Did Paul see the Lord and what did he believe?

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NoelFitz

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I am trying to come to grips with the theology of St Paul and am grateful for the help I have received in CAF.

In an article by Fr Kenneth Baker SJ I read that The key to the theology of St. Paul is* his personal encounter with the glorified Christ.* This seems to be the fundamental believe and agrees with modern thinking, e.g. John Barclay *Paul and the Gift.
*

Fr Baker goes on to claim:
**The Gospel according to St. Paul is that the Son of God became man in Jesus Christ, in order to reconcile all mankind to God the Father, by his life, passion, death and resurrection. **
This poses a query for me. What did St Paul mean by Jesus being the Son of God? Was Paul a strict Jewish monotheist, or did he believe Jesus was God? We are all children of God, and can call God Abba.

I also see:
That Son is Jesus Christ, who communicates his grace, and justifies all who believe in him, and are baptized.
Which of the following should we say the Grace of Jesus Christ, of the Father, of the Spirit (spirit), of God, of the Son, of the Holy Spirit. I would like an explanation other that it makes no difference because all these refer to God, but in the Trinity the persons are distinct.

Finally did Paul see or hear the Lord on the road to Damascus?

I have looked at Acts 7:57-8, 9:3-9, 9:13-19, 22:6-21, 26: 12-18. In none of these is it claimed Paul saw the risen Lord, but he did see a light and heard Jesus.

I have also looked at Paul’s Letters: 1 Cor 9:1, I Cor 15:3, Gal 1:11-16,

I see NAB 1 Corinthians 9:1 *Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? * (1 Cor. 9:1 NAB) and * Last of all, as to one born abnormally, he appeared to me. *(1 Cor. 15:8 NAB).

So one of my concerns can be resolve. Paul; saw the Lord.

I think I am making a bit of progress, so please help more.

Thanks.
 
NoelFitz said:
I am trying to come to grips with the theology of St Paul and am grateful for the help I have received in CAF.

In an article by Fr Kenneth Baker SJ I read that The key to the theology of St. Paul is* his personal encounter with the glorified Christ.* This seems to be the fundamental believe and agrees with modern thinking, e.g. John Barclay *Paul and the Gift.
*

Fr Baker goes on to claim:
**The Gospel according to St. Paul is that the Son of God became man in Jesus Christ, in order to reconcile all mankind to God the Father, by his life, passion, death and resurrection. **
This poses a query for me. What did St Paul mean by Jesus being the Son of God? Was Paul a strict Jewish monotheist, or did he believe Jesus was God? We are all children of God, and can call God Abba.

I also see:
That Son is Jesus Christ, who communicates his grace, and justifies all who believe in him, and are baptized.
Which of the following should we say the Grace of Jesus Christ, of the Father, of the Spirit (spirit), of God, of the Son, of the Holy Spirit. I would like an explanation other that it makes no difference because all these refer to God, but in the Trinity the persons are distinct.

Finally did Paul see or hear the Lord on the road to Damascus?

I have looked at Acts 7:57-8, 9:3-9, 9:13-19, 22:6-21, 26: 12-18. In none of these is it claimed Paul saw the risen Lord, but he did see a light and heard Jesus.

I have also looked at Paul’s Letters: 1 Cor 9:1, I Cor 15:3, Gal 1:11-16,

I see NAB 1 Corinthians 9:1 *Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? * (1 Cor. 9:1 NAB) and * Last of all, as to one born abnormally, he appeared to me. *(1 Cor. 15:8 NAB).

So one of my concerns can be resolve. Paul; saw the Lord.

I think I am making a bit of progress, so please help more.

Thanks.
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Hi, Noel!

…first, we must stop being “text” centric… we cannot demand to know from a specific passage of the Written Scriptures what is being conveyed as the fullness of Faith.

…so if St. Paul speaks of hearing the Lord’s voice and of being hit by a blinding light (to which he was blinded), it does not precludes that St. Paul was given the Grace to see Christ either at that very moment or some other future time…

St. Paul had a spiritual conversion; there was no intellectual confusion about Who his Lord was–much like Elizabeth’s greeting the Virgin (‘how is it that the mother of my Lord…’). This conversion does not allow for religiosity or intellectualism. St. Paul embraced Christ instantly! …but not only that, he came to the Knowledge that Christ was the Church and that the Church was Christ (‘Be One… that they all be one in Me as I am One in You, Father’); this experience is not dependent upon Judaic understandings and fellowship… rather it is seated in Jesus’ Revelation: ‘God is Spirit and true Worshippers must Worship in Spirit and Truth.’

