Did Mother Mary have other children?

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With all due respect Randy the bible says nothing about Rome or its role in being the home of the church. The church is built on Christ He is the cornerstone. 1 Peter 2:4-5 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him— 5you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. The body is built by our faith in Jesus. 1 Peter1:2 for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: We are elect for our obedience to Christ.

Nowhere in the bible does Peter come across as the person you claim. He never asserts the office you claim he had. 1 Peter 5:1 To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ’s He is always humble and gracious a co laborer
Wow. Talk about a target-rich post…where to begin? 😛

How about this?

1 Peter 5:1 – Peter a “fellow elder”

Many non-Catholics try to minimize the authority of the Catholic Papacy by pointing to 1 Peter 5:1 where Peter calls himself a “fellow elder” and claiming that Peter was nothing special because he considers himself equal to all the other elders?

However, could it be possible that the fifth chapter of 1 Peter is all about humility, and that Peter is modeling the very behavior he is exhorting others to exhibit?

1 Peter 5:1-7
1To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ’s sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, serving as overseers—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not greedy for money, but eager to serve; 3not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. 4And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away. 5Young men, in the same way be submissive to those who are older. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because, "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble." 6Humble yourselves, therefore, under God’s mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. 7Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.

Peter’s desire was that some of the recipients of this letter might have been moved by seeing that he of all people had humbled himself by calling himself a mere “fellow elder”? Would this have inspired them to practice humility, also?

Mark 9:33-35
33They came to Capernaum. When he was in the house, he asked them, “What were you arguing about on the road?” 34But they kept quiet because on the way they had argued about who was the greatest. 35Sitting down, Jesus called the Twelve and said, “If anyone wants to be first, he must be the very last, and the servant of all.”

Peter was first among the Apostles, and he viewed himself as the servant of all - a “fellow elder” - just as Jesus had taught him to do. Peter’s unwillingness to trumpet his own importance is evidence that he truly was “first” among the Twelve.
 
Prove that the Firstborn doesn’t mean firstborn.
This was a very specific title in Jewish culture, and it was given to the one who opened the womb even if a second-born was never conceived.
Prove that those named as Jesus brothers are not blood.
Already done in a previous post above. Read the thread.
Prove that Mary and Jospeh never had sex.
This has been the consistent teaching of the Church for 2,000 years, and this is a Catholic forum. I have home court advantage. If you wish to deny a doctrine that even the Protestant Reformers Luther and Calvin accepted, then the burden of proof is on you.
The Bible says that they did not have relations UNTIL Jesus was born. Prove that the Scriptures don’t mean what they say.
The phrase heos hou has already been explained above. Read the thread.
 
The point here is that Scriptures don’t go to lengths to showcase and emphasize that Joseph and Mary had a normal marriage because nobody contested it in those times. And, they certainly don’t proclaim what Catholicism professes concerning the subject.
Um…do you know who Helvidius was?
 
Ok, let’s handle your claim here first. You claim that Martin Luther held exaclty to the same beliefs as Catholicsm regarding Mary. That is not true. Martin Luther had no problem regarding Mary as foremost of the saints and honoring her as the Mother of Christ. No problem there. However, Luther did Not ever profess in the same fashion as Catholics do that Mary Never had other children and that she was immaculately conceived etc. There is nothing “new” here in what the Scriptures say and what they don’t say.
There are four Marian dogmas…let’s see what Luther had to say on three of them:

**Martin Luther **

On the Immaculate Conception of Mary

Probably the most astonishing Marian belief of Luther is his acceptance of Mary’s Immaculate Conception, which wasn’t even definitively proclaimed as dogma by the Catholic Church until 1854. Concerning this question there is some dispute, over the technical aspects of medieval theories of conception and the soul, and whether or not Luther later changed his mind. Even some eminent Lutheran scholars, however, such as Arthur Carl Piepkorn (1907-73) of Concordia Seminary in St. Louis, maintain his unswerving acceptance of the doctrine. Luther’s words follow:

“It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin.” (Sermon: “On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God,” December ?] 1527; from Hartmann Grisar, S.J., *Luther, *authorised translation from the German by E.M. Lamond; edited by Luigi Cappadelta, London: Kegan Paul, Trench, Trubner, first edition, 1915, Vol. IV [of 6], p. 238; taken from the German Werke, Erlangen, 1826-1868, edited by J.G. Plochmann and J.A. Irmischer, 2nd ed. edited by L. Enders, Frankfurt, 1862 ff., 67 volumes; citation from 152, p. 58)
**“She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin - something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil.” **(Personal {“Little”} Prayer Book, 1522)

Later references to the Immaculate Conception appear in his House sermon for Christmas (1533) and *Against the Papacy of Rome *(1545).

