Did Muhammed and the Koran teach violence against infidels, or didn't he.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Ceil-1
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
C

Ceil-1

Guest
Our priest stood up there today and stated he did not. He stated that the Koran has been misinterpreted. I had to bite my tongue to keep myself from remarking to my son that he doesn’t know what he is talking about. Does he?

Does anyone out there know specifically what Muhammed did teach about “jihad”? Does the Koran specifically teach violence
and coersion against “infidels”? I am understanding that it does.

The way I understand it is that he couldn’t get an audience until someone thought to use his ideas to, in a sense, resurrect the Arab peoples and inspire them to rise up and conquer their enemies. This is what people really hooked onto. He went along
to get along, from what I understand, and it has taken up a life of
it’s own.

I do believe that the Islamic religion derives it’s popularity from ethnocentric motives. I believe this is why many men whose heritage is Middle-Eastern/Northern African are so attracted to it. With Christianity, they are just “one of the gang”. I believe this is why Mormonism is so popular as well. It empowers the guys.

Anyway, enough prattling, does anyone have an expertise in this area that can shed light on this? Thanks.
 
I’m sorry, a poorly written title. I meant to say, Did Muhammed teach violence against infidels in the Koran?
 
Ceil-1 said:
Our priest stood up there today and stated he did not. He stated that the Koran has been misinterpreted. I had to bite my tongue to keep myself from remarking to my son that he doesn’t know what he is talking about. Does he?

Does anyone out there know specifically what Muhammed did teach about “jihad”? Does the Koran specifically teach violence
and coersion against “infidels”? I am understanding that it does.

The way I understand it is that he couldn’t get an audience until someone thought to use his ideas to, in a sense, resurrect the Arab peoples and inspire them to rise up and conquer their enemies. This is what people really hooked onto. He went along
to get along, from what I understand, and it has taken up a life of
it’s own.

I do believe that the Islamic religion derives it’s popularity from ethnocentric motives. I believe this is why many men whose heritage is Middle-Eastern/Northern African are so attracted to it. With Christianity, they are just “one of the gang”. I believe this is why Mormonism is so popular as well. It empowers the guys.

Anyway, enough prattling, does anyone have an expertise in this area that can shed light on this? Thanks.
Click to expand...
According to some the word “infidel” cannot find its roots in the Arabic language. So I do no think so. But then again, the Koran does teach to “kill the unbeliever” and not to “befriend Jews or Christians” but I am still asking Muslims how to interpret this so I can use it the right way. But as far as I know it does.
 
Jihad in the "Quran"

Allah orders Muslims in the Quran to terrorize non-Muslims on His behalf:
  • "Strike terror (into the hearts of) the enemies of Allah and your enemies" Surah 8:60
  • "Fight (kill) them (non-Muslims), and Allah will punish (torment) them by your hands, cover them with shame" Surah 9:14
  • "I will instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah" Surah 8:12, 17
I’m sure someone will claim the translation from Arabic is incorrect. But nothing seems to be lost in translation when we consider that bin Laden is fluent in Arabic.
 
He doesn’t advocate violence against the infidels for it’s own sake, that I’m aware. But on the other hand, he certainly does not condemn it. In Islam, the life of a “kafir” is worth less than that of a Muslim. In fact, non-muslims are considered unclean to them.
 
Image_of_God said:
According to some the word “infidel” cannot find its roots in the Arabic language. So I do no think so. But then again, the Koran does teach to “kill the unbeliever” and not to “befriend Jews or Christians” but I am still asking Muslims how to interpret this so I can use it the right way. But as far as I know it does.
Click to expand...
This is a question I have too. I even went as far as to get me a copy of the Koran and read it. It is a very confusing book, I thiink Im going to find me a mosque near by and ask for the people there to help me understand their book. In one sentence it says Christians and Jews bad, then in another it sounds like it is saying that it was talking about those who dont followthe religion correctly, then it says somewhere else near by that Christians and Jews and Muslims follow the same God and as long as they live in fear of Him they are all good. I’m trying to get an answer to that question. It comes down to the reagion and who taught them I guess, because some Muslims like many American Muslims and Brits and some incertain areas don’t support the militaristic views that are gaining power in the Muslim world and say that it can’t be justified in the Koran. Some clerics say not justified in Koran others say it does, not having any set teachings, but open interpretation on suras causes great division. I know people can and do manipulate what it says in the Koran and make it sound like it is good, like Binladen. The religion has been rather a peaceful religion throughout history (the political conquests of the leaders of Islamic nations don’t include the religion as being warlike if anyone was going to say so) and had some very good people in it who were not supporter of death and suffering. I went off topic and I should probably stop now before I get any farther off topic.
 