So St. Paul’s conversion is instantaneous… he is Ministered to by Jesus Himself so while he was not part of the three plus years Ministry, he was given the Knowledge and imparted the Gifts that the other Apostles Received; he ensues his Delegation with ardor and while he sees himself as the lesser of the Apostles (he had not been Jesus’ disciple but instead he persecuted the Church) his Teacher (Rabbi) brought him into the Faith and Called him into Service (‘woe to me, if I do not preach the Gospel’).

…as far as the Grace given by God… it makes no difference… and it makes a difference…

We receive God’s Grace… we cannot give Glory to the Father but through the Son… and we can not receive the Grace of God less the Father Wills it by His Son, through the Holy Spirit…

It is confusing only if we attempt to force God into our human understanding of things: linear interpretation and hierarchical existence of the Holy Trinity.

The best passages in Scriptures that embodies this affinity (everything God: Father, Son, Holy Spirit), that I can find, are as follows:
3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
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(1 Corinthians 12:3–read the whole chapter)

17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18 because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and receives human approval. (Romans 14:17-18)
These two passages sum up the whole issue of the Holy Trinity–God is Spirit, He is One and Functions as One, in three Divine Persons.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Are we really to think that Paul could’ve believed anything differently from the Church??? And, if it were possible for Paul to deny Jesus’s divinity, could there ever even be a 100% accurate means of determining that fact?
 
The scriptures say that St. Paul encountered Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus as you said, he saw a light and heard a voice.

The prophet Jeremiah spoke of this in the OT about the House of Jacob in Judah.

Jeremiah 5:21 Hear this, you foolish and senseless people, who have eyes but do not see, who have ears but do not hear:

Jesus mentions it again:

Matthew 13:13 This is why I speak to them in parables: ‘Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.’

So why didn’t they see or hear? Because they were seeing with their earthly eyes and hearing with their earthly ears. St. Paul saw and heard from the eyes and ears of faith and mentions it as written in scripture:

2 Corinthians 5:7*For we walk by faith, not by sight.

This is how we see and hear Jesus today for He is with us as Jesus said He would be always with us.

Jesus is the Son of God… The Begotten Son, meaning of from the same ‘stuff=spirit’ of God, He always was, is and will be Begotten Son of the Father. So is the Son of God…

Jesus on earth was made the Son of Man also… The human Son of Mary… So…

Jesus is the Son of God and the Son of Man… We on the other hand we have a spiritual body and a human body but become all adopted spiritual Sons and Daughters of God through our Baptism… So we are born of God, though we are not begotten of God with God like Jesus is, was and always will be. First we are born through our mothers womb and ‘born again’ through our baptism. So then through our Baptism we become adopted Sons and Daughters of God… Being Born again in baptism then brings us into the family of God because of a familial relationship where Jesus becomes our spiritual brother and Mary is our Spiritual Mother (because Jesus is our brother and Mary is His mother) and God the Father is our Spiritual Father who art in heaven.

I hope that helps… God bless…
 
People to whom he was writing rather knew what happened to him well.

He did not have to “write” down detail accounts. They were written to those who knew him and his story well.

Yes Paul saw the Risen Lord:

“Last of all… he appeared also to me” (1 Cor 15: 8)

“Have I not seen Jesus Our Lord?” (1 Cor 9: 1)
 
He did not have to “write” down detail accounts. They were written to those who knew him and his story well.

Yes Paul saw the Risen Lord:

“Last of all… he appeared also to me” (1 Cor 15: 8)

“Have I not seen Jesus Our Lord?” (1 Cor 9: 1)
 
i really appreciate the thoughtful, Catholic and respectful answers here.
Several issues were raised by me.
The simplest to answer accurately is “Did Paul see the Lord”. Luke in Acts does not give a clear answer, but Paul in 1 Cor does. There was more than a voice; Paul saw the risen Lord.
But the replies are so varied and substantial I would like to treat them al individually with charity and accuracy.
 
jcrichton

The Bible is the inspired word of God, and we should try to understand it, as we are not a Sola Scriptura people.

but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts. Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope, (1 Pet. 3:15 NAB).