On the Perpetual Virginity of Mary

“Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb…This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.”

“Christ…was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him…I am inclined to agree with those who declare that ‘brothers’ really mean ‘cousins’ here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.”

“A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ…”

“Scripture does not say or indicate that she later lost her virginity…When Matthew says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her…This babble…is without justification…he has neither noticed nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom.”

On the Assumption of Mary

In his sermon of August 15, 1522, the last time he preached on the Feast of the Assumption, he stated:

“There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know. And since the Holy Spirit has told us nothing about it, we can make of it no article of faith . . . It is enough to know that she lives in Christ.”

The fourth dogma is that Mary is the Mother of God…proclaimed by the Church in AD 431. I doubt Luther denied that one since it is sound doctrine.
 
**John 19:
25Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.

26When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

27Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.**

According to some posters on other forums, they say Mother mary did have other children. Ok, so if Mother mary had more children, than why did Jesus say the above words when Mother Mary’s other children could very well have taken care of her? Does it also mean that the other children were black sheep and not capable of taking care of their mother, or does it also mean that Mother Mary was not a good mother to them, but only to Jesus?
Well, Catholics say that Mary only had one child. Orthodox say the same. Protestants generally agree that Mary had more children. It is argued that when the bible speaks of the brothers of Jesus that it should be clear that Mary had more children. Catholics/Orthodox usually contend that the translation is poor and actually conveys some sort of cousin of Jesus or “spiritual” brother.

Both arguments are fairly coherent and are really completely reliant on whether the translation can be clearly defined. Many religions encounter this issue. They often have trouble being translated clearly from the ancient language to the various languages of the globe. It definitely makes sense to say that the translation is perhaps skewed and that the Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic actually conveys a cousin. This happens over translations. It also makes sense to say that, no, the translation is in it’s best form and that Mary gave Jesus brothers in the most biological sense. This is going on the assumption that the translation does not convey cousins and or “spiritual” brothers. Furthermore, if I remember reformation history correctly, reformation leaders were not as reverent to Mary as the Catholics/Orthodox were and thus you could use this knowledge to say that perhaps they came up with the “mary had more children” argument in an attempt to prove their irreverence towards Mary when Catholics questioned them. A way of saying “We don’t need to revere her because she did nothing special. She had many more children. Jesus just happened to be one of them.”

/my synopsis of the argument
 
What difference would it make if Mary had other children or not? By her having other children would it make her less then who she is? Would it change your outlook on what she stands for? Does it change the fact that she is the mother of Jesus? Would you look down at her because she had other children? Would it make her less holy and therefore unworthy of your praise? Would it change anything except the teachings that she never had other children? Would it mean that the teachings are wrong about her? Who decided to teach that Mary never had other children? What evidence is there that she did or didn’t have other children?
I guess what I’m trying to say is, “does it really matter, she is who she is eather way you look at it.”
Rev-

Here’s the problem…let’s say that you think it doesn’t matter one way or the other. Fine. Live and let live. But that’s not what really happens…

You know from being around these threads for awhile that SOME non-Catholics are not content to live and let live. They want to PROVE that Mary was a sinner, that she had other kids, etc. in order to undermine dogmas of the Catholic Church.

They do this because they want to prove that Catholicism is wrong, that the Church is not infallible, and that we should leave the Catholic Church and become (insert denomination here).

So, we end up talking about Mary a lot…not because WE bring it up but because y’all do.

See my point?
 
The real question is what is correct? Scripture doesn’t tell us that Mary didn’t have other children and in fact it names Jesus’ brothers in several verses.
Are you aware of the fact that Aramaic has no word for “cousin” and consequently, the Jews would have used the word adelphos or “brother” for any distant relation?

Are you aware of the fact that Lot is called the “brother” of Abraham even though we know that he was actually Abraham’s nephew?

Have you seen my post above which connects the dots on these alleged “brothers” you keep referring to?

Read the thread.
 
