Did Mother Mary have other children?

[Dokimas]

Good to see you agree that the verse could mean Joseph and Mary could have consumated their marriage. You’re the first to admit it. Thank you. Here are more verses with the construction you were speaking about.​

Mt 1:25 and did not know her till <2193> <3739> she had brought forth her firstborn Son. And he called His name JESUS.
Mt 14:22 Immediately Jesus made His disciples get into the boat and go before Him to the other side, while <2193> <3739> He sent the multitudes away. The disciples didn’t stay in the boat indefinately. Mt 17:9 Now as they came down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, “Tell the vision to no one until <2193> <3739> the Son of Man is risen from the dead.”
Mt 18:30 "And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till <2193> <3739> he should pay the debt. The man did not have to stay in jail after the debt was paid.
Mt 18:34 "And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until <2193> <3739> he should pay all that was due to him. Same as last verse.
Mt 26:36 Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to the disciples, “Sit here while <2193> <3739> I go and pray over there.” The disciples did not sit indefinately. Lu 12:50 "But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till <2193> <3739> it is accomplished! He didn’t stay distressed.
Lu 12:59 “I tell you, you shall not depart from there till <2193> <3739> you have paid the very last mite.” Same as above.
Lu 13:21 “It is like leaven, which <3739> a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till <2193> <3739> it was all leavened.” After the bread was baked, the leaven wasn’t still ‘hidden’.
Lu 24:49 “Behold, I send the Promise of My Father upon you; but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until <2193> you <3739> are endued with power from on high.” The disciples didn’t stay in Jerusalem after they were endued with power.
Joh 13:38 Jesus answered him, "Will you lay down your life for My sake? Most assuredly, I say to you, the rooster shall not crow till < 2193> <3739> you have denied Me three times. The roster crowed after Peter denied the Lord three times.
Ac 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day, having been purified with them, entered the temple to announce the expiration of the days of purification, at which time <2193> <3739> an offering should be made for each one of them.
Ac 23:12 And when it was day, some of the Jews banded together and bound themselves under an oath, saying that they would neither eat nor drink till <2193> <3739> they had killed Paul. **Those bad guys were intending to eat and drink after they killed Paul. **A little aside: I’ll bet the men went back on their word or they starved themseves to death (they did not kill Paul.
Ac 23:14 They came to the chief priests and elders, and said, "We have bound ourselves under a great oath that we will eat nothing until <2193> <3739> we have killed Paul. Same.
Ac 23:21 “But do not yield to them, for more than forty of them lie in wait for him, men who have bound themselves by an oath that they will neither eat nor drink till <2193> <3739> they have killed him; and now they are ready, waiting for the promise from you.” Same.
Ac 25:21 “But when Paul appealed to be reserved for the decision of Augustus, I commanded him to be kept till <2193> <3739> I could send him to Caesar.” Paul wasn’t perpetually kept.
2Pe 1:19 And so we have the prophetic word confirmed, which you do well to heed as a light that shines in a dark place, until < 2193> <3739> the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts;

 

[Dokimas]

rev First of ally you are undermine the dogmas of the Catholic church, and why do uu say you believe on your opinion you know what they say about opinions

If dogmas can be undermined then they are not very solid.

 

[Dokimas]

First of all, I never asked you which charitable things you do… That is between you and the Lord above. One should never boast like the pharisees who “wore their good deeds on their shoulders for all to see”.

Since you asked however, I’ve been homeless since 2008, and my wife and I lived out of a tent for most of 2009… My children have suffered greatly and I am now in recovery mode… I openly admit that It is all due to my own faults and failures…
Today however, I work for the Lord Full-Time. since you asked.

QUOTE]
Sorry to hear about your situation. There must be some church help where you live.?.?.?
God be with and bless you and your family. We all should pray for you and yours.

 

[Dokimas]

No. I’m protecting the Church from those who wish to destroy her. It’s my duty to spread God’s truth, as well as to correct those who attempt to spread lies.

You say you’re protecting the CC from being destroyed: I thought the gates of hell will not prevail against the CC? If the CC is the One and only True church, then it doesn’t need anyones help to keep it from being destroyed.​

It is the duty of all Christians to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

If dogmas can be undermined then they are not very solid.

Well, that depends. You’ll find plenty of atheists, for example, who think that they have ‘successfully’ undermined Christian dogmas. I don’t think they have, but **they **think they have.

