Did Noah's Ark Exist?

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“Yes, of course it did.
Jesus Christ spoke of it.”
Matthew 24:37-39 'As it was in Noah’s day, so will it be when the Son of man comes. For in those days before the Flood people were eating, drinking, taking wives, taking husbands, right up to the day Noah went into the ark, and they suspected nothing till the Flood came and swept them all away. This is what it will be like when the Son of man comes.
“Jesus doesn’t talk rubbish.” --Nelka the Wise

Well, we can all just wait until this one comes to pass or not. There’s no sin in being Invincibly Ignorant, but we already have had hundreds of biblical prophecies that have been fulfilled…Below is a Wiki quote on the late Pleistocene/early Holocene extinctions. Please note the wrangling between Uniformitarianism [the people that had to erase Georges Cuvier, Father of Paleontology, because he was a Catastrophist and that contravened their atheist model of Earth as giant greenhouse/Petri dish having laboratory-like constancy to engender conditions fostering evolution] versus Catastrophism.

Evidence supporting the prehistoric overkill hypothesis includes the persistence of certain island megafauna for several millennia past the disappearance of their continental cousins. Ground sloths survived on the Antilles long after North and South American ground sloths were extinct. The later disappearance of the island species correlates with the later colonization of these islands by humans. Similarly, woolly mammoths died out on remote Wrangel Island 7000 years after their mainland extinction. Steller’s sea cows also persisted off the isolated and uninhabited Commander Islands for thousands of years after they vanished from continental shores of the north Pacific.[1]
Controversial alternative hypotheses to the theory of human responsibility include the Younger Dryas event and Tollmann’s hypothetical bolide, which claim that the extinctions resulted from bolide impact(s). Simplified versions of such hypotheses would predict an instantaneous, regional extinction(s), and thus cannot account for the planet-wide species losses that occurred over an interval of thousands of years. However in the case of such impact(s) on the North American ice sheet, for example, there is growing evidence to suggest that the initial post-impact cooling from blocked sunlight may have been compounded by adverse effects on the Thermohaline_circulation by a substantial impulse of fresh water to the ocean(s) through a massive combination of runoff and precipitation from that impact.citation needed]

*Such a scenario has been proposed as a contributing cause of the 1,300 year cold period known as the Younger Dryas stadial. This impact extinction hypothesis is still in debate due to the exacting field techniques required to extract minuscule particles of extra terrestrial impact markers such as Iridium at a high resolution from very thin strata in a repeatable fashion, as is necessary to conclusively distinguish the event peak from the local background level of the marker. **In this case the debate seems to be exacerbated by infighting between the Uniformitarianism camp and the Catastrophism camp, a feud as old as the hills (and the comets) themselves.

And now for something completely different: ED CONRAD’s “MAN IS AS OLD AS COAL” http://www.edconrad.com/

Here’s Ed Conrad’s reprint of a 1911 article on the find of human remains in coal strata by miners who noted the same fossil ferns Ed Conrad was initially looking for:

Here’s an article that appears verbatim from the Shenandoah
(Pa.) Evening Herald daily newspaper in August 1911:

A remarkable specimen of the “carboniferous era” has just
been unearthed at a depth of fifteeen hundred feet in the underground
workings of the Ellengowan colliery of the Philadelphia and Reading
Coal and Iron Company.

The specimen is very beautiful and is highly prized by Inside
Foreman Gwillym Jones who retained it as a curio.

Miners at the face of one of the breasts discovered a large
piece of slate with impressions of leaves and ferns deeply imbedded
therein.

The surface covered by these markings was five feet in length
and of nearly the same width.

After considerable labor, in which care was taken that the
piece might be take out in its entirely, the workmen succeeded in
their task.

Several small pieces only were broken from the formation which
was presented to those who took the slate from its natural bed.

Quite a number of curios have already been taken from these
workings. Several years ago a bunch of grapes, almost perfectly
formed, was taken from this colliery. A trunk of a tree and a portion
of a petrified snake were also found.

One of the most interesting finds was that in which was
perfectly formed the outlines of a human leg and, judging from the
size, the owner of the member must have been a giant in stature.

A number of these finds are on exhibition at the offices of
Division Superintendent McDonald and Inside Foreman Jones.
They are objects of much curiosity.

Man be old. Man be devolved. Man be making bronze before iron. Man be survivor. Man be big. Man be smart. Man have smaller brain case today. Man be from one man dubbed “Scientific Adam.” Woman be from one woman, nicknamed “Eve” in mtDNA study. Man be telling flood story everywhere. Man be devolved atheist. Man kill millions for pleasure of devolved atheist un-god, man himself. No likey man’s man-god.