The Orthodox church and your church do NOT agree on much doctrine Tantum! This is the point. If the Early Church was given the correct discernment of the Holy Spirit then why do you both have different Canons, different doctrines and different views on things such as the sacrements, the saints and traditions?? You can’t claim to be correct for 2,000 years and have these profound differences. That horse won’t pull the sled anymore my freind.
This is an interesting perspective. Someone who is a member of a separated Protestant church with an invalid priesthood is questioning Catholics about another group of separated Christians…

One group splits off in the 13th century…another in the 16th…and one stays the course through it all.

Hmmm…I’m curious…whose canon do you follow? Theirs or ours? Or did you guys come up with a third of your own? 😉
 
Show me by Scripture where she had no other children besides Jesus. Who are the brothers shown by name in several verses?
Sheesh.

1. Jesus had a “brother” named James.

"Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?”(Matthew 13:55)
2. James, the Lord’s “brother”, is an apostle.

“Then, after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and remained with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. (Galatians 1:18-19)

3. There are two apostles named James.

“When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles: Simon (whom he named Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.”(Luke 6:13-16)
4. One James (the brother of John) is not the uterine brother of Jesus; his father is Zebedee.

James son of Zebedee and his brother John (to them he gave the name Boanerges, which means Sons of Thunder)” (Mark 3:17)
5
**. The other apostle named James is not the uterine brother of Jesus; his father is Alpheus.**

“And when it was day, he called his disciples, and chose from them twelve, whom he called apostles: Simon, whom he named Peter and Andrew his brother, and James and John and Philip and Bartholomew, and Matthew and James the son of Alpheus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, and Judas the son of James and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.” (Luke 6:13-16)

6. Therefore, neither apostle named James was a uterine brother of Jesus.

7. The man named Joseph (or Joses) is not the uterine brother of Jesus; his mother is Mary and his brother is James. Therefore, this Mary is the wife of Alphaeus.


“Many women were there, watching from a distance. They had followed Jesus from Galilee to care for his needs. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee’s sons.” (Matthew 27:55-56)

8. Judas is not a uterine brother of Jesus because he is the son of James.

“When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying. Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James.” (Acts 1:13)
  1. While Matthew 15:35 declares James, Joseph and Judas to be the “brothers” of Jesus, it has been demonstrated from scripture that they are NOT uterine brothers of the Lord. From this, it is apparent that scripture must be using the term “brothers” to mean relatives other than sons of Mary.
Now…deal with that, my friend.
 
Firstborn child?
Argument
But what about Matthew 1:24-25, and the claim Jesus was Mary’s “firstborn son” and that Joseph “knew her not until” Christ was born? Does Matthew here teach that Mary had other children?

Answer
Exodus 13:1-2 reveals something very important about the firstborn in Israel: “The Lord said to Moses, ‘Consecrate to me all the firstborn; whatever is the first to open the womb among the people of Israel, both of man and beast, is mine.’”

The “firstborn” were not given the title because there was a “second-born.” They were called “firstborn” at birth. Jesus being “firstborn” does not require that more siblings be born after him.
 
Did not have relations UNTIL Jesus was born?
Matthew 1:24-25: Until she brought forth a son

Matthew 1:24-25
24When Joseph woke up, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son.

The word *until *here just says what happened up to the time of Christ’s birth. It doesn’t imply anything about what happened after that, although our modern use of the word until seems to imply that. For an example of this, look at 2 Samuel 6:23, which says, “Michal the daughter of Saul had no children till the day of her death.” We’re obviously not supposed to assume that she had children after she died.

Other Examples of “Until” That Do Not Require Cessation of Action

Genesis 8:7
The raven “did not return TILL the waters were dried up…” Did the raven ever return?

Deuteronomy 34:6 (Knox)
No one knew the location of his grave “until this present day” But we know that no one has known it since that day either.

1 Maccabees 5:54
“…not one of them was slain TILL they had returned in peace.” Were Judas Maccabeus and his troops killed when they returned?

Luke 1:80
“And the child grew and became strong in spirit; and he lived in the desert until he appeared publicly to Israel.” The Greek word translated “until” in this passage is heos, the same word used in Matthew 1:25. The child spoken of is John the Baptist who, after as well as before he appeared in public, resided in the desert (cf. Matt. 3:1, Mark 1:3,4; Luke 3:2).

Romans 8:22
“…the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together UNTIL now.” Is it still groaning?

1 Corinthians 15:25
“For He must reign TILL He has put all enemies under His feet.” After all enemies are put away, will Christ be reigning?
 
