Did Moses Exist?

[zenith15]

It only seems so currently since there is proof that you exist. It will be less so in about a hundred years when there is less historical evidence that you existed. It will be deemed a valid question by some random academic in about a thousand years when there is no historical evidence you existed.

Actually, there may be a good bit. Lots of things are documented about people nowadays as opposed to way back then. But when enormous events occurred, there was usually more than one source that wrote or documented it in some way. Some say there is not much evidence for the existence of Jesus, but from what I read that seems false–there were several other sources that mention Him, and it seems difficult to believe such a large religion could begin so quickly at that time period surrounding someone who never existed at all.

 

[farpinho]

For the sake of believers in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, I surely hope so!

You… hope?

 

[George_Stegmeir]

I am so tired with journalists and editors who promulgate doubts that the Bible is history as well as being Devine Writ.
I am also tired of TV producers, such as the History channel who strive to explain Biblical miracles by modern scientific supposition- like their program about G*d’s curses upon the Egyption’s to convince Pharoe to “Let my people go” and their program about the parting of the Red Sea, or the Burning Bush.
All of this claptrap is part of the intellectual elit’s program of the secularization of the United States.
It is just like their fairly successful efforts to convince American society that sex outside of marriage and divorce is OK. This, of course has been followed by foisting off beliefs that homosexual behavior is socially acceptable and that homosexual marriage should be the law of the land.
These spin meisters are now trying to change the meaning of the US Constitution by calling Freedom of Religion “Freedom of Worship” in order to shove contreception and abortion down the throat of religious institutions. They are claiming that only Churches and Religious Communities associated with Churches are exempt from the odious parts of Obamacare. Church operated Charitible Organizations, Hospitals, Schools, and Universities are not exempt according to them.
Their so-called compromise with the Churches is that they will not have to pay for Abortion and Contreception, the Insurance Companies will pay for it. Well, just one logical question comes to mind: Who pays the Insurance Companies for Obamacare? Certainly not the government!

 

[sirach2v4]

I just came from the grocery store where I was paging through a special edition copy of Newsweek which was all about the Bible. In it, there was an article about Moses which said, among other things, that there is no source outside the Bible that Moses ever existed. I have also read in other places that there is no evidence that the Hebrews leaving Egypt wandered in the desert for forty years, etc and that there should be physical evidence left behind in that area if such a thing occurred.

Thoughts?

Even at face value, the Torah was written after, perhaps long after, the events that are described. But, even the Torah was written over an extended period of time, evidenced by discrepancies and shifts in emphasis, names for God, etc. Also, the use of certain metals also dates certain writings.

The Torah series of commentaries from the Jewish Publication Society regularly cites cross-references to surrounding cultures.

One historical turning point in the Old Testament has to do with a mention about the domestication of camels, which took place at a time which historians can document, to some degree of accuracy.

Historical criticism is useful, as Pope Benedict has stated many times, but it has it limitations, based as it is on skepticism.

Regarding the general question of historical validation of the Bible, I’m not sure if there is a comprehensive or encyclopedic reference available.

 

[meltzerboy]

You… hope?

My statement was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, although not entirely. For, even believers, strong as their faith may be, do not and cannot have certitude based on absolute knowledge. Faith is not the equivalent of certainty. The latter would be G-d’s prerogative, not ours. Or so I believe.

 

[iloveangels]

Maybe the skeptics would be satisfied if a photograph of Moses along with a blood and stool sample could be provided.

Only if accompanied by a driver’s license.

 

[_Abyssinia]

I just came from the grocery store where I was paging through a special edition copy of Newsweek which was all about the Bible. In it, there was an article about Moses which said, among other things, that there is no source outside the Bible that Moses ever existed. I have also read in other places that there is no evidence that the Hebrews leaving Egypt wandered in the desert for forty years, etc and that there should be physical evidence left behind in that area if such a thing occurred.

Thoughts?

What evidence do people expect there to be as proof for Moses’ existence? We have evidence from the Bible. Historical method prioritises the primary documents

There were not extraBiblical evidence for people, places and empires in the course of history and skeptics claimed the Biblical record could not be trusted.

