Did Mother Mary have other children?

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Randy_Carson said:
My apologies. I quoted from a Protestant translation:

Matthew 1:24-25 (King James Version)
24Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: 25And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
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Thank you for using a catholic translation; it makes my point.
 
Randy_Carson said:
Or perhaps these “brothers” were actually more distant relations (as the Aramaic language allows), and that Mary was already a widow with no one to care for her.
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Maybe; however, that’s why we should pull a verse out and make a doctrine from it.
 
Dokimas said:
Thank you for using a catholic translation; it my point.
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No, my first post was from the NIV, and I re-posted that to document the fact that the NIV does not contain the word “firstborn” as the KJV does.

The RSV-CE and the NAB do not contain “firstborn”, either. However, the D-R reads:

24 And Joseph rising up from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and took unto him his wife. 25 And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.
 
Dokimas said:
Maybe; however, that’s why we should pull a verse out and make a doctrine from it.
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I assume you meant “that’s why we should NOT pull…”. No problem, I understood.

Then perhaps you can provide a more complete exegesis of scripture proving beyond a shadow of a doubt that Mary and Joseph engaged in “normal relations” resulting in the births of other children whose presence is unambiguous in the pages of scripture.

Thanks in advance.
 
Randy_Carson said:
Tina, do you have a source for this? Obviously, the Protoevangelium was not considered inspired, but I don’t recall reading that it was ever banned. I’d like to learn more.
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Hey Randy -

I realize I’ve stated this twice now without backup, which is kinda bad. The following may be of interest to you but I will look more later. I thought this might be it but it doesn’t nail it. Note there are two documents relating to Mary that were banned. One might be the PJ. It does show that they thought there was stuff going around that was wrong about Mary, though.

ntcanon.org/Decretum_Gelasianum.shtml

I need to go.

-Tina 🙂
 
TinaG said:
Hey Randy -

I realize I’ve stated this twice now without backup, which is kinda bad. The following may be of interest to you but I will look more later. I thought this might be it but it doesn’t nail it. Note there are two documents relating to Mary that were banned. One might be the PJ. It does show that they thought there was stuff going around that was wrong about Mary, though.

ntcanon.org/Decretum_Gelasianum.shtml

I need to go.

-Tina 🙂
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If a pope “banned” the Protoevangelium, there ought to be something more definitive available than this obscure website and list of books…let me know if you find something 'cause I’m stumped.
 
TinaG said:
Hi!

There is the possibility that Joseph and Mary adopted children after Jesus was born. They would be rightly called his brothers and sisters. Nothing specifically states this did not happen. We should not go beyond the Scriptures and assert that Mary gave birth to others - such a statement IS jumping to conclusions. And where the Scriptures are silent, where do we go? Typically, to what the church has spoken on the issue.

It does not help that the Protoevangelion of James was banned by a pope. This is the principal source for the development of Marian theology. From what I have heard, Mary’s role as discussed in patristic literature is nowhere near the role the Catholics and Orthodox place her in today.

Where does this leave us? In the position of needing to be very, very careful in dealing with this emotionally overcharged issue.

-Tina:)
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Tina,

Have you never attended a Divine Liturgy? There are 3 Divine Liturgies used by the Orthodox & Eastern Catholics: The Divine Liturgy of St. James (the Apostle), The Divine Liturgy of St. Basil (early 300s) & the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (late 300s & early 400s) - In each, The Theotokos is praised and asked to save us. In each the highest honor is given to the Theotokos.

Yet you claim that the Orthodox and Catholic Marian role is not found in the teachings of the early Church Fathers because you “heard” that? Don’t repeat rumors, it’s a pure lie. Whoever told you this is attempting to deceive you! Be strong and investigate for yourself. Jesus wants you to know the Truth. He IS God and Mary gave birth to Him…Mary IS Theotokos! Mary NEVER had sex with St. Joseph, Mary never adopted any children (other than spiritually adopting those who follow her Son Rev. 12) St. Joseph was an elderly man and already had raised his children (they’re all older than Mary). He was by lottery chosen to marry Mary as a “caretaker” of her because menstrating woman were Not allowed to live in the Temple, so even though she’d lived there since age 3, the priests needed her gone Before she ever had a period. St. Joseph Was a Holy Man! It didn’t occur to him to violate her as he knew of her vow to God and he knew that she gave birth to God Incarnate and because he was sooo old! He’d already lived out a normal marriage in his younger days with the woman he’d loved and chosen. He knew it to be a great honor to, in his old age, to care for the Theotokos and the Logos!
 
Dokimas said:
If you were responsible for your mother, and you had a choice, would you leave her care to sibblings who had wrong understandings about life, death, God and eternity or to a person who understood the truth and who would follow your will?
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You are actually insinuating that Jesus did have biological siblings and that they were not Christians?! Where is a icon face with rolling eyes when you need one?
 