Is the opposite true: if the non-catholic teaching about Mary not being a perpetual virgin, then the CC position is in error?
Of course.

This is why you folks go to such great lengths to prove that Mary was not ever-virgin. You want to convince us that the Church is in error and to justify your own continued separation from her.

On the other hand, if we’re right…😉
 
All you can do is insult when somebody asks a question you don’t like or can’t answer.

All that Jesus wants us to know is in the bible. So all the stuff Jesus said thats not written in the bible you have it written down somewhere? And you really know Jesus said it. The words of scripture point us to our Savior.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

2 Tim 3:16-17 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
If you want to see *sola scriptura *refuted, start another thread.
 
Excuse me!
Anyone who denies this does so not to serve the Lord.

There are those who serve the Lord but don’t believe she remained “ever virgin.”
So if you don’t believe the Catholic teachings you are not serving the Lord?
Where do you get this hog wash from?
That is not what he said. Read the post more carefully.
 
. Furthermore, if I remember reformation history correctly, reformation leaders were not as reverent to Mary as the Catholics/Orthodox were and thus you could use this knowledge to say that perhaps they came up with the “mary had more children” argument in an attempt to prove their irreverence towards Mary when Catholics questioned them. A way of saying “We don’t need to revere her because she did nothing special. She had many more children. Jesus just happened to be one of them.”
Pretty good up until the part about the Reformers. Here’s what they actually said:

Early Protestants on the Perpetual Virginity of Mary

Martin Luther (1483-1546)


“Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary’s virginal womb…This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.”

“Christ…was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him…I am inclined to agree with those who declare that ‘brothers’ really mean ‘cousins’ here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.”

“A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ…Scripture does not say or indicate that she later lost her virginity.”

“Scripture does not say or indicate that she later lost her virginity…When Matthew says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her…This babble…is without justification…he has neither noticed nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom.”

John Calvin (1509-1564)

Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s ‘brothers’ are sometimes mentioned. {Harmony of Matthew, Mark & Luke, sec. 39 (Geneva, 1562), vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, tr. William Pringle, Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55}

[On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called ‘first-born’; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation. {Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107}

Under the word ‘brethren’ the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity.
{Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, (7:3) }

Huldreich Zwingli (1484-1531)

He turns, in September 1522, to a lyrical defense of the perpetual virginity of the mother of Christ . . . To deny that Mary remained ‘inviolata’ before, during and after the birth of her Son, was to doubt the omnipotence of God . . . and it was right and profitable to repeat the angelic greeting - not prayer - ‘Hail Mary’ . . . God esteemed Mary above all creatures, including the saints and angels - it was her purity, innocence and invincible faith that mankind must follow. Prayer, however, must be . . . to God alone . . .
‘Fidei expositio,’ the last pamphlet from his pen . . . There is a special insistence upon the perpetual virginity of Mary.
{G. R. Potter, Zwingli, London: Cambridge Univ. Press, 1976, pp.88-9,395 / The Perpetual Virginity of Mary . . ., Sep. 17, 1522}

Zwingli had printed in 1524 a sermon on ‘Mary, ever virgin, mother of God.’
{Thurian, ibid., p.76}

I have never thought, still less taught, or declared publicly, anything concerning the subject of the ever Virgin Mary, Mother of our salvation, which could be considered dishonourable, impious, unworthy or evil . . . I believe with all my heart according to the word of holy gospel that this pure virgin bore for us the Son of God and that she remained, in the birth and after it, a pure and unsullied virgin, for eternity.{Thurian, ibid., p.76 / same sermon}

Heinrich Bullinger (1504-1575)

“The Virgin Mary…completely sanctified by the grace and blood of her only Son and abundantly endowed by the gift of the Holy Spirit and preferred to all…now lives happily with Christ in heaven and is called and remains ever-Virgin and Mother of God.”

John Wesley (1703-1791)

“I believe…he [Jesus Christ] was born of the blessed Virgin, who, as well after as shebrought him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin.”
 