I also think that Bill might have meant to say, “seek to undermine” rather than undermine alone, but I’m not Bill so I don’t know that for sure.

I think the Marian dogmas are absolutely solid because they’re true, but you already knew that (I mean, you knew I think they’re true because I’ve said so quite often). I don’t mind (intellectually speaking) people trying to undermine beliefs that I personally uphold provided that they are sincere and honorable, because sooner or later if they are sincere, God will lead them to the truth. I do mind those who are not sincere (and I’m not accusing anybody here, far from it), and I also mind those who are sincere in their own belief but, um, unscrupulous about their methods (and again, I’m not accusing anybody here of such). And of course, while intellectually speaking I enjoy free speech as much as the next person, ‘spiritually’ speaking it always pains me to see people not only in error, but positively glorying in their error, embracing their error, and deliberately blinding themselves to truth. Again, I can only trust in God because I know that all who seek Him with a sincere heart will be led to the Truth.

That’s why I have the deepest conviction that the majority of people who come to these forums in search of truth–even the ones with whom I might have the strongest disagreements on a given subject --are one day going to be united in Christ as I myself hope to be.

 

[jericho777]

What Scripture cathloic has to say from the Bible.

Matt. 10:1,40 - Jesus declares to His apostles, “he who receives you, receives Me, and he who rejects you, rejects Me and the One who sent Me.” Jesus freely gives His authority to the apostles in order for them to effectively convert the world.

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - the apostles are given Christ’s authority to make visible decisions on earth that will be ratified in heaven. God raises up humanity in Christ by exalting his chosen leaders and endowing them with the authority and grace they need to bring about the conversion of all. Without a central authority in the Church, there would be chaos (as there is in Protestantism).

Luke 9:1; 10:19 - Jesus gives the apostles authority over the natural and the supernatural (diseases, demons, serpents, and scorpions).

Luke 10:16 - Jesus tells His apostles, “he who hears you, hears Me.” When we hear the bishops’ teaching on the faith, we hear Christ Himself.

Luke 22:29 - the Father gives the kingdom to the Son, and the Son gives the kingdom to the apostles. The gift is transferred from the Father to the Son to the apostles.

Num 16:28 - the Father’s authority is transferred to Moses. Moses does not speak on his own. This is a real transfer of authority.

John 5:30 - similarly, Jesus as man does nothing of His own authority, but He acts under the authority of the Father.

John 7:16-17 - Jesus as man states that His authority is not His own, but from God. He will transfer this authority to other men.

John 8:28 - Jesus says He does nothing on His own authority. Similarly, the apostles will do nothing on their own authority. Their authority comes from God.

John 12:49 - The father’s authority is transferred to the Son. The Son does not speak on his own. This is a transfer of divine authority.

John 13:20 - Jesus says, “he who receives anyone who I send, receives Me.” He who receives the apostles, receives Christ Himself. He who rejects the apostles and their successors, rejects Christ.

John 14:10 - Jesus says the Word He speaks is not His own authority, but from the Father. The gift is from the Father to Jesus to the apostles.

John 16:14-15 - what the Father has, the Son has, and the Son gives it to the apostles. The authority is not lessened or mitigated.

John 17:18; 20:21 - as the Father sends the Son, the Son sends the apostles. The apostles have divinely appointed authority.

Acts 20:28 - the apostles are shepherds and guardians appointed by the Holy Spirit / 1 Peter 2:25 - Jesus is the Shepherd and Guardian. The apostles, by the power of the Spirit, share Christ’s ministry and authority.

Jer. 23:1-8; Ezek. 34:1-10 - the shepherds must shepherd the sheep, or they will be held accountable by God.

Eph. 2:20 - the Christian faith is built upon the foundation of the apostles. The word “foundation” proves that it does not die with apostles, but carries on through succession.

Eph. 2:20; Rev. 21:9,14 - the words “household,” “Bride of the Lamb,” the “new Jerusalem” are all metaphors for the Church whose foundation is the apostles.

Hi Bill
It seems the crux of the argument you are trying to make is that believers in Christ have to go through the church to get to Christ. Where as Christ tells us to come directly to Him no middle men. Mt 11:28 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. He Him self is the mediator of the new covenant and our salvation.

The Holy Spirit was given directly to believers to lead and guide them. The Holy Spirit also bestows gifts and authority to all believers for the good of all believers directly no middlemen. It seems you are trying to block access to the gifts by having an organizational higher achy.

