Did Paul forbid woman to teach and to speak during service? why and when

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Pathway2

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I see 1 timothy 2:11 but I also see that a woman can speak since she is prophesying, please explain!
 
Cultural difference and norms in the Early days of the church.
Women only recently received ANY rights anywhere, remember?
That was 2000 years ago
You asked this in a previous thread. Get a Biblical history book, dear one.
 
I believe he meant during the liturgy. The worship service is a model for our high priest in heaven. So our priest on earth shouldn’t depart from being a picture of Christ, who was a man himself. It doesn’t forbid all kinds of other acts of service. God forbid. Where would the church be without all of her female saints? Probably some dreary form of Puritanism or Islam or something…which inevitably also leads to mean spirited treatment of women in daily life too.
 
straykat said:
I believe he meant during the liturgy.
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That is speculative.
pianistclare said:
Cultural difference and norms in the Early days of the church.
Women only recently received ANY rights anywhere, remember?
That was 2000 years ago
You asked this in a previous thread. Get a Biblical history book, dear one.
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Using the same reasoning, there is no reason why a woman can not be a Priest.
 
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
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If we take this to it’s literal meaning, then woman cannot teach CCD. Nun can not teach religious classes in Parochial schools.

It is perplexing.

But then again some of the Early Church did have a problem with the writings of Paul being declared canonical. Imagine how the Church would have looked it Paul’s writ not found itself in the Bible?
 
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  1. 1 Peter 3:7 Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.
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Not at all. Ministry can be had by women in other ways besides being a priest. Christ set up the priesthood, not Paul. Christ called men. Totally different. and a faulty comparison.
 
JoshuaIsLord said:
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pianistclare:
Christ called men.
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BECAUSE
pianistclare said:
Cultural difference and norms in the Early days of the church
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Come on.

Jesus Christ did not care about cultural differences and norms. That’s why He was killed.

There were PLENTY of pagan priestesses in & around the Roman world.

The idea of female priests would not have been foreign to gentiles.

Christ flipped Judaism on its head, just like he flipped the tables in the Temple. If He wanted female priests, He could have easily done so. It would have been far less “radical” to the Jews & Romans vs other things He was teaching.

To say Jesus didn’t have female priests due to cultural reasons is ridiculous.

God Bless
 
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phil19034 said:
Come on.

Jesus Christ did not care about cultural differences and norms. That’s why He was killed.

There were PLENTY of pagan priestesses in & around the Roman world.

The idea of female priests would not have been foreign to gentiles.

To say Jesus didn’t have female priests due to cultural reasons is ridiculous.
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Plus, there was PLENTY of evidence that Jesus defied cultural norms regarding women, valued them and made them an important part of his ministry. He just didn’t make them apostles.

He did everything deliberately and with purpose. His lack of women apostles was not an oversight. It was a choice.

Jesus wanted women to be involved in his church. The first people he appeared to when he came back were women. But that doesn’t mean he intended women to be priests.
 
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Rom 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junia, my relatives and my fellow captives, who are notable among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
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Paul’s final greetings to the Roman church seem typical. We might just skim over the list of names without a second thought. But one name within that list has become the focus of controversy and heated debate:

“Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners. They are well known among the apostles, and they were in Christ before me” (Rom 16:7).

“Junia” is most likely the name of a woman. When you read the phrase “among the apostles,” you understand how a simple salutation has become a prooftext in the debate over the role of women in ministry.

The evidence that Junia is a woman is compelling. Its Greek spelling (Iounian) could point to either a man or a woman. However, the addition of an accent mark would specify gender—depending on what mark was chosen (Greek has several) and on which syllable the accent mark was placed.

The earliest manuscripts of the New Testament were written in an uppercase Greek script (uncial) that did not include accents. But copies of the Greek New Testament from later periods in a cursive script (minuscule) accent the name as female.

In ancient Greek literature, outside the New Testament, the masculine form of the name has only surfaced once. Ancient Latin texts have also been searched, with some theorizing that Junia might be a shortened form of the male “Junianus.” Of the 250 or more citations of the name Junia, where a shortening of the name is possible, all have referred to women.

The phrase “among the apostles” can also be translated as “to the apostles,” placing Junia within or outside this ministry category. Either translation is possible within the scope of Greek grammar. External examples, though, statistically favor the first option.

However, there are other issues that are rarely raised in this debate. New Testament apostles, for instance, are not all described on equal terms. The original 12 disciples, along with Paul, were a special group. They were firsthand pupils of Christ, some of whom God endowed with supernatural spiritual gifts (Acts 5:12) and divine revelation in the form of the New Testament.
 
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Not all apostles had such gifts, however. Aside from the 12 disciples and Paul, it is not clear that the term “apostle” spoke of high authority or even expectations of the role. The Greek word apostolos simply means “messenger” or “sent one”—someone sent out for a specific task, akin to our concept of a missionary. Although the apostle Barnabas did preach and teach (Acts 15:35), Epaphroditus is not described in such terms. “Apostles” were also sent out to represent churches, but we are not told in what capacity (2 Cor 8:23). Paul did not appoint apostles for local church leadership. As a result, the precise relationship of “apostle” to modern church leadership ministry is evasive.

Although there are all these uncertainties, the issue of Junia as a female apostle teaches us that paying attention to the details in the Bible matters. Things can get complicated, but they’re certainly interesting. And we also learn from this example that women played a strategic role in the early church.
 
Pathway2 said:
I see 1 timothy 2:11 but I also see that a woman can speak since she is prophesying, please explain!
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Remember, before his conversion, Paul was a very devout Jew. I believe I am correct that in Sabbath worship in those times (and still today I think in orthodox communities) men and women were divided in the synagogue and there were strict rules concerning the proper conduct of women. Is it possible that this Jewish culture influenced Paul’s writing and stances?
And please, if I am incorrect about the role of women in those times in the synagogue, please, and Jewish scholar or someone with a firm understanding, correct or modify my words.
 
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JoshuaIsLord said:
However, there are other issues that are rarely raised in this debate. New Testament apostles, for instance, are not all described on equal terms. The original 12 disciples, along with Paul, were a special group. They were firsthand pupils of Christ, some of whom God endowed with supernatural spiritual gifts (Acts 5:12) and divine revelation in the form of the New Testament.
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The power of the priesthood was given to these apostles, which is why we have a male priesthood.

If anything, Junia is simply continued evidence that women can still play an important role in the church WITHOUT being a priest.
 
Indeed. Behind ever successful pastor, there is an army of women doing all the heavy lifting.
I’m out.
 
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