Like any sola scriptura religion, it comes does come down to interpretation–some interpret it as a peaceful religion and some as endorsing violence. Which is the true interpretation? Well, I assume the guy who wrote it, Muhammed, would be the best place to look–and he personally raided caravans and waged wars against unbelievers…
 
Eden said:
Jihad in the "Quran"

Allah orders Muslims in the Quran to terrorize non-Muslims on His behalf:
  • "Strike terror (into the hearts of) the enemies of Allah and your enemies" Surah 8:60
  • "Fight (kill) them (non-Muslims), and Allah will punish (torment) them by your hands, cover them with shame" Surah 9:14
  • "I will instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah" Surah 8:12, 17
I’m sure someone will claim the translation from Arabic is incorrect. But nothing seems to be lost in translation when we consider that bin Laden is fluent in Arabic.
Click to expand...
Why is Moses given the title Muslim as a jew if he is considered an infidel? They say those who aren’t strict followers of the Book and who pervert what it says are infidels, but not Christians and Jews in themselves, at least that is something I have come to in my reading of the Koran. I could argue it either way from waht I have read it is a hard book to get a direct answer from. It seems to contradict itself, one point says Christian and Jews follow the same God, then that Muslims are the only ones and Christians are nonbeleivers, I get a headache whenever I read it.
 
Genesis315 said:
Like any sola scriptura religion, it comes does come down to interpretation–some interpret it as a peaceful religion and some as endorsing violence. Which is the true interpretation? Well, I assume the guy who wrote it, Muhammed, would be the best place to look–and he personally raided caravans and waged wars against unbelievers…
Click to expand...
So did the jews when God told them too to start a place for the faith to grow and florish. Not that I support it, but interesting similarity that people tend to forget.
 
Salaam,

I have heard that the Qu’ran says that we’re “chill”.
I’ve also heard that the Qu’ran says that we’re “about to get effed up.”

Which one is it? Does the order in which the Suras were written have to do with it? Perhaps Mohammed changed his mind? Maybe God changed his mind? Or maybe Gabriel is really good at the game telephone! (This last prospect would be a good one for our Protestant bretheren when arguing against the Immeculate Conception. ;))

I’d like to hear what a Muslim or Qu’ranic scholar has to say about the documents of the Qu’ran, its chronology, its historicity, etc… Anyone?

God love you.
 
About the Jews and what happened in their era to promised land as compared to Islam and violence. They were led out of 400 hundred of slavery and bondage and choosen by God to be delivered to a promised land that others occupied whom worshipped false Gods and were not in his ways. The 12 tribes of Israel from these Jewish decendants are of these chosen ones, were given the green light from above. His rules and not ours, in effect. So, that is a difference that makes it non comparable to what Islamists do or have done to defeat their rivals for land etc.

Note #2: Islam has a God that is very much like ‘The Master’ and the followers are not his children, seems like it is missing real love.
Our God is our father and loves us all and would treat us as his children, even when we are unworthy(given repentance and such), huge difference between these religions.

Know God and know the way.
 
I have read the Quran and it contains plenty of ayat that encourage violence. The hadith do also. Islam needs to face this and repudiate all religious violence, just as the pope requested.
 
Here’s a link from Islam Denounces Terrorism

islamdenouncesterrorism.com/people_of_the_book_the_muslims.html

and another written from an Islamic perspective.

experts.about.com/q/Islam-947/People-Book.htm

and from Dummies.com

God is wrathful and unloving in the Koran

"Some critics say that the Koran mentions the concept of love only twice. In fact, the Book mentions the concept of love about a hundred times, if such statistics are really the essence of the message.

After declaring God’s universality, the Koran describes God as “most Merciful, most Compassionate” (1:3). In fact, every single Surah except one begins with this declaration about the divine nature.

God is also known in the Scripture as “Full of Loving-Kindness” (11:90; 85:14). It is with the attribute of divine Love that the Koran most often seeks to directly create a relationship with humanity by encouraging those actions that bring God’s love and discouraging those actions that extinguish God’s love.

Without doubt, the Koran also mentions God’s wrath for those who reject faith after clear signs have come to them, and upon those who are bent on spreading evil and corruption on earth. But, as Prophet Muhammad said while quoting God himself, “My Mercy prevails over My wrath.”"

The first two links are the most clarifying.
 
Ceil-1 said:
Our priest stood up there today and stated he did not. He stated that the Koran has been misinterpreted. I had to bite my tongue to keep myself from remarking to my son that he doesn’t know what he is talking about. Does he?
Click to expand...
No, he doesn’t have a clue.

I speak Arabic and I read the Koran every day (but I don’t speak, read and write it well enough to read the Koran in Arabic). Nearly every single page of the Koran is violence against infidels and other (unsatisfactory) Muslims. The anti-semitism in the Koran is astounding. the whole Koran is a sick tome of diabolical violence, vengeance and depravity appealing to the lowest, basest instincts of fallen man.

Any notion of God’s love for man is totally absent from the Koran.

No, your priest hasn’t a clue whatsoever.

If you doubt my word, get yourself a Koran and start reading. You will be astounded by the diabolical ugliness and ungodliness therein.
 
Thorondir said:
No, he doesn’t have a clue.

I speak Arabic and I read the Koran every day (but I don’t speak, read and write it well enough to read the Koran in Arabic). Nearly every single page of the Koran is violence against infidels and other (unsatisfactory) Muslims. The anti-semitism in the Koran is astounding. the whole Koran is a sick tome of diabolical violence, vengeance and depravity appealing to the lowest, basest instincts of fallen man.