Jude ( the brother of James the Lords brother)1:3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. Tells us as believing individuals we have authority and a duty to contend for the faith that was entrusted to us as individuals the living body of Christ.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Hi Bill
It seems the crux of the argument you are trying to make is that believers in Christ have to go through the church to get to Christ. Where as Christ tells us to come directly to Him no middle men. Mt 11:28 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. He Him self is the mediator of the new covenant and our salvation.

The Holy Spirit was given directly to believers to lead and guide them. The Holy Spirit also bestows gifts and authority to all believers for the good of all believers directly no middlemen. It seems you are trying to block access to the gifts by having an organizational higher achy.

Jude ( the brother of James the Lords brother)1:3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. Tells us as believing individuals we have authority and a duty to contend for the faith that was entrusted to us as individuals the living body of Christ.

Ok, now can you explain to me how two groups of people can each claim the Holy Spirit is guiding them, if they come to completely different conclusions (from Scripture?)

The Holy Spirit can’t contradict Himself, can He?

Here we go. John 6.

Catholics, Orthodox, and some Protestants say that John 6 scripturally indicates that the Eucharist is truly the Body and Blood of Christ.
And many Protestants say it is NOT.

Both groups claim the Holy Spirit has led them.

Which group is correct? And what is the ‘proof’ that you can authoritatively demonstrate that shows which group is correct?

 

[Bill_Pick]

First of all, I never asked you which charitable things you do… That is between you and the Lord above. One should never boast like the pharisees who “wore their good deeds on their shoulders for all to see”.

Since you asked however, I’ve been homeless since 2008, and my wife and I lived out of a tent for most of 2009… My children have suffered greatly and I am now in recovery mode… I openly admit that It is all due to my own faults and failures…
Today however, I work for the Lord Full-Time. since you asked.

No. I’m protecting the Church from those who wish to destroy her. It’s my duty to spread God’s truth, as well as to correct those who attempt to spread lies.

One thing you can say aout rev he will blow his horn

 

[Bill_Pick]

Hi Bill
It seems the crux of the argument you are trying to make is that believers in Christ have to go through the church to get to Christ. Where as Christ tells us to come directly to Him no middle men. Mt 11:28 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. He Him self is the mediator of the new covenant and our salvation.

The Holy Spirit was given directly to believers to lead and guide them. The Holy Spirit also bestows gifts and authority to all believers for the good of all believers directly no middlemen. It seems you are trying to block access to the gifts by having an organizational higher achy.

Jude ( the brother of James the Lords brother)1:3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. Tells us as believing individuals we have authority and a duty to contend for the faith that was entrusted to us as individuals the living body of Christ.

James was not a brother of Jesus this was on CBS and 60 min as a Hoax and BTW you said in one of your post that its has has to be in the BIBLE Well not all is in the Bible did you miss John2125

 

[TEPO]

You say you’re protecting the CC from being destroyed: I thought the gates of hell will not prevail against the CC? If the CC is the One and only True church, then it doesn’t need anyones help to keep it from being destroyed…

Most of the CC are already gone from this earth… for now… So in a sense, you’re kind of right -Its already too late for the gates of hell to prevail against the CC. However It is the duty of every Catholic to protect the truths of the Church, so that those alive today, and those of future generations, will have the opportunity for discipleship in the Church.

If we were to give up, and say: fine Mary had kids, and Church teaching was a lie, then what reason would God have for allowing the evils of this world to continue, as the Church would be complete ? The future of the Church **on earth **would be destroyed.

So when I say “protecting the CC from being destroyed”, I mean here on earth today.(before the return of Jesus)

-It is the duty of all Christians to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Bill_Pick]

And I will pour out upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace, and of prayers: and they shall look upon me, whom they have pierced: and they shall mourn for him as one mourneth for an only son, and they shall grieve over him, as the manner is to grieve for the death of the firstborn.

 

[jericho777]

Ok, now can you explain to me how two groups of people can each claim the Holy Spirit is guiding them, if they come to completely different conclusions (from Scripture?)

The Holy Spirit can’t contradict Himself, can He?

Here we go. John 6.

Catholics, Orthodox, and some Protestants say that John 6 scripturally indicates that the Eucharist is truly the Body and Blood of Christ.
And many Protestants say it is NOT.

Both groups claim the Holy Spirit has led them.

