Did Paul claim that Jesus is God? Need help

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Hi all,

I am involved in a Lenten book review of Karen Armstrong’s “The Bible: a Biography”:

The leader is very positive about the book and I am busy pointing out inconsistencies, misleading statements and how the traditional understanding makes more sence.

Anyway, She state that Paul did not claim that Jesus was God and therefor believed him to be a human with a special relationship to God (like David). She references Philippians 2:6-11.

I would like to point to verses in Pauline letters that state that Jesus is God.

Any help is most appreciated.

PS I need to use NAB
 
hmmm, I can’t think of any specific verses by Paul. But it is all moot point anyway since Jesus calls Himself God.
 
Thanks Cap,

The reason it’s not moot is because this is just one of the arguments in her presentation that what Jesus actually said is unknowable and that Bible scholars have determined that what is written about Jesus and what he said and what constitutes the faith was developed (invented) by the gospel writers to create a religion tha made sense of there current circumstances. I think when she says that Paul didn’t claim that Jesus was God that she is really implying that Paul did not believe that Jesus was God.

God Bless,
Jim
 
It’s an abuse of scholarship for Ms.Armstrong to make these sorts of claims to lay people who have no background in NT studies. Striking is her reference to Phil.2, which is commonly cited as a reference, indeed maybe the earliest reference, to any kind of formal Christology in the New Testament.
Paul here is quoting an early hymn of the community. He did not invent this hymn, but quotes it with approval.
Jesus was “in the form of God:” the Greek word for form is “Morphe” like in metamorphosis. It is not ‘image and likeness’ that Adam and Eve are made in. The NIV streches the word to mean “nature,” but the word comes pretty close.
Anyhoos, he emptied himself and took the ‘morphe’ of a human, so he literally metamorphosized! So he goes from being non-human, pre-existent, to being born in a lowly state. That is the context of the 1st half of the hymn. Jesus is not a hero like David who ascends to glorious heights. He existed, presumably in heaven, with God, and then became a man.
The second half sings of Christ’s enthronement, in which “every knee shall bow” at the name of Jesus. As Paul usually does, or rather he and this particular community do, a reference to God in the Hebrew Bible is reapplied to Christ. “Every knee shall bow” is a direct play on Isiah 45:23 where “all knees bow” and “all tongues swear” to YHWH.
This entire hymn in no way suggests that Jesus is just a great guy or hero. In the least, it tells of some sort of divine being who was born as a human and then was killed, only to be vindicated by God.
I think that counts as a reference.
 
There are so many examples:

“Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.” (Romans 9:5)

“Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.” (Philippians 2:6-7)

“For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form” (Collosians 2:6)
 
Thanks Holden,

I will use these.

God Bless

Jim
Yes, you are welcome. If you need anymore feel free to PM me, or if you would like lists of apologetic resources I can help you as well.
 
Romans 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ, according to the flesh, who is over all things, God blessed for ever. (Paul actually calls Him “God” in this verse.)

Titus 2:13 awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, …

Colossians 1:15-17 He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; for in Him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities–all things were created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together

Colossians 2:9 For in Him the whole fulness of deity dwells bodily,

In the first chapter of Hebrews, Paul makes the argument that Jesus is superior to the angels.

In Heb 2:10 Paul says “…he, for whom and by whom all things exist…” (
Such a statement can only be true of God, not a human being.)
 
In Heb 2:10 Paul says “…he, for whom and by whom all things exist…” (
Such a statement can only be true of God, not a human being.)
Was Hebrews written by St. Paul?
 
Anyway, She state that Paul did not claim that Jesus was God and therefor believed him to be a human with a special relationship to God (like David). She references Philippians 2:6-11.
“A human with a special relationship to God,” to me, insinuates the assumption that Jesus was a mere “spiritual guru” not unlike many others in various religions or philosophies, and I think this assumption, itself, is built upon a definition of God which drastically differs from the orthodox Christian view of Him.

Of course, I’m not going to go into, at length, a rebuttal of that idea here, but suffice it to say that, when we assume such things, we will project our assumptions onto all manner of things, and not least of which is Scripture. We will colour our interpretations of Scripture with our own, personal perceptions of what reality is composed of and, disregarding concepts like authoritative teaching of Doctrines and Dogmas, it is no surprise that we would arrive at conclusions which differ drastically from traditional ones. But where do such assumptions originate? Usually, it is in the intuition and in the perception that each individual can, for himself, arrive at ultimate truth without the need to appeal to any other individual; and that no one can say whether or not another person is “right” or “wrong” on these points, but only whether or not they themselves submit to their own conscience and reason.

