, 7 / Philip. 2:15 / 1 Jo. 3:1

 

[Daniel_Marsh]

Key point: Roles of those in the Godhead has rank, and should not be confused with the Nature of those in the godhead. All members are equal in Nature, but voluntearly have rank, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

God the Father, nor the Holy Spirit were stabbed in the side with a spear, only Jesus was, that is why Rev 1, “first and last”, “alpha and omega” and esp., “who is, who was, who is to come” ( the divine name itself ) are problematic for arians.

 

[MH84]

Key point: Roles of those in the Godhead has rank, and should not be confused with the Nature of those in the godhead. All members are equal in Nature, but voluntearly have rank, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

God the Father, nor the Holy Spirit were stabbed in the side with a spear, only Jesus was, that is why Rev 1, “first and last”, “alpha and omega” and esp., “who is, who was, who is to come” ( the divine name itself ) are problematic for arians.

1 Will this “rank” within the Godhead remain for ever, or is it only temporary?

2 Before creation, was there subordination within the Trinity?

 

[MH84]

Yes, they saw God, but was it God the Father or was it God the Son? I think it was likely God the Son. Look into what is called theophanies.

The Son of God took on a visible form at various times in the Old Testament, appearing to:

Adam (Genesis 3:8)
Abraham (Genesis 17:1-4, 9-10, 15-16, 22; Genesis 18:1-3, 10)
Jacob (Genesis 32:24-30)
Moses (Exodus 3:2-6)
Joshua (Joshua 5:13-15)
Daniel (Daniel 3:22-25)

christiananswers.net/dictionary/theophany.html

I think I was right to be skeptical of this claim.

This is what I found in New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia

Those who take the less favourable view assert that they teach the following points inconsistent with the post-Nicene belief of the Church:

…that the Son alone appeared in the theophanies of the Old Testament, inasmuchas the Father is essentially invisible, the Son, however, not so;…