Which group is correct? And what is the ‘proof’ that you can authoritatively demonstrate that shows which group is correct?

I can only tell you about our church and others like it. I have seen with my own eyes demon spirits manifest and be cast out, you want talk about the hair on the back of your neck standing up. People are prayed for and get healed. Lives are changed souls are saved. People become who God wants them to be.

God is not a respecter of persons and gives His Spirit freely to all who believe.

Jesus was demonstrating the truth about the passover. Communion was instituted at the first passover. Jesus revealed what they had been celebrating for 1800 years was really pointing to Him

 

[TEPO]

It is the duty of all Christians to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Thank you for doing the good work of the Lord… So you’ve come here to CAF exactly why now?

newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm
“**The primary purpose of those actual graces which God bestows upon those outside the Church is to draw them within the fold.” **

 

[Bill_Pick]

Can we please get this back on tread,The tread was did Mary have And I will pour out upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace, and of prayers: and they shall look upon me, whom they have pierced: and they shall mourn for him as one mourneth for an only son, and they shall grieve over him, as the manner is to grieve for the death of the firstborn.
other Children

 

[Bill_Pick]

If dogmas can be undermined then they are not very solid.

DoKimas, You post talking about the word until ,you said some thing about the OT and the NT and I can not rembmer what you said can you help me

 

[Tantum_ergo]

I can only tell you about our church and others like it. I have seen with my own eyes demon spirits manifest and be cast out, you want talk about the hair on the back of your neck standing up. People are prayed for and get healed. Lives are changed souls are saved. People become who God wants them to be.

God is not a respecter of persons and gives His Spirit freely to all who believe.

Jesus was demonstrating the truth about the passover. Communion was instituted at the first passover. Jesus revealed what they had been celebrating for 1800 years was really pointing to Him

No, you aren’t answering my question.

The Holy Spirit does not contradict Himself.

One large group of Christians (Catholics, Orthodox, and some Protestants) say that the Holy Spirit has guided them to understand John 6 as teaching, Scripturally and authoritatively, that Jesus commands us to eat us real, true, flesh and blood. This teaching is continuous from the time of the apostles.

Another smaller group of Christians claims, no, John 6 is only speaking of a ‘symbolic’ eating. They likewise claim the Holy Spirit. Some of them are upfront that the teaching is much more ‘recent’ than the first, usually claiming that the first teaching was due to a ‘misunderstanding’ which they have ‘corrected’ to what Jesus supposedly ‘would have taught’. Some of them are less upfront, claiming anything from that their teaching was the ‘real teaching’ but was deliberately ‘changed’ by corrupt Christians (usually ‘Roman’ because somehow the poor Orthodox always get ignored) to claiming that they themselves are the ‘real’ apostolicd descendents who had to ‘hide’ from the evil antichrists (ALWAYS Roman in this case) who have persecuted them from day 1, or AD 33, or whatever.

Now I want you to tell me --it’s a simple answer–which of the two groups (both of whom claim to be led by the Holy Spirit) is giving the correct teaching. only one of the teachings can possibly be correct. Which is it–and how do you KNOW?

If you can’t answer, then you have conclusively proven that there is simply no ‘way’ for the average Protestant claiming Sola Scriptura or “Bible’ believing” and “Spirit-led” to authoritatively demonstrate that the Holy Spirit leads them.

 

[Bill_Pick]

Hi Bill
It seems the crux of the argument you are trying to make is that believers in Christ have to go through the church to get to Christ. Where as Christ tells us to come directly to Him no middle men. Mt 11:28 "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. He Him self is the mediator of the new covenant and our salvation.

The Holy Spirit was given directly to believers to lead and guide them. The Holy Spirit also bestows gifts and authority to all believers for the good of all believers directly no middlemen. It seems you are trying to block access to the gifts by having an organizational higher achy.

Jude ( the brother of James the Lords brother)1:3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. Tells us as believing individuals we have authority and a duty to contend for the faith that was entrusted to us as individuals the living body of Christ./QUOT

James is NOT the brother of Jesus,Jesus had no brother or sisters,If you watch any TV this was report by CBS and FOX to be a hoax,they had a box That said this is James the brother Jesus and it was wrong then and it is still wrong.Mary the Mother of OUR LORD DID NOT HAVE OTHER CHILDREN

 

[Bill_Pick]

No, you aren’t answering my question.

The Holy Spirit does not contradict Himself.

