Did - Or Did Not - Jesus Know?

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Matt ch 24 which is eschatological and references Israel seems to have a double prophetic meaning, one in the inmediate future (AD 70) and a distant fulfillment in a date yet to come, (just like the Inmmanuel prophecy of Isaiah and Matt. with an inmediate and a later fulfillment). Certainly Matt 24:14 reiterates the preaching of the gospel of the Kingdom and this is followed by the events of the great tribulation v.15-23 when severe persecution will demand to run for your life. The son of Man will return before this remnant of Israel exhausts the towns of Israel and this may be the meaning of Matt 10:23.
I agree!

In the context of ancient Judaism’s traditional view of the Temple, it was the architectual symbol of the Old Covenant and a miniature replica of the world/universe fashioned by God. The termination of the Old Covenant “world” clears the way for God’s new spiritual Temple (built with living stones) It also prefigures Christ’s Second Coming in glory (the end of the larger world).
 
i will say this i guess i have proof being profane creation began with adam and eve the begining of the bible i realize this athiests prove or try to that the bible is false no proof exists until we went to mars know the world know for a fact that the bible is false in its teachings yes i said it profane. in the near future the church has alot of explaining about adam and eve and other scripture considering we have proof life is off the planet as well.
 
This verse was read at Masses last Friday and raised again a question that has often bothered me about the return of Christ:

"Amen, I say to you, you will not finish the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes." Matthew 23

(This followed instructions Our Lord was giving to His apostles about going out to proclaim the gospel.)

I have noticed several other incidences where Jesus gives His followers the distinct impression that His return to the earth would be within their lifetimes (“before this generation passes away…”)
With respect to this particular quote, I would venture to say that the Apostles of Christ still have not finished announcing the Gospel to all the towns of Israel. In other words, the Good Lord could be understood as saying, “you will not have finished evangelizing (i.e., converting) all the towns of Israel before I come again.” This is in keeping with the idea that the Jewish people will be converted to Christianity right before the end of the world (see, e.g., St. Paul’s writings).

With respect to the other passages you mentioned, you’d have to give me a particular quote. Remember that the evangelists didn’t always write down the words of Our Divine Lord in the order in which they were said. Sometimes, they grouped things together around themes (e.g., end times and destruction of world). That sometimes gives the impression that Our Lord said he’d be back before or shortly after the sack of Jerusalem when what you really have are several statements made by Christ during different times in His ministry joined together.
 
Something to think about…

Looking to this passage in Scripture, do you feel that Jesus should have given an answer to the questioning…and if so why? He is after all God and any answer we get from Him is surely a privilege. Is it a demonstration of self-serving demands many have placed upon God in the form of prayers? Why do we still feel that we are deserving of such knowlege as the end of all things? Isn’t this a little beyond the comprehension of most individuals and what relevence does it have to the way we conduct ourselves today?

The same self-serving thought process would occur then as now…if they knew when the end of things would come, then they could clean up their acts and knew how long they’d have to behave their best to gain their own personal reward. But if they didn’t know how long they had to “behave,” then they’d have to be on their best behavior perpetually. This might be a clue as to why Jesus tolerated the question being asked of Him, but didn’t provide much of an answer.

And so, why do we still demand answers from God? Where is the humility in that?

Peace,

Gail
 
The Lord also implied that His return would not take place soon through a parable about the end of times:

Matthew 25:3-5
But the five foolish, having taken their lamps, did not take oil with them. But the wise took oil in their vessels with the lamps. And the bridegroom tarrying, they all slumbered and slept.
 