Consider that sceptics did not believe the Hitties existed because they were only mentioned in the Bible. From an article for the July 1882 British Quarterly Review, William Wright writes pages 53 to 54

It is desirable that this investigation should be undertaken, because the casual references to the Hittites in the Bible have been used by the enemies of Divine revelation to discredit the historical accuracy of the book, and some of the weak friends of the Bible have begun to propagate doubt where they cannot disprove.

In 1857 Professor F. W. [Francis William] Newman, fellow of Balliol College, Oxford, in his History of the Hebrew Monarchy [Pp. 178, 179, Vol. xii], speaks of the Bible references to the Hittites as ‘unhistorical,’ and as ‘not exhibiting the writer’s acquaintance with the times in a very favourable light,’ and the Rev. T. K. [Thomas Kelly] Cheyne, Fellow of the same college, writing on the Hittites, in the Encyclopaedia Britannica, last year [1881], treats the Bible statements regarding the Hittites as unhistorical and unworthy of credence. Referring to the mention of the Hittites in the Book of Genesis, he says, ’ The lists of these pre-Israelitish populations cannot be taken as strictly historical documents,’ ‘they cannot be taken as of equal authority with Egyptian and Assyrian inscriptions;’ and, carrying out his comparison, he adds, ‘Not less unfavourable to the accuracy of the Old Testament references to the Hittites is the evidence deducible from proper names.’

In 1906

“critics of Biblical historicity argued that the Bible’s descriptions of the Hittite Empire were later insertions, since they were certain the Hittite Empire didn’t exist… But in 1906 archaeologists unearthed the Hittite capital and in the years following excavated what is now known to have been a massive and very prominent Hittite civilization”

The Hitties are not only the example of sceptics clamining there was not extraBiblical evidence for an empire, person or place and claiming they did not exist and being proven wrong. King Sargon, King David, Pool of Bethesda etc are other examples of scholars claiming there was no extraBiblical evidence and thus that doubted their historicity and being proven wrong

There is a book called, ‘Israel in Egypt: The Evidence for the Authenticity of the Exodus Tradition’ by James K Hoffmeier, who is professor of Bible Studies and Archeology. He looks at the current Egyptological evidence for the Exodus and he argues that it supports the Biblical records

bibleprobe.com/exodus.htm

There are Sinatic inscriptions in Wadee El-Mukattab, Sinai that record some of the events of the Exodus from a non - Hebrew source

I believe I read on this forum before, that it would be very unlikely that the Egyptians would record the events of the 10 plagues in tablets or on markers/monuments because back then the only things that were memorialized in history were triumphs of the king and of the country. The whole Exodus would have been a humiliating episode for the Pharaoh and would not have been something they wanted to commemorate or even remember

 

[_Abyssinia]

John Fulton

Did the Exodus happen? Answering the sceptics

‘Before Moses, the Bible records that the Israelites were enslaved by their Egyptian hosts (Exodus 1:8-14). In the Brooklyn Museum (p.276, fig. 310) resides a papyrus scroll numbered Brooklyn 35:1446 which was acquired in the late 19th century by Charles Wilbour. This dates to the reign of Sobekhotep III, the predecessor of Neferhotep I and so the pharaoh who reigned one generation before Moses. This papyrus is a decree by the pharaoh for a transfer of slaves. Of the 95 names of slaves mentioned in the letter, 50% are Semitic in origin. What is more, it lists the names of these slaves in the original Semitic language and then adds the Egyptian name each had been assigned, which is something the Bible records the Egyptians as doing, cf. Joseph’s name given to him by pharaoh (Genesis 41:45). Some of the Semitic names are biblical and include:- Menahem, Issachar, Asher, and Shiprah (cf. Exodus 1:15-21)

…

The site of Avaris has been uncovered by the Austrian archaeologist Manfred Bietak in the land of Goshen underneath that of the city of Ramesses. It provides plenty of proof, says Fulton, for Israel’s presence and sufferings in Egypt:

‘The people who lived in Avaris were not Egyptian but Asiatic Palestinian or Syrian. The finds there included numerous pottery fragments of Palestinian origin. Several factors about the graves were particularly fascinating:- 65% of the burials were of children under 18 months of age, the normal for this period being 20-30%. Could this be due to the killing of the male Israelite children by the Egyptians, recorded in Exodus 1:22? A disproportionately high number of adult women as opposed to adult men are buried here, again pointing to the slaughter of male Israelite babies. There are large numbers of long-haired Asiatic sheep buried which indicate these people to be shepherds. Large numbers of weapons found in the male graves indicate the warlike nature of the people’

 

[zenith15]

What evidence do people expect there to be as proof for Moses’ existence? We have evidence from the Bible. Historical method prioritises the primary documents

There were not extraBiblical evidence for people, places and empires in the course of history and skeptics claimed the Biblical record could not be trusted.

Consider that sceptics did not believe the Hitties existed because they were only mentioned in the Bible. From an article for the July 1882 British Quarterly Review, William Wright writes pages 53 to 54

In 1906

The Hitties are not only the example of sceptics clamining there was not extraBiblical evidence for an empire, person or place and claiming they did not exist and being proven wrong. King Sargon, King David, Pool of Bethesda etc are other examples of scholars claiming there was no extraBiblical evidence and thus that doubted their historicity and being proven wrong

There is a book called, ‘Israel in Egypt: The Evidence for the Authenticity of the Exodus Tradition’ by James K Hoffmeier, who is professor of Bible Studies and Archeology. He looks at the current Egyptological evidence for the Exodus and he argues that it supports the Biblical records

bibleprobe.com/exodus.htm

There are Sinatic inscriptions in Wadee El-Mukattab, Sinai that record some of the events of the Exodus from a non - Hebrew source

I believe I read on this forum before, that it would be very unlikely that the Egyptians would record the events of the 10 plagues in tablets or on markers/monuments because back then the only things that were memorialized in history were triumphs of the king and of the country. The whole Exodus would have been a humiliating episode for the Pharaoh and would not have been something they wanted to commemorate or even remember

Thanks. This was a very interesting answer.

 

[akeylapratt]

It only seems so currently since there is proof that you exist. It will be less so in about a hundred years when there is less historical evidence that you existed. It will be deemed a valid question by some random academic in about a thousand years when there is no historical evidence you existed.

That logic only follows if the OP will have done something as monumental as orchestrating the Exodus.

There are plenty of people who had little to no effect on history and therefore aren’t recorded (no offense OP). But the Exodus, on the scale that the text of the Old Testament claims it took place, would have been a massive undertaking.

The book of Exodus asserts that Moses brought TENS OF THOUSANDS of Hebrews out of their slavery in Egypt. Even in modern times, that would have been no small feat. It would have been even more remarkable back in the time of Ancient Israel, and the lack of extra-biblical evidence supporting the existence of Moses is a subject that should be examined by the Church. Something like that would have definitely been recorded somewhere outside of the Bible, at the very least in some ancient Egyptian records somewhere.

I’m not saying he DIDN’T exist, mind you. I’m just checking you on your faux-logic that you’re trying to use in response to the OP’s question. Trying to compare the historical significance (and thereby the potential to continue to exist in future historical records) of the OP to Moses is completely absurd.

A better way to respond to this question would have been to provide more biblical and/ or extrabiblical sources that support the existence of Moses. And this goes for everyone else who participated in the rest of this “Do you exist?” thread as well.

 

[COPLAND_3]

Those comments from the Newsweek article almost sounds like something you’d find in the footnotes of the NAB and other modernist scholarship garbage.

 

[TimothyH]

Only if you exist…

At the current rate of loss, having shrunk your body to nothing, by my calculations you will cease to exist on January 27, 2014.

-Tim-

 

[TimothyH]

Those comments from the Newsweek article almost sounds like something you’d find in the footnotes of the NAB and other modernist scholarship garbage.