You seem not to give a clear answer to one of my queries ‘Did Paul see the Lord’. I am not talking about spiritual seeing, or metaphorical seeing. The agreed answer is YES, Paul saw the Lord…
 
Fhansen

It took time for Church teaching to be understood and partially clarified. It took hundreds of years for the Church to decide on its beliefs. Nicea did not solve all problems about who Christ is. By the time of Chalcedon (451) problems were understood but answers were not given, we cannot understand fully who God is.

I would be amazed if Paul knew about consubstantiation, etc. The Bible cannot teach contrary to Catholicism, but it does not contain all explicitly.

Bl John Henry Newman was a strong believer in the development of Christian doctrine.
 
Karen 107
You wrote “The scriptures say that St. Paul encountered Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus as you said, he saw a light and heard a voice”.

I disagree with you. Your reply agrees with Acts, but Paul in 1 Cor goes further , as he confirms that he saw the Lord.
 
NoelFitz said:
Fhansen

It took time for Church teaching to be understood and partially clarified. It took hundreds of years for the Church to decide on its beliefs. Nicea did not solve all problems about who Christ is. By the time of Chalcedon (451) problems were understood but answers were not given, we cannot understand fully who God is.

I would be amazed if Paul knew about consubstantiation, etc. The Bible cannot teach contrary to Catholicism, but it does not contain all explicitly.

Bl John Henry Newman was a strong believer in the development of Christian doctrine.
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I believe in the development of Christian doctrine as well, at least in terms of its continuous clarification and better understanding. I do not however, believe that this could mean that Paul could believe something opposite from the Church’s position regarding the deity of Jesus, even if that position wasn’t universally held early on.
 
fhansen
thanks again.
I probably agree with you, but I would like to hear of quotes from Paul confirming his belief in the divinity of J C. I cannot find any that are very explicit.

I note
Perhaps one of the clearest indications that Paul thought Jesus was Yahweh comes from the fact that he used Monotheistic Old Testament passages which uniquely referred to Yahweh and applied them to the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 10:13 cf. Joel 2:32; 1 Cor. 1:31 cf. Jer. 9:24; 1 Cor. 2:16 cf. Isa. 40:13; 1 Cor. 10:26 cf. Ps. 24:1; 2 Cor. 10:17 cf. Jer. 9:24 for just a few examples). 1 Corinthians 2:16, for example, alludes to Isaiah 40:13 which is in the context of some of the most explicit monotheistic statements in the entire Old Testament (cf. Isaiah 40:13-28; 43:10; 44:6, 8; 45:5).
carm.org/paul-think-jesus-was-god
 
NoelFitz said:
jcrichton

The Bible is the inspired word of God, and we should try to understand it, as we are not a Sola Scriptura people.

but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts. Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope, (1 Pet. 3:15 NAB).

You seem not to give a clear answer to one of my queries ‘Did Paul see the Lord’. I am not talking about spiritual seeing, or metaphorical seeing. The agreed answer is YES, Paul saw the Lord…
Click to expand...
Hi, Noel!

…sorry that I was not clear enough… I was attempting to let you know that we cannot seek to know everything about God from a single or a few passages of Scriptures… that even though the encounter on the road to Damascus may not have detailed that Saul actually saw Christ, there would be other passages or passage where this would demonstrated; I did not search for the passage, which was offered to you on another post, where St. Paul actually references that Christ not only allowed Himself to been seen by the Eleven (Twelve) but also by him.

I did not mean to suggest that you subscribe to sola Scriptura; I apologize if you feel that that was my intent.

Maran atha!

Angel
 
jcrichton #14

Thanks for the reply.
In fact I initially quoted from 1 Cor.

*I have also looked at Paul’s Letters: 1 Cor 9:1, I Cor 15:3, Gal 1:11-16,

I see NAB 1 Corinthians 9:1 Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? (1 Cor. 9:1 NAB) and Last of all, as to one born abnormally, he appeared to me. (1 Cor. 15:8 NAB).

So one of my concerns can be resolved. Paul; saw the Lord.*
 
NoelFitz said:
fhansen
thanks again.
I probably agree with you, but I would like to hear of quotes from Paul confirming his belief in the divinity of J C. I cannot find any that are very explicit.