The apostles very often had to be brought to a clearer understanding of the OT scriptures and Jesus used a variety of different approaches with different people. The gospels give a variety of descriptions of our Lord’s responses. However at no time do the scriptures intimate that He was deceiving or lying for that would violate what and who He is,so the answer must lie somewhere else.
* when religious leaders asked Him on what authority He acted, Jesus responded with a question of His own (was John the Baptist’s Baptism of God or not?)
* when the samaritan woman at the well asked Him a question,He continued evangelizing her (John4:11-13) and did not loose His focus
* when the disciples asked when He was returning at His second coming,He answered that only the Father new the day and the time. Was He lying? Perish the thought! (Matt24:36). He knew the events that were to precede His coming, but, why find difficulty in trusting that voluntarily chose to know at that time only that which the Father willed? (Matt24:29-31). Furthermore v.34 talks about the generation that would see these things. v.21 tells us it is during the time of the great tribulation and v.15 tells us that the event that ushers in these calamities is the abomination of desolation, as spoken by Daniel the prophet (Dan 9:27 as seen in Rev13:13-15) that is to occur 42mo (Rev 11:2) or 1260days(Rev12:6) which is 3 1/2 y. prior to His coming. So the generation is that that will be alive at the time of the abomination of desolation. This event was prefigured in the past by the desecration of the temple by Antiochus IV Ephiphanes at ~167BC, and this evil Seleucid king is a shadow of the one to come, Antichrist. So is not the generation of apostolic times.
*Jesus , right after He had restored St Peter in John 21, when asked by the apostle what was to be with St John (v21,22), swiftly told him that that was not of his concern, he was to follow Jesus.
*Luke ch 18:31-34 are even more interesting because, even as seen in other gospel accounts, He explains what is to befall Him and they do not understand. v34 says even that ‘the word remained hidden from them and they failed to comprehend…"(NAB); the KJV is more forceful still:“this saying was hid from them”. So there were times that it was not deemed of God that they should know but this is by His Providence but not by deceit or lies.
*Other times Jesus did not clarify because He knew what was in man and the motives are described.John ch 6,Jesus fed ~ 5K and went over the sea of Tiberias to Capernaum,the people followed Him. v15 says the crowed wanted to make Him King. v26 says they were doing it because He filled their stomachs and not because of His miracles. They wanted the power to do this miracle of multiplication of bread(v28 if He wasnot going to feed them, and when Jesus told them they were to have faith in the One that God had sent, they required a miracle as big as that of Moses providing the manna in the desert for them to believe. The rest is the bread of Life teachings. The crowd was thinking physical food and was stumped at drinking His blood and eating His flesh, both against the Mosaic Law. They left Him because they were not true followers of Jesus, just trying to see what they can get for themselves. Is it any wonder He did not clarify matters? Check verse 68, the response of a true disciple.
*the apostles believed on the coming of a Messiah but, just like the religious leaders, failed to see that Isaiah talks about Him as a Suffering Servant and a Royal King to follow in the lineage of David. They expected a Messiah that would throw off the shackels of Imperial Rome and reigh. Right after He gives St Peter the keys (Matt16:16-19) Jesus has to sharply rebuke him for doing Satans’ bidding by opposing His going to the Cross.Was Peter acting wickeldly? Heaven forbid! He was acting wrongly out of ignorance,as he expected a place in Jesus earthly kingdom. Peter just did not know.
*Matt 25:3-5 (or 1-13).This ch. together with Matt 24 is also eschatological and applicable to the nation Israel, and find their counterparts in Mk 13 and Lk 21. One thing appears evident and that is that with Matt ch 12, when the religious leaders reject the Kingdom (by rejecting Jesus the Messiah-King) our Lord beggins to speak in parables which He only explains to His disciples. From now on the Kingdom will be opened to gentiles too (as was God’s plan all along). As pointed out by Angelos, He implied that His return will not be soon. This parable exhorts watchfulness and readiness, and some believe that the virgins who had no oil (a symbol of the H.Spirit) are nonbelieving jews who will not be able to enter the Messianic Kingdom in contrast to the wise (believing) virgens.
Almost forgat that the reason for addressing this thread was to provide any evidence that may liven discussion on the impeccability of Christ and therefore the impossibility of deception when He intimated that He did not know, the day and hour of His second coming. And I may add ‘in His humanity’ , for in His divine nature He never ceased to be God, and therefore was always omniscient.
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 "Master to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God"   John 6.

      GOD BLESS ONE AND ALL!
 
This verse was read at Masses last Friday and raised again a question that has often bothered me about the return of Christ:

"Amen, I say to you, you will not finish the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes." Matthew 23

(This followed instructions Our Lord was giving to His apostles about going out to proclaim the gospel.)

I have noticed several other incidences where Jesus gives His followers the distinct impression that His return to the earth would be within their lifetimes (“before this generation passes away…”). I have heard a few tortured explanations for this apparent misinformation, such as the word “generation” means “all mankind” (?)or “a thousand years is as a day to God” (so it’s really only been two DAYs since He left, not 2000 years). However, the quotation above makes it VERY CLEAR that Jesus is saying that He will return BEFORE the apostles “finish the towns of Israel” - that is, before they finished spreading the gospel throughout Israel.

Now we know that Christ has a dual nature: true God and true Man. In other instances, He told His followers that “only the Father knows” the answer to some question they posed.

My question then is: Did Jesus KNOW when He would return to earth, or did He not? If not, is this because, in His human nature (which is, of course, limited as ours - except for sin) this fact (and perhaps others as well) was somehow hidden from His consciousness - reserved only for the knowledge of the Father, as He infers?

If that is the case, however, how can we assert that the Persons of the Holy Trinity are truly EQUAL. God is omniscient…He knows ALL THINGS by His very nature. So if the Son does NOT know any particular fact - because of his limited human nature - then wouldn’t that necessarily mean that He is NOT omniscient? - at least not in His human nature? I have a hard time trying to imagine how “one half” of Jesus did not know what the “other half” was thinking, but this seems to be the case!

In addition, since Jesus is THE TRUTH, how could He deliberately mislead the apostles (or so it seems) to believe that His return would happen before they “finish(ed) the towns of Israel”? (And I think that the meaning of that sentence is quite clear, so let’s try to avoid semantics!) If He was merely trying to increase their fervor for the gospel (and self-sacrifice) in this way, that is understandable. However, the deception of the apostles remains a logical problem seems to be a contradiction of the divine nature of Christ.

Anyone able to shed some light via Church teaching?
Jesus did return. He returned to them in the Eucharist.
 
Your points are well made and well taken. I agree. However, my question deals with the apparent contradiction of TRUTH. Jesus took great effort to explain His parables and the earlier scriptures about Him to the apostles (while avoiding doing so for others), yet He allowed this misconception. While you are right - that it probably made them more ardent and zealous - I am still troubled by the apparent contradiction between some of Christ’s assertions and what He, as God, must have known to be true about the future.

Your final statement focuses on the reaction of the apostles, whereas mine focuses on the intent and apparent self-contradiction of the Master, who knows all things, including the future, and is Truth…yet allowed the apostles to misunderstand this important concept.

You stated “Jesus made some statements that implied His coming was very soon, and others that made it seem as though it could be a while.” I would appreciate a LIST OF REFERENCES to illustrate where and when Jesus implied that He would NOT return to the earth soon." (Anyone have this??)
That is why we have the Church to clarify all of this for us. It’s a viable solution.
 
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