That is, the interpretation you refer to is based upon the idea that all spiritual truth is relative to individual minds; that truth has a variety of “masks” which it wears, all of which are “valid;” and that, above all, the God of Orthodox Christians cannot possibly exist as Christian theists state he does.

Given such a context, perhaps it is somewhat understandable that a person who holds such views could interpret the following in the way that you have described:

"Have in mind among yourselves, which was in Christ Jesus, who,* though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped**, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men."

*Catholic teaching states that the above should be interpreted using the view point of Christ, the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, “emptying himself” of his full Divinity and glory, to humbly approach a life of a mere servant, one who is “born in the likeness of men,” and accepting upon his shoulders the burden of men, not least of which is death.

The contrary interpretation will attribute to the thought that “…though he was in the form of God…” a meaning that Jesus was “merely a bit like” God in some sort of obscure way, perhaps in the way a guru might be. The Catholic will state that truth dictates that this instead be interpreted to mean that “form” is an outward sign of inner nature, and that thus, Jesus was that visible sign of invisible God: the Word made flesh.

Likewise, the idea that Jesus “…did not count equality with God something to be grasped…” will be interpreted by the mistaken that Jesus could not have equality of nature with God. The Church, of course, states that the “equality” here refers to rights and privileges, and that it speaks of the fact that Jesus did not take upon himself the full glory of his Divinity, but rather cloaked himself in humility and humanity as a suffering servant come to redeem humankind.

The difference in the two interpretations, again, depends on the definitions an individual ascribes to God, and how they interpret the relation of man to God.
 
Was Hebrews written by St. Paul?
Some say yes, some say no.
Our Bibles list it as one of Paul’s epistles. I find it interesting that no other author has ever been put forward by name (at least, not that I know of).
It would be the only epistle “written by ??”. 🙂
 
Concerning Phil 2:6-11:

Jesus was there with the Father and Holy Spirit when man was created. Jesus isn’t just another created being. We were created in His image and likeness. God already knew He would send his son to redeem us.

*Then God said: "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. . . * (Gen 1:26)

Satan, Adam, and Eve’s pride is what lead to the fall. They wanted to be like God’s. Deciding what was right and wrong for themselves.

No, God knows well that the moment you eat of it your eyes will be opened and you will be like gods who know what is good and what is bad." The woman saw that the tree was good for food, pleasing to the eyes, and desirable for gaining wisdom. So she took some of its fruit and ate it; and she also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. (Gen 3:5-6)

The Trinity, on the other hand, is humble. There is no need for pride because God is the truth. Jesus humility was the antidote of Adam’s pride.

Phil 2:6-11 says the exact opposite of what Karen Armstrong is suggesting.

Peace,

Ryan 🙂
 
Is Paul serving two masters? NO! He serves one master.

Titus 1:1 - Paul says he is a servant of God - Rom. 1:1 - Paul says he is a servant of Jesus Christ.

Peace,

Ryan 🙂
 
But you are not in the flesh; on the contrary, you are in the spirit, if only the Spirit of God dwells in you. Whoever does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. (Rom 8:9)

Is this verse saying the Spirit of God = the Spirit of Christ?

If so, Paul is claiming Jesus is God.

Peace,

Ryan 🙂
 
1 Cor. 15:28 - God may be all in all - Colossians 3:11 - Christ is all and in all.

Col. 1:26 - God’s saints - 1 Thess. 3:13 - at the coming of Jesus Christ with all His saints.

Peace,

Ryan 🙂
 
Hi all,

I am involved in a Lenten book review of Karen Armstrong’s “The Bible: a Biography”:

The leader is very positive about the book and I am busy pointing out inconsistencies, misleading statements and how the traditional understanding makes more sence.

Anyway, She state that Paul did not claim that Jesus was God and therefor believed him to be a human with a special relationship to God (like David). She references Philippians 2:6-11.

I would like to point to verses in Pauline letters that state that Jesus is God.

Any help is most appreciated.

PS I need to use NAB
Hi, JamesD!

…you’ve gotten excellent replies…

…here’s one which I did not notice in the responses:

Now I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel preached by me is not of human origin. For I did not receive it from a human being, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ. (Galatians 2:11-12–NAB)

Paul attests that Jesus, God, is not a man–as we understand the meaning of the word; Jesus is God, and only through His revelation is Paul able to preach the Gospel with such authority and conviction!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Some say yes, some say no.
Our Bibles list it as one of Paul’s epistles. I find it interesting that no other author has ever been put forward by name (at least, not that I know of).
It would be the only epistle “written by ??”. 🙂
There is debate that Hebrews is even an epistle. It may be something like a mini-Catechism.
 
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