What I find fascinating, in a sad way, is how Justy and some posters try so hard to prove that Mary and Joseph WERE intimate sexually? They are so emotionally-invested in the idea that Mary was a typical woman with sexual appetites and run-of-the-mill sexuality. I don’t see why the expended energy and desire to see Mary lowered in stock and holiness? It seems anti-Catholicism manifests itself in a need to just prove Catholicism wrong on every front, never yielding the truth to the Catholic Church. The Marian dogmas are supposedly wrong JUST because they came from the Catholic Church. If it’s Catholic it must be wrong seems to be the attitude. Why is it so imperative that Mary be lowered, proven a sexual creature? How does it edify and strengthen the spirituality of a Protestant like this to know Mary is like him? For me it’s quite the contrary, to know Mary is holy and was such an example of purity, it’s inspiring. This is an all-too-typical anti-Catholic, Protestant tune that I’ve heard played one too many times. The evidence, common sense, and history points toward Our Lord being the only son of Mary and Mary and Joseph being chaste. Just common sense would tell us that after giving birth to Christ Almighty, the King of Kings, perfection incarnate, infinite in power and might, the Savior of the World, why in the name of all that is holy would anyone, I mean anyone, want to try to follow that up!? Who would try to create a follow up to Jesus Christ!? It’s silly. And to think that Mary, whose womb was filled with God Himself, would ever want to know a man, a creature, sexually, when virginity was indeed a virtue that Jesus talked about as well as Paul, why is it so tough to imagine? Perhaps in this overly-sexualized, sex sex sex culture we fallen humans just cannot fathom virginity, perpetual virginity, and a person being content to bear the Son of Man and not need more? sigh…
 
What I find fascinating, in a sad way, is how Justy and some posters try so hard to prove that Mary and Joseph WERE intimate sexually? They are so emotionally-invested in the idea that Mary was a typical woman with sexual appetites and run-of-the-mill sexuality. I don’t see why the expended energy and desire to see Mary lowered in stock and holiness? It seems anti-Catholicism manifests itself in a need to just prove Catholicism wrong on every front, never yielding the truth to the Catholic Church. The Marian dogmas are supposedly wrong JUST because they came from the Catholic Church. If it’s Catholic it must be wrong seems to be the attitude. Why is it so imperative that Mary be lowered, proven a sexual creature? How does it edify and strengthen the spirituality of a Protestant like this to know Mary is like him? For me it’s quite the contrary, to know Mary is holy and was such an example of purity, it’s inspiring. This is an all-too-typical anti-Catholic, Protestant tune that I’ve heard played one too many times. The evidence, common sense, and history points toward Our Lord being the only son of Mary and Mary and Joseph being chaste. Just common sense would tell us that after giving birth to Christ Almighty, the King of Kings, perfection incarnate, infinite in power and might, the Savior of the World, why in the name of all that is holy would anyone, I mean anyone, want to try to follow that up!? Who would try to create a follow up to Jesus Christ!? It’s silly. And to think that Mary, whose womb was filled with God Himself, would ever want to know a man, a creature, sexually, when virginity was indeed a virtue that Jesus talked about as well as Paul, why is it so tough to imagine? Perhaps in this overly-sexualized, sex sex sex culture we fallen humans just cannot fathom virginity, perpetual virginity, and a person being content to bear the Son of Man and not need more? sigh…
:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:
 
What I find fascinating, in a sad way, is how Justy and some posters try so hard to prove that Mary and Joseph WERE intimate sexually? They are so emotionally-invested in the idea that Mary was a typical woman with sexual appetites and run-of-the-mill sexuality. I don’t see why the expended energy and desire to see Mary lowered in stock and holiness? It seems anti-Catholicism manifests itself in a need to just prove Catholicism wrong on every front, never yielding the truth to the Catholic Church. The Marian dogmas are supposedly wrong JUST because they came from the Catholic Church. If it’s Catholic it must be wrong seems to be the attitude. Why is it so imperative that Mary be lowered, proven a sexual creature? How does it edify and strengthen the spirituality of a Protestant like this to know Mary is like him? For me it’s quite the contrary, to know Mary is holy and was such an example of purity, it’s inspiring. This is an all-too-typical anti-Catholic, Protestant tune that I’ve heard played one too many times. The evidence, common sense, and history points toward Our Lord being the only son of Mary and Mary and Joseph being chaste. Just common sense would tell us that after giving birth to Christ Almighty, the King of Kings, perfection incarnate, infinite in power and might, the Savior of the World, why in the name of all that is holy would anyone, I mean anyone, want to try to follow that up!? Who would try to create a follow up to Jesus Christ!? It’s silly. And to think that Mary, whose womb was filled with God Himself, would ever want to know a man, a creature, sexually, when virginity was indeed a virtue that Jesus talked about as well as Paul, why is it so tough to imagine? Perhaps in this overly-sexualized, sex sex sex culture we fallen humans just cannot fathom virginity, perpetual virginity, and a person being content to bear the Son of Man and not need more? sigh…
:sad_yes::sad_yes:

Gurney, you know what I have been thinking about? About when I was growing up going to Free Methodist Sunday School, in the 1950s…This whole question never came up back then. Nobody (including my fundamentalist Baptist family members) ever suggested such a thing.
But the world has changed & not for the better. Nowadays, I see folks come on here who are just rubbing their hands together in unholy glee at the prospect of making Mary & Joseph out to be sex-crazed.
And then these same folks (& remember I am related to enough of them to know about it) moan & wail about “modern morals” & “the whole world has gone crazy”…But what they never seem to see, is that they are just the same themselves!! Its just that they are so proud of themselves that they don’t see hpw they are falling into the same trap as this wicked old unbelieving world.
So when folks like you & I try to talk about Mary consecrating herself to the service of the Lord, they sneer just like the atheists. When we say that Joseph was a righteous man, they can’t wait to proclaim that he must have been just like they are–obsessed with sex until they can’t believe what we have to say.
The fact that they are getting a chance to :slapfight::slapfight: at the Catholic Church is just so much gravy to them; what they really want, is to cast aspersions on the sweet pure Mother of Our Lord, and to mock St Joseph.

The truth is, that the reason folks doubt the perpetual virginity of Mary isn’t because of the doubtful phrasing of one word in Scripture; they wouldn’t dare make such a tenuous claim. No, the real reason is that their minds are so steeped in the ways of a sinful world, that the idea of a perpetual virgin makes them want to chortle behind their hands, like “good ol’ boys” laughing at a dirty joke.

Men (who are men) who call themselves Christian ought to be ashamed.
But the:imsorry: real shame is, that they don’t even:shrug: see why.

[bibledrb]1 Corinthians 10:12[/bibledrb]
 
:sad_yes::sad_yes:

Gurney, you know what I have been thinking about? About when I was growing up going to Free Methodist Sunday School, in the 1950s…This whole question never came up back then. Nobody (including my fundamentalist Baptist family members) ever suggested such a thing.
But the world has changed & not for the better. Nowadays, I see folks come on here who are just rubbing their hands together in unholy glee at the prospect of making Mary & Joseph out to be sex-crazed.
And then these same folks (& remember I am related to enough of them to know about it) moan & wail about “modern morals” & “the whole world has gone crazy”…But what they never seem to see, is that they are just the same themselves!! Its just that they are so proud of themselves that they don’t see hpw they are falling into the same trap as this wicked old unbelieving world.
So when folks like you & I try to talk about Mary consecrating herself to the service of the Lord, they sneer just like the atheists. When we say that Joseph was a righteous man, they can’t wait to proclaim that he must have been just like they are–obsessed with sex until they can’t believe what we have to say.
The fact that they are getting a chance to :slapfight::slapfight: at the Catholic Church is just so much gravy to them; what they really want, is to cast aspersions on the sweet pure Mother of Our Lord, and to mock St Joseph.

The truth is, that the reason folks doubt the perpetual virginity of Mary isn’t because of the doubtful phrasing of one word in Scripture; they wouldn’t dare make such a tenuous claim. No, the real reason is that their minds are so steeped in the ways of a sinful world, that the idea of a perpetual virgin makes them want to chortle behind their hands, like “good ol’ boys” laughing at a dirty joke.

Men (who are men) who call themselves Christian ought to be ashamed.
But the:imsorry: real shame is, that they don’t even:shrug: see why.

[bibledrb]1 Corinthians 10:12[/bibledrb]
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All you can do is insult when somebody asks a question you don’t like or can’t answer.

All that Jesus wants us to know is in the bible. So all the stuff Jesus said thats not written in the bible you have it written down somewhere? And you really know Jesus said it. The words of scripture point us to our Savior.

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It didnt look like he insulted you, are you wearing your feelings on your sleeve?

Your second point here is quite sad.😦

“all Jesus wants us to know is the Bible.” Wow, I’ve never heard it put that way before, sad indeed. There is so much more if only you could see truth.

The gospels even reads that “all is not written” yet you cannot or will not allow the truth in, truly sad.😦

I pity people who resist truth, and for no reason but to prove the Catholic Church wrong; without succes I might add.
 
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