One large group of Christians (Catholics, Orthodox, and some Protestants) say that the Holy Spirit has guided them to understand John 6 as teaching, Scripturally and authoritatively, that Jesus commands us to eat us real, true, flesh and blood. This teaching is continuous from the time of the apostles.

Another smaller group of Christians claims, no, John 6 is only speaking of a ‘symbolic’ eating. They likewise claim the Holy Spirit. Some of them are upfront that the teaching is much more ‘recent’ than the first, usually claiming that the first teaching was due to a ‘misunderstanding’ which they have ‘corrected’ to what Jesus supposedly ‘would have taught’. Some of them are less upfront, claiming anything from that their teaching was the ‘real teaching’ but was deliberately ‘changed’ by corrupt Christians (usually ‘Roman’ because somehow the poor Orthodox always get ignored) to claiming that they themselves are the ‘real’ apostolicd descendents who had to ‘hide’ from the evil antichrists (ALWAYS Roman in this case) who have persecuted them from day 1, or AD 33, or whatever.

Now I want you to tell me --it’s a simple answer–which of the two groups (both of whom claim to be led by the Holy Spirit) is giving the correct teaching. only one of the teachings can possibly be correct. Which is it–and how do you KNOW?

If you can’t answer, then you have conclusively proven that there is simply no ‘way’ for the average Protestant claiming Sola Scriptura or “Bible’ believing” and “Spirit-led” to authoritatively demonstrate that the Holy Spirit leads them.

YOU are wrong the Cathloic CHurch has alway said Jesus was not talking synoblic It is the other 32,000 that said Jesus was speak symoblic,The CC has had it right for 2000 years so you need to get it right

 

[jericho777]

No, you aren’t answering my question.

The Holy Spirit does not contradict Himself.

One large group of Christians (Catholics, Orthodox, and some Protestants) say that the Holy Spirit has guided them to understand John 6 as teaching, Scripturally and authoritatively, that Jesus commands us to eat us real, true, flesh and blood. This teaching is continuous from the time of the apostles.

Another smaller group of Christians claims, no, John 6 is only speaking of a ‘symbolic’ eating. They likewise claim the Holy Spirit. Some of them are upfront that the teaching is much more ‘recent’ than the first, usually claiming that the first teaching was due to a ‘misunderstanding’ which they have ‘corrected’ to what Jesus supposedly ‘would have taught’. Some of them are less upfront, claiming anything from that their teaching was the ‘real teaching’ but was deliberately ‘changed’ by corrupt Christians (usually ‘Roman’ because somehow the poor Orthodox always get ignored) to claiming that they themselves are the ‘real’ apostolicd descendents who had to ‘hide’ from the evil antichrists (ALWAYS Roman in this case) who have persecuted them from day 1, or AD 33, or whatever.

Now I want you to tell me --it’s a simple answer–which of the two groups (both of whom claim to be led by the Holy Spirit) is giving the correct teaching. only one of the teachings can possibly be correct. Which is it–and how do you KNOW?

If you can’t answer, then you have conclusively proven that there is simply no ‘way’ for the average Protestant claiming Sola Scriptura or “Bible’ believing” and “Spirit-led” to authoritatively demonstrate that the Holy Spirit leads them.

I will not judge the work of the Holy Spirit. Like I said we have seen the manifestation of the Holy Spirit at our church and others like it. The Holy Spirit is always welcome to do His work at our church. The fruits of the Spirit are evident so we know He is present.

I do not want to argue about communion we take it in obedience to the command of Christ in reverence. It is a solemn ocasion. We must not take it in an unworthy manner.

This takes place at our church.
1 Chor 12:7-11 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,a and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.

 

[Dokimas]

Most of the CC are already gone from this earth… for now… So in a sense, you’re kind of right -Its already too late for the gates of hell to prevail against the CC. However It is the duty of every Catholic to protect the truths of the Church, so that those alive today, and those of future generations, will have the opportunity for discipleship in the Church.

If we were to give up, and say: fine Mary had kids, and Church teaching was a lie, then what reason would God have for allowing the evils of this world to continue, as the Church would be complete ? The future of the Church **on earth **would be destroyed.

So when I say “protecting the CC from being destroyed”, I mean here on earth today.(before the return of Jesus)

Us Bible only people have it easier than you, we only have to ‘defend’ the Bible. You have to defend Sacred Tradition.