Did Peter have a Wife & Children?

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Someone said that if you choose to be a priest, you choose to be celibate. That is definitely a rule of men, not God. Let’s look at the full picture, Cardinals (which is not Biblical) are chosen from priests. Bishops (the title is Scriptural) is chosen from Cardinals (which is not Biblical). Archbishops (not Scriptural) are chosen from Bishops, and the Pope (not Scriptural) is chosen from an Archbishop.
Christ is the Head of the Church, not a Pope. Then he has Elders and Deacons. Their qualifications are below.
Now the overseer MUST BE above reproach, the HUSBAND of but ONE WIFE, Temperate, Self-Controlled, Respectable, Hospitable, Able to Teach, not given to Drunkeness, not Violent but Gentle, not Quarrelsome, not a Lover of Money. - 1 Timothy 3: 2-3
He MUST manage his OWN FAMILY well and see that HIS CHILDREN obey him with proper respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) He MUST NOT be a RECENT CONVERT, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. - 1 Timothy: 4-6
He MUST also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap. - 1 Timothy 3:7
For this reason I left you in Crete, that you would set in order what remains and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, namely, if any man is above reproach, the HUSBAND of ONE WIFE, HAVING CHILDREN who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion. For the overseer must be above reproach as God’s steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain, but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled, HOLDING FAST the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict. – Titus 1:5-9
Therefore, I EXHORT THE ELDERS among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight NOT UNDER COMPULSION, BUT VOLUNTARILY, ACCORDING to the WILL OF GOD; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; NOR yet as LORDING it OVER THOSE ALLOTTED TO YOUR CHARGE, but proving