Did Our Lady really knew the fate of Her Son at the Annunciation?

[patrick457]

Patrick,

Thank you for taking the time. Very interesting. I had a Jewish friend who told me Isaiah was considered a minor prophet by Jews.

If by ‘minor’ you mean ‘of minor importance’, historically I don’t think so.

The book of Isaiah, along with the Psalms and Deuteronomy, were the three most popular and most commonly used works during the time of Jesus. These three have the most copies in the Dead Sea Scrolls, and are the most quoted / alluded to books in the New Testament.

But then again, since in Jewish thought Moses is the greatest prophet, I guess pretty much every prophet that came after him could be considered ‘minor’ in comparison - since all subsequent prophecy was thought to be merely an expression of what Moses had already seen.

If he’s talking about the division of the OT books, in modern-day Judaism, what we would call the ‘Historical Books’ (Joshua, Judges, Samuel, Kings) are termed the ‘Former Prophets’, while most prophetic books proper (Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, the Twelve Minor Prophets) are the ‘Latter Prophets’. (Daniel and Ruth are not part of the Prophets section - they belong to the ‘Writings’.)

What are your thoughts about Mary having private revelations? I think she did and see nothing wrong with it. We don’t know about them because they were private.

Well, since Scripture doesn’t tell us we can only guess.

 

[Memaw]

Why is my idea of Mary having had private revelations different from your infused knowledge? Aren’t you guessing too?

Didn’t I say “may have”, and “we know nothing about”??? I was responding to JB Brother. God Bless, Memaw

 

[aicirt]

Didn’t I say “may have”, and “we know nothing about”??? I was responding to JB Brother. God Bless, Memaw

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Check #15. You were addressing me.

 

[Memaw]

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Check #15. You were addressing me.

Read post 18, I was responding to JB Brother, God Bless, Memaw

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

Read post 18, I was responding to JB Brother, God Bless, Memaw

Mary although blessed by God was still human.

 

[Memaw]

Mary although blessed by God was still human.

I don’t think anyone ever said she wasn’t still human. But I believe she was a lot more than just blessed!!. She was conceived Immaculate. She is the Mother of God. She is the perfect Woman and remained so. She is our Spiritual Mother, our Intercessor and I believe we need her prayers more now than ever before. God Bless, Memaw

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

I don’t think anyone ever said she wasn’t still human. But I believe she was a lot more than just blessed!!. She was conceived Immaculate. She is the Mother of God. She is the perfect Woman and remained so. She is our Spiritual Mother, our Intercessor and I believe we need her prayers more now than ever before. God Bless, Memaw

All that is true. But we need to remind ourselves that although blessed by God, she still did not know everything. We must remember that Mary asked how the Son of God could be born of a virgin, that Mary marveled when the shepherds told them of their angelic encounter, and when Simeon told her what would happen to her Son. Luke tells us that she still kept all these things and pondered about them in her heart. Mary is blessed because she believed that the Lord’s words would be fufilled. She reminds us that although we may not understand God’s plans, we must trust in Him.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

All that is true. But we need to remind ourselves that although blessed by God, she still did not know everything. We must remember that Mary asked how the Son of God could be born of a virgin, that Mary marveled when the shepherds told them of their angelic encounter, and when Simeon told her what would happen to her Son. Luke tells us that she still kept all these things and pondered about them in her heart. Mary is blessed because she believed that the Lord’s words would be fufilled. She reminds us that although we may not understand God’s plans, we must trust in Him.

Just one correction. Mary asked Archangel Gabriel how SHE would bear a son, since she had intended to REMAIN a perpetual virgin.

This is a crucial thing to grasp. It explains much about the ALREADY EXISTING marriage of Mary and Joseph.

Maybe you meant exactly this, if so, sorry. I just think it is a point worth stating very clearly.

But to add to your list of points; I think the finding of Jesus in the temple (in Luke) is a very clear example. We are explicitly told they did not understand Jesus when He questioned them: Why is it you sought me, did you not know I must be about My Fathers house/business.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Just one correction. Mary asked Archangel Gabriel how SHE would bear a son, since she had intended to REMAIN a perpetual virgin.

What Mary asked the angel was actually: Πῶς ἔσται τοῦτο, ἐπεὶ ἄνδρα οὐ γινώσκω

 

[Memaw]

All that is true. But we need to remind ourselves that although blessed by God, she still did not know everything. We must remember that Mary asked how the Son of God could be born of a virgin, that Mary marveled when the shepherds told them of their angelic encounter, and when Simeon told her what would happen to her Son. Luke tells us that she still kept all these things and pondered about them in her heart. Mary is blessed because she believed that the Lord’s words would be fufilled. She reminds us that although we may not understand God’s plans, we must trust in Him.