Is the NAB really modernist scholarship garbage?

The NAB doesn’t deny Mose’s existence after all.

-Tim-

 

[COPLAND_3]

Is the NAB really modernist scholarship garbage?

The NAB doesn’t deny Mose’s existence after all.

-Tim-

No, I might have been slightly out of line by saying that. I have just seen NAB footnotes and similar schools of thought cause more doubts rather than solidifying faith in Scripture for learning Christians.

 

[Mijo12]

I just came from the grocery store where I was paging through a special edition copy of Newsweek which was all about the Bible. In it, there was an article about Moses which said, among other things, that there is no source outside the Bible that Moses ever existed. I have also read in other places that there is no evidence that the Hebrews leaving Egypt wandered in the desert for forty years, etc and that there should be physical evidence left behind in that area if such a thing occurred.

Thoughts?

Yes Moses existed, Abraham lived around 2000BC and 1700BC, evidence of Joseph exist too in this link
christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a016.html
there is dispute about when the Hebrews left Egypt, but there is a primary source that indicates that they had already settled in Cannan around 1210BC.
christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a015.html

 

[Aloysium]

That logic only follows if the OP will have done something as monumental as orchestrating the Exodus.

There are plenty of people who had little to no effect on history and therefore aren’t recorded (no offense OP). But the Exodus, on the scale that the text of the Old Testament claims it took place, would have been a massive undertaking.

The book of Exodus asserts that Moses brought TENS OF THOUSANDS of Hebrews out of their slavery in Egypt. Even in modern times, that would have been no small feat. It would have been even more remarkable back in the time of Ancient Israel, and the lack of extra-biblical evidence supporting the existence of Moses is a subject that should be examined by the Church. Something like that would have definitely been recorded somewhere outside of the Bible, at the very least in some ancient Egyptian records somewhere.

I’m not saying he DIDN’T exist, mind you. I’m just checking you on your faux-logic that you’re trying to use in response to the OP’s question. Trying to compare the historical significance (and thereby the potential to continue to exist in future historical records) of the OP to Moses is completely absurd.

A better way to respond to this question would have been to provide more biblical and/ or extrabiblical sources that support the existence of Moses. And this goes for everyone else who participated in the rest of this “Do you exist?” thread as well.

i do not intend to be offensive but seriously, using the words “logic” and “faux-logic” and “absurd” and telling how the poster should have responded is overstepping boundaries.

The fact is that there will be nothing of us, nor of our having been here in this world 5K years from now. Even if there is a digital record of this thread, it will be like finding one particular grain of sand in any of the beaches of this planet.

Whatever role we may play in the afterlife, we here transmitting God’s love to others, like ripples on a lake, will help future generations. But there will be no record of us.

This is because we did not do anything monumental like Moses. I believe he existed before the Romans; where are their myths, if he is only a myth? What did he do that was monumental? He carried out God’s will in a way that changed the world.

As to providing more extrabiblical sources - what a complete waste of time.

the proof is in scripture and the teachings of the Church; it rings true and is held together by an inner consistency

it brings one closer to God - that’s all the proof i need

 

[LongJohnSilver]

In historical biblical research, two extreme posititions can be taken. One is the maximalistic position, that accepts everything in the O.T. as being historical as long as the opposite cannot be proven. The other is the minimalistic position, which claims anything is unhistorical unless proven by contemporary literal or archeological sources.

While modern scientists too often seem to take the last position, we need to be careful not to jump to the first position too quickly. The stories of which the O.T. consists are not only written many centuries after they actually (supposedly) happend, but their main goal also is not so much historiography as it is telling history. These are different things. The first is a modern western invention, aimed at the objective recovery of really happend events (poor definition, but I have no time now). The second is telling families lessons about who they are, where they come from and where they are going. It’s a story about God and a people. Whether elements of the story really, actually happend exactly as they are written is a question that is out of place here.

The idea that something is false or untrue when it didn’t actually happen is also a modern western claim that is silly. So don’t let it shake your faith.