Any notion of God’s love for man is totally absent from the Koran.

No, your priest hasn’t a clue whatsoever.

If you doubt my word, get yourself a Koran and start reading. You will be astounded by the diabolical ugliness and ungodliness therein.
Click to expand...
And if you want a more balanced opinion, read the first two links I provided above. I’m a professor of history at a private college, I work with several Muslims, and my best friend, who was my roommate in college, is a Muslim. I have also travelled extensively in the Muslim world.

Violence is only allowed in very rare cases. In general, the “People of the Book” (Christians and Jews) are required to be protected by Muslims, until they willingly convert of their own accord.
 
Rolltide said:
And if you want a more balanced opinion, read the first two links I provided above.
Click to expand...
LOL! That’s called Taqqiya (the Islamic VIRTUE of lying to the infidel to make it easier to kill or subdue him).

I am fully aware of this “virtue” and have dealt with it often enough to not be fooled by it again. Alhamdulilah!

Maa selami, sahibi
 
Eden said:
Jihad in the "Quran"

Allah orders Muslims in the Quran to terrorize non-Muslims on His behalf:
  • "Strike terror (into the hearts of) the enemies of Allah and your enemies" Surah 8:60
  • "Fight (kill) them (non-Muslims), and Allah will punish (torment) them by your hands, cover them with shame" Surah 9:14
  • "I will instil terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them It is not ye who slew them; it was Allah" Surah 8:12, 17
I’m sure someone will claim the translation from Arabic is incorrect. But nothing seems to be lost in translation when we consider that bin Laden is fluent in Arabic.
Click to expand...
**Here are some other Quranic Verses concerning JIhad

"Strive Hard against them a mighty striving with it (Surah 25:52)

“And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you and do not exceed this limit” (Surah 2:190)

“And they will not cease fighting with you until they turn your back from your religion if they can” (Surah 2:217)

"And fight with them until there is no persecution and all religions are only for Allah. (Surah 8:39) **
This verse is a little ambigous. Does it mean that unless all religions convert to Islam that they should fight or does it mean that all religions can still maintain there belief systems and that only God knows.

"And if they incline to peace, do thou incline to it and trust in Allah…And if they intend to decieve thee, then surely Allah is sufficient for thee." (8:61,62)

“He it is who has sent his messenger with the guidance and the true religion that he may make it overcome all (other) religions.” (61:9)

If this verse doesnt reek of exclusivity i dont know what does.

Here are some verses from the Hadith as well

*"Imran ibn Husain said, the Messenger of ALlah, said: "A party of my community shall not cease fighting for the Truth–they shall be triumphant over their oppnents. (Ad Msh. 18.)

Sahl reported, He heard the Messenger of Allah say: Then invite them to Islam and inform them of what is incumbent on them: for, by Allah if a single man is guided aright through thee, it is better for thee than red camels. (B 56:102)

Abd Allah ibn Abu Aufa reported, The messenger of Allah said: “And now that paradise is beneath the protection of the swords.” (B 56:22)

Abu Harairah said, The Messenger of Allah, said: “Whom do you count to be a matyr among you?” they said, O Messenger of Allah! Whoever is killed in the way of Allah is a martyr. He said:
"In that case the martrys of my community shall be very few–he who is killed in the way of Allah is a martyr: he who dies a natural death in the way of Allah is a martr: he who dies of the plague in the way of Allah is a martyr: he who dies of cholera in the way of Allah is a maryr. (M MSh 18)
*
Abd Allah reported, A woman was found among the killed in one of the battles of the Prophet, so the Messenger of Allah, forbade the killing of women and children. (B 56:147)

Ibn Umar reported, The Messenger of Allah said: “I have been commanded that i should fight these people till they bear witness that there is no god but Allah and keep up prayer and pay zakat. When they do this, their blood and their property shall be safe with me except as Islam requires, and their reckoning is with Allah.” (B 2:16)

Maula Muhammad Ali writes:*** Jihad means the exerting of one’s power in repelling the enemy or in contending with an object of dissapprobation.*** Another implicaiton of the word Jihad is to invite outsiders into the religion.

Whether or not Muhammud had intend for Jihad to be interpreted as what actions to take against non muslims or who ever directly opposes Islam is unclear. What is clear is that there needs to be more disscussion between Muslims on what this term means for their religion.
 
Violence is only allowed in very rare cases. In general, the “People of the Book” (Christians and Jews) are required to be protected by Muslims, until they willingly convert of their own accord.
 
To clarify even further through an example, when I was in Istanbul, my roommate showed me a church that was actually physically connected to a mosque next door as a single building. The two congregations often hosted charity events and dinners together and had very friendly relations. No attempt at coersion, no attempt at conversion, no violence.
 
Rolltide said:
Violence is only allowed in very rare cases. In general, the “People of the Book” (Christians and Jews) are required to be protected by Muslims, until they willingly convert of their own accord.
Click to expand...
So, may we assume that two of those “rare cases” would have been the shooting of JPll in 1981 and the plans to kill him in the Phillipines in 1995, both undertaken by Muslims?

Islam is as Islam does.

Anna
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top