We have no idea what Mary actually “knew”. Sometimes questions are asked for OUR benefit. So we could believe!! Just because She “pondered” these in her heart, or “marveled” at hearing things, doesn’t mean she didn’t understand. We don’t really know and evidently God didn’t choose to reveal it all to us. Mary is God’s perfect human being, and she responded in a perfect way to Him, always! That’s enough for me. God Bless, Memaw

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

We have no idea what Mary actually “knew”. Sometimes questions are asked for OUR benefit. So we could believe!! Just because She “pondered” these in her heart, or “marveled” at hearing things, doesn’t mean she didn’t understand. We don’t really know and evidently God didn’t choose to reveal it all to us. Mary is God’s perfect human being, and she responded in a perfect way to Him, always! That’s enough for me. God Bless, Memaw

God wants us to follow him. Understanding will come later. In the Gospels, Mary is not blessed because she immediately understood. In fact I showed examples of how she really didn’t get it at the time! Mary is blessed because she heard the word of God and put it into practice. May we all learn to do the same.

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

What Mary asked the angel was actually: Πῶς ἔσται τοῦτο, ἐπεὶ ἄνδρα οὐ γινώσκω

Which is translated, “How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?”

 

[AmbroseSJ]

What Mary asked the angel was actually: Πῶς ἔσται τοῦτο, ἐπεὶ ἄνδρα οὐ γινώσκω

I don’t think the Virgin Mary addressed the Archangel Gabriel in Greek.

 

[Memaw]

God wants us to follow him. Understanding will come later. In the Gospels, Mary is not blessed because she immediately understood. In fact I showed examples of how she really didn’t get it at the time! Mary is blessed because she heard the word of God and put it into practice. May we all learn to do the same.

I doubt there was ever anything Mary “didn’t get at the time”!! God would not expect her to make such a decision in the “dark”. She had free will and wasn’t blank headed. God Bless, Memaw

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

I doubt there was ever anything Mary “didn’t get at the time”!! God would not expect her to make such a decision in the “dark”. She had free will and wasn’t blank headed. God Bless, Memaw

I just showed you examples of times when Mary didn’t understand.

 

[Memaw]

I just showed you examples of times when Mary didn’t understand.

You think she didn’t understand! But we have NO idea how much she actually did understand.
I believe I explained how I understood it. Like I said sometimes questions are asked for OUR benefit. So we would know for certain she was a virgin etc. God Bless, Memaw

 

[JB_Brother_4446]

You think she didn’t understand! But we have NO idea how much she actually did understand.
I believe I explained how I understood it. Like I said sometimes questions are asked for OUR benefit. So we would know for certain she was a virgin etc. God Bless, Memaw

Ambrose SJ showed you an example when Mary didn’t understand. Although she had snippets of what would happen to Jesus, she wasn’t immediately transformed into an oasis of full knowledge.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

I don’t think the Virgin Mary addressed the Archangel Gabriel in Greek.

I see I should have further qualified my answer. No, of course I do not think that Mary spoke to the archangel in Greek. Given the inspired nature of the text, I do think that this pericope completely communicates what she said, however, in a way that various translations and interpretations being given and ascribed in other languages are not what she said.

As I always said to my students, the only time one should read ever in translation is when there is absolutely no other option.

 

[Don_Ruggero]

Which is translated, “How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?”

That was the point I was making…I don’t find that expression to be a proper rendering into English of the Greek original.

 

[Googler]

It seems to be usually assumed that Our Lady knew at the moment of Annunciation about the sorrows Her Son was to endure. How do we know that? How could She know?

And note that the traditional Seven Sorrows of Mary do not include the Annunciation, but start with Simeon’s prophecy.

I heard the explanations that Our Lady was able to predict the Cross and Resurrection from the Scriptures. But do you really think She could remember the relevant fragments during the one-minute encounter with the angel?

At the moment when the priest Simeon mentioned the sword and the sign of contradiction, which were prophetical of the passion and death of the Lord, the Child bowed its head. Thereby, and by many interior acts of obedience, Jesus ratified the prophecy of the priest and accepted it as the sentence of the eternal Father pronounced by his minister. All this the loving Mother noticed and understood; She presently began to feel the sorrow predicted by Simeon and thus in advance was She wounded by the sword, of which She had thus been warned.
~ The Mystical City of God by Ven. Mary of Agreda
CHAPTER VII.
6th Paragraph
THE PRESENTATION OF THE INFANT JESUS IN THE TEMPLE.

Tell me then, my daughter: if my Lord and Master has made Himself the life and the way for men through his Passion and Death, is it not evident that in order to go that way and live up to this truth, they must follow Christ crucified, afflicted, scourged and affronted? Consider the ignorance of men who wish to come to the Father without following Christ, since they expect to reign with God without suffering or imitating his Passion, yea without even a thought of accepting any part of his suffering and Death, or of thanking him for it. They want it to procure for them the pleasures of this life as well as of eternal life, while Christ their Creator has suffered the most bitter pains and torments in order to enter heaven and to show them by his example how they are to find the way of light.
~ WORDS OF THE QUEEN.