My Church has historical connections to men who actually lived when the Holy Mother was still alive. Our Traditions regarding her are easy to find and make a lot of theological sense. If these Traditions are false…they would be impossible to prove or disprove. Rumors about someone who lived almost 2000 years ago are a little hard to deal with effectively.
 
Teneas said:
It’s possible sure. I would think that Christ would have said something about his own brothers and sisters death however. I could be wrong.
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Don’t know. Jesus is not my area of expertise. But I didn’t think he spoke much about his own personal life in the Gospels.
 
SingleMomMonica said:
You are actually insinuating that Jesus did have biological siblings and that they were not Christians?! Where is a icon face with rolling eyes when you need one?
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Sort of, you are correct. It is believed the leader of the Jerusalem church, who’s name was James, was the brother of Jesus. If so, that would mean he became a follower of his Big Brother.
 
But the James mentioned as being the brother of the Lord is mentioned (in Scripture) as being a disciple. The two “James” who are listed as being disciples in Scripture are James the brother of John (whose father is Zebedee, not Joseph), and James the son of Alphaeus (again, obviously not the son of Joseph).
 
Dokimas said:
Sort of, you are correct. It is believed the leader of the Jerusalem church, who’s name was James, was the brother of Jesus. If so, that would mean he became a follower of his Big Brother.
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I take it you don’t personally know anyone from Palestine who’s first language is Arabic which is derived from Aramaic, one of the languages spoken by Jesus. Even today, when I speak with my Palestinian friends, they’ll tell me that that brother or sister is coming over…but it turns out it’s their cousin because they have the same Grandparents, not the same Parents. Their not used to using the word “cousin” because in Arabic, like in Aramaic, “brother” or “sister” is the more appropriate word to convey the close relation. “Cousin” is used for more distant relatives.
 
Tantum_ergo said:
But the James mentioned as being the brother of the Lord is mentioned (in Scripture) as being a disciple. The two “James” who are listed as being disciples in Scripture are James the brother of John (whose father is Zebedee, not Joseph), and James the son of Alphaeus (again, obviously not the son of Joseph).
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You are speaking the Truth!
 
Dokimas said:
If you were responsible for your mother, and you had a choice, would you leave her care to sibblings who had wrong understandings about life, death, God and eternity or to a person who understood the truth and who would follow your will?
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Dokimas I am amazed. You seem to understand more than me about the siblings of Jesus 🙂

Well to my understanding, When Jesus started preaching, 1000’s of people became His followers. Even the roman Soldier viz, the one whose servant Jesus cured. " remember ‘Only say the word and he will be healed’? and there are other isntances too. The only people who were against Jesus were the scolars or Pharisees.

Mother mary was a woman who even Angel Gabrial anounced as full of Grace. Now can you imagine if Jesus had siblings such siblings would not have followed Jesus, and do you believe Mother Mary would have reared them in bad way?
 
Kantaram88 said:
Dokimas I am amazed. You seem to understand more than me about the siblings of Jesus 🙂

Well to my understanding, When Jesus started preaching, 1000’s of people became His followers. Even the roman Soldier viz, the one whose servant Jesus cured. " remember ‘Only say the word and he will be healed’? and there are other isntances too. The only people who were against Jesus were the scolars or Pharisees.

Mother mary was a woman who even Angel Gabrial anounced as full of Grace. Now can you imagine if Jesus had siblings such siblings would not have followed Jesus, and do you believe Mother Mary would have reared them in bad way?
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You have false assumptions. And didn’t Jesus say the ones hardest to ‘preach’ to would be those closest to you (in so many words).
 
Here are some evidences from scripture of Mary’s other children. These were Jesus’ half siblings and in no way possessed the divine nature.

Mt 13:55-56 “Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? 56Aren’t all his sisters with us?

Mark 6:3 Isn’t this the carpenter? Isn’t this Mary’s son and the brother of James, Joseph,a Judas and Simon? Aren’t his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him.

Gal 1:19 I saw none of the other apostles—only James, the Lord’s brother. (James was head of the church in Jerusalem)

John 7:5 But when the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles was near, 3Jesus’ brothers said to him, “You ought to leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples may see the miracles you do. 4No one who wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to the world.” 5For even his own brothers did not believe in him.

The controversy Mat 1:25But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus. Arises form the word until which is in the original greek and is (Of uncertain affinity; a conjunction, preposition and adverb of continuance, until (of time and place) – even (until, unto), (as) far (as), how long, (un-)til(-l), (hither-, un-, up) to, while(-s). ) Means exactly what it says and infers. After Jesus was born they were joined as husband and wife in the biblical sense. The implication is clear. If we were talking about anyone else there would be no question.

They would not even be married unless the marriage was consummated.
 
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