 
So that’s a no then?

You’re not qualified in the field, and you have no peer reviewed scientific papers from oceanographers, geologists and so on that back up your claims?

Sarah x 🙂
How many more do I need to post about being enough water?

Can we agree there is enough water yet?
 
But why would the Church have no “official position” about whether the story of Noah’s Ark is true or not…if Jesus specifically* spoke* about it, as per quotes written down later in the Christian canon?
If he said it, and it’s quoted on those pages, wouldn’t it have to be considered a true event?
If not, his words above would then be considered a fabrication?
Thank you. That is precisely why Catholics should believe the literalness of it. Jesus spoke of other true events that occurred in the Old Testament.

Peace,
Ed
 
How many more do I need to post about being enough water?

Can we agree there is enough water yet?
Once again, no, because as I already mathematically proved, based on your own claims, there is not enough water.
 
Thank you. That is precisely why Catholics should believe the literalness of it. Jesus spoke of other true events that occurred in the Old Testament.

Peace,
Ed
We covered this early in the thread. Jesus talking about an even is no reason to assume that this event literally happened.
 
How many more do I need to post about being enough water?

Can we agree there is enough water yet?
Link to the peer reviewed scientific papers from oceanographers and geologists and so on that prove this?

Sarah x 🙂
 
Link to the peer reviewed scientific papers from oceanographers and geologists and so on that prove this?

Sarah x 🙂
OK - we will keep going. 😦

Inner Earth May Hold More Water Than the Seas

Molten rocks deep in the earths interior may be surprisingly wet, Japanese researchers say. From lab experiments, they have concluded there may be more H2O deep underground than in all oceans, lakes, and rivers combined.

The scientists first heated “mineral cocktails” to a white-hot 1600 degrees Celsius (2900 degrees Fahrenheit) and squeezed them until the pressure reached more than three million pounds per square inch (200,000 kilograms per square centimeter). Then they cooked the samples for an hour.

The experiments replicated the environment and conditions deep in the Earth.
Based on what they witnessed in their lab, the researchers concluded that more water probably exists deep within the Earth than is present on Earth’s surface—as much as five times more.

“Our results suggest that the lower mantle can potentially store considerable amounts of water,” said Motohiko Murakami of the Tokyo Institute of Technology, where the experiments were conducted.

“The presence of water in the crystal structure of [deep-Earth] minerals would be expected to soften the minerals and change their flow behavior,” he added. That, in turn, could affect how the innards of the planet mix and shift over time, and could indirectly affect conditions and forces near the surface, such as plate tectonics.


Other research has suggested that a zone between the mantle and the crust also contain a great deal of water, the Japanese researchers noted. If so, there could be more than ten times the amount of water inside the planet as there is on its surface.

more…
 
What evidence would the global flood leave?
  1. A global flood would have caused, to some extent, erosion in mountains. How then do you explain the relative ages of the mountain? Why weren’t the Sierra Nevadas eroded as much as the Appalachians?
  2. Ice core series, which have been dated back 40,000 years, show no sign of a global flood. A global flood would have left behind a layer of sediments, noticeable changes in salinity and oxygen isotope ratios (rain has a different isotopic composition than seawater), fractures from buoyancy and thermal stresses, and a hiatus in trapped air bubbles. I ask you: why hasn’t this sort of evidence shown up?
  3. A huge amount of water, such as a global flood, would have provided the polar ice caps enough buoyancy to break away from their beds and break them up. As a side note, they wouldn’t regrow quickly.
  4. We could recognize such a flood by looking at the sea floors. A flood happening would be recognized by the following: an unusual amount of terrestrial detritus, different grain size distributions in the sediment, a shift in oxygen isotope ratios, and a massive extinction. And where is this evidence?
  5. Scientists have dated back tree ring records to go back more than 10,000 years. Yet, these records have shown no catastrophe having occurred during that time.
 
Thank you. That is precisely why Catholics should believe the literalness of it. Jesus spoke of other true events that occurred in the Old Testament.
How exactly do you go from “Jesus spoke about this Old Testament event” to “this Old Testament event must have been a historical event”? I don’t see how the conclusion is logical. 🤷

After all, Jesus or the Apostles never referenced Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Obadiah, Zephaniah, Judges, 1 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Lamentations, or Nahum. According to the logic you’ve demonstrated in the above quote, these eleven books must be pure fantasy.
 