I note
Perhaps one of the clearest indications that Paul thought Jesus was Yahweh comes from the fact that he used Monotheistic Old Testament passages which uniquely referred to Yahweh and applied them to the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 10:13 cf. Joel 2:32; 1 Cor. 1:31 cf. Jer. 9:24; 1 Cor. 2:16 cf. Isa. 40:13; 1 Cor. 10:26 cf. Ps. 24:1; 2 Cor. 10:17 cf. Jer. 9:24 for just a few examples). 1 Corinthians 2:16, for example, alludes to Isaiah 40:13 which is in the context of some of the most explicit monotheistic statements in the entire Old Testament (cf. Isaiah 40:13-28; 43:10; 44:6, 8; 45:5).
carm.org/paul-think-jesus-was-god
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Hi, Noel!

…I think that you are trying too hard not to see what Scriptures are offering:
6 Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man.
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(Philippians 2:6-7)
How can Christ be in the form of God if He is not God? If Christ is a mere man, what is He emptying Himself of?
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
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(Philippians 2:5-8)
How can Christ’s nature be that of God, unless He is God? How can He take the nature of God’s servant (man) if He is already a man? How is man equal to God?
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
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(Philippians 2:9-11)
Was St. Paul ignorant of what he was conveying? …name above all names? …that at Jesus’ name every knee, in Heaven and on earth, bow? …every tongue (person/clan/country) confess/acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord? …is St. Paul suggesting that there are several Gods or does he understand that Jesus, the Eternal Word, is God–the One True God that Existed from the Beginning as God?
10 For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 11 It is written:
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“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord,
‘every knee will bow before me;
every tongue will acknowledge God.’”
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12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God
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. (Romans 14:10-12)
…well, for your exegesis to be correct, the Paul of Romans must be having quite a double-mind since he Taught the Romans exactly what he Taught the Philippians… but he actually held two different loyalties, would you not agree?
17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
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(1 Timothy 1:17)
…here he is again, having problems… so who is this King who is the only God? Apocalypse has it as Christ (the King of kings, and Lord of lords)… is St. Paul batting for both teams again?

Either St. Paul is preaching that there are two/several Lords and Kings, and Gods or St. Paul is preaching that God is Only One True God: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (yeah, I did not include passages on the Holy Spirit, sorry).

Maran atha!

Angel
 
Jcrichton

Your most recent reply is brilliant, being encouraging, sound and uplifting. Sincerest thanks.

I am here to be informed, but also to be encouraged in the faith. Your reply certainly met both those criteria. Often I seem to disagree with replies, but in this reply to me as well as being solidly faithful and knowledgeable you build me up.

So thanks and congratulations to you, to all who contribute here and to CAF.
 
NoelFitz said:
Jcrichton

Your most recent reply is brilliant, being encouraging, sound and uplifting. Sincerest thanks.

I am here to be informed, but also to be encouraged in the faith. Your reply certainly met both those criteria. Often I seem to disagree with replies, but in this reply to me as well as being solidly faithful and knowledgeable you build me up.

So thanks and congratulations to you, to all who contribute here and to CAF.
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Hi, Noel!

Thank you for your generous and kind words!

I am glad to have been of help to you. In my estimation, searching through Scriptures is the best job in the world… helping others in the Faith is but an obligation that we are both Called as well as Blessed to do.

I wish that every engagement would be as prosperous as this one… we’ve challenged each other to deepen our Faith and understanding.

Right now I’m past elated–I feel like Andrew when he met Christ… there was so much joy in him when he went to his brother to bring him the Good New!

Thank you for allowing me to assist you in your quest. Please feel free to post any and all concerns about our trek in the Faith! I welcome the opportunity to continue on your side!

Maran atha!

Angel
 
NoelFitz said:
Karen 107
You wrote “The scriptures say that St. Paul encountered Jesus Christ on the road to Damascus as you said, he saw a light and heard a voice”.

I disagree with you. Your reply agrees with Acts, but Paul in 1 Cor goes further , as he confirms that he saw the Lord.
Click to expand...
Hi Noel, That’s not all that I said. Why wouldn’t Paul be able to ‘see’ the Lord especially in a ‘conversion’ moment where he was blinded by the light…Just because we’re in spirit doesn’t mean what we see isn’t real. Jesus said He would always be with us… That’s why Jesus was called Emmanuel meaning God is with us… Do I believe St. Paul was blessed with special graces and could see Our Lord manifest Himself to Paul in a special way…Personally I do because St. Paul was picked by God because he had special gifts useful in building up the Church… But Jesus also manifests Himself to us in a special way at Mass in the Holy Eucharist so that we would to be lifted up in faith and able to do the work God wants us to do.
God bless…
 
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