  1. A global flood would have caused, to some extent, erosion in mountains. How then do you explain the relative ages of the mountain? Why weren’t the Sierra Nevadas eroded as much as the Appalachians?
  2. Ice core series, which have been dated back 40,000 years, show no sign of a global flood. A global flood would have left behind a layer of sediments, noticeable changes in salinity and oxygen isotope ratios (rain has a different isotopic composition than seawater), fractures from buoyancy and thermal stresses, and a hiatus in trapped air bubbles. I ask you: why hasn’t this sort of evidence shown up?
  3. A huge amount of water, such as a global flood, would have provided the polar ice caps enough buoyancy to break away from their beds and break them up. As a side note, they wouldn’t regrow quickly.
  4. We could recognize such a flood by looking at the sea floors. A flood happening would be recognized by the following: an unusual amount of terrestrial detritus, different grain size distributions in the sediment, a shift in oxygen isotope ratios, and a massive extinction. And where is this evidence?
  5. Scientists have dated back tree ring records to go back more than 10,000 years. Yet, these records have shown no catastrophe having occurred during that time.
Let’s start with #1.

The Himalayas have some of the most violent winds and erosion. Yet we find fossils that have not yet been eroded. Here we have the “first” adjustment -
Fossils Found In Tibet Revise History Of Elevation, Climate

…Major tectonic changes on the Tibetan Plateau may have caused it to attain its towering present-day elevations – rendering it inhospitable to the plants and animals that once thrived there – as recently as 2-3 million years ago, not millions of years earlier than that, as geologists have generally believed. The new evidence calls into question the validity of methods commonly used by scientists to reconstruct the past elevations of the region.

So we went from 50 million to 2. :hmmm: Things are changing…
 
An article by a reporter in National Geogrpahic :confused:

You keep missing the bit where I’m looking for a link to peer reviewed scientific papers by oceanographers, geologists, and so on, that back up the claims you’re making - that there is more than enough water to flood the globe to the height of Everest and higher.

Do you have them?

And since you haven’t answered twice now, I’ll try once more then leave it there - are you qualified in this field?

Trained, skilled and experienced to make a professional assessment of the information from both sides?

Sarah x 🙂
 
OK - we will keep going. 😦

Inner Earth May Hold More Water Than the Seas

Molten rocks deep in the earths interior may be surprisingly wet, Japanese researchers say. From lab experiments, they have concluded there may be more H2O deep underground than in all oceans, lakes, and rivers combined.

The scientists first heated “mineral cocktails” to a white-hot 1600 degrees Celsius (2900 degrees Fahrenheit) and squeezed them until the pressure reached more than three million pounds per square inch (200,000 kilograms per square centimeter). Then they cooked the samples for an hour.

The experiments replicated the environment and conditions deep in the Earth.
Based on what they witnessed in their lab, the researchers concluded that more water probably exists deep within the Earth than is present on Earth’s surface—as much as five times more.

“Our results suggest that the lower mantle can potentially store considerable amounts of water,” said Motohiko Murakami of the Tokyo Institute of Technology, where the experiments were conducted.

“The presence of water in the crystal structure of [deep-Earth] minerals would be expected to soften the minerals and change their flow behavior,” he added. That, in turn, could affect how the innards of the planet mix and shift over time, and could indirectly affect conditions and forces near the surface, such as plate tectonics.


Other research has suggested that a zone between the mantle and the crust also contain a great deal of water, the Japanese researchers noted. If so, there could be more than ten times the amount of water inside the planet as there is on its surface.

more…
If your paper says 5 times as much water as in the oceans, why were in, in an earlier post, trying to convince people that there was 30 times as much?
 
An article by a reporter in National Geogrpahic :confused:

You keep missing the bit where I’m looking for a link to peer reviewed scientific papers by oceanographers, geologists, and so on, that back up the claims you’re making.

Do you have them?

And since you haven’t answered twice now, I’ll try once more then leave it there - are you qualified in this field?

Sarah x 🙂
🙂 All secular sources so far.

Water in Earth’s mantle
Marc Hirschmann and David Kohlstedt

In the March 2012 issue of Physics Today [1], Marc Hirschman and David Kohlstedt explore the history of the deep water cycle as it is linked to Earth’s history, as well as the role of water in Earth’s mantle from the microscopic considerations to the macroscopic consequences. The authors also note that carbon, like water, cycles through Earth’s interior with vast quantities being stored in the mantle and that it has an equally profound impact on Earth’s dynamics.
 
🙂 All secular sources so far.
😃

Oh my gosh.

One more time, then I’m going to move on as this is migraine inducing 😃

Do you have -

a scientific -

peer reviewed paper -

from qualified oceanographers, geologists, and so on -

that proves -

there is enough water in and on and under and over the earth -

to completely cover it in a global flood -

to the height and higher of Everest.

Yes?

or

No?

And are you qualified to understand and assess this information?

Yes?

or

No?

reaches for the Naproxen

Sarah x 🙂
 
Now could you really imagine Jesus saying something like

Matthew 24:37-39 'As it was in Noah’s day (though truly I say to you that in future years the whole flood thing will come under scrutiny by geologists), so will it be when the Son of man comes. For in those days before the Flood people were eating, drinking, taking wives, taking husbands, right up to the day Noah went into the ark, and they suspected nothing till the Flood came and swept them all away. This is what it will be like when the Son of man comes.

May be Jesus WASN"T saying, “the Flood was real, get over it.” Maybe he wasn’t talking about whether we should read the bible literally:p

Maybe Jesus was indicating that He was the new Ark of the new Covenant, the one in whom and through whom all creation and all peoples will be made new.

When I say maybe, being English, I mean that it is more than likely that this is what He was saying.😉
4 maybes and a lot of conjecture. The fact is Jesus did not dispute the flood, nor Genesis. As well his references to the flood and genesis are outside “the parables” of Jesus. Why do we classify the parables as fictional stories? It is because all else outside of them actual happened otherwise you wouldn’t need to seperate and contextualize the parables from the rest of what it written in sacred scripture. Genesis and the flood are not NT parables listed by the church.
 
😃

Oh my gosh.

One more time, then I’m going to move on as this is migraine inducing 😃

Do you have -

a scientific -

peer reviewed paper -

from qualified oceanographers, geologists, and so on -

that proves -

there is enough water in and on and under and over the earth -

to completely cover it in a global flood -

to the height and higher of Everest.

Yes?

or

No?

And are you qualified to understand and assess this information?

Yes?

or

No?

reaches for the Naproxen

Sarah x 🙂
What are your qualifications?
 
😃

Oh my gosh.

One more time, then I’m going to move on as this is migraine inducing 😃

Do you have -

a scientific -

peer reviewed paper -

from qualified oceanographers, geologists, and so on -

that proves -

there is enough water in and on and under and over the earth -

to completely cover it in a global flood -

to the height and higher of Everest.

Yes?

or

No?

And are you qualified to understand and assess this information?

Yes?

or

No?

reaches for the Naproxen

Sarah x 🙂
Seismic Evidence for Water Deep in Earth’s Upper Mantle

A variety of evidence (11–14) has indicated that amounts
of 1500 parts per million (ppm) of water can
be present locally in the uppermost mantle.
This water is carried there by subducting
oceanic plates, which release most of the
subducted water at depths shallower than 150
km into the mantle wedge overlying the plate
(15). Reports of water being able to reside
below this depth are based on high-pressure
experiments (16) and seismic tomography
(17).
  1. O. Sigmarsson, M. Condomines, J. Morris, R. Harmon,
    Nature 346, 163 (1990).
  2. P. Ulmer, Phys. Earth Planet. Inter. 127, 215 (2001).
  3. S. van der Lee, D. James, P. Silver, J. Geophys. Res.
    106, 30821 (2001).
  4. The Andean Continental Research Project Working
    Group, Nature 397, 341 (1999).
  5. A. Thompson, Nature 358, 295 (1992).
  6. D. J. Frost, Y. Fei, J. Geophys. Res. 103, 7463 (1998).
We interpret the broadening of the 410-km
discontinuity deduced here as being caused by
water in the mantle minerals at this depth.
These minerals can contain a substantial
amount of water: as much as 1000 ppm by
weight of water in olivine and about 20,000
ppm by weight of water in wadsleyite (27). The
estimated water content in olivine for a transition
interval of 20 to 25 km is around 500 ppm
by weight (Fig. 3).
  1. D. Kohlstedt, H. Keppler, D. Rubie, Contrib. Mineral.
    Petrol. 123, 345 (1996).
In addition to previous explanations
for this splitting (28), we speculate that
the split 520-km discontinuity could also be
explained by an increased water content in
the mantle transition zone.
28. A. Deuss, J. Woodhouse, Science 294, 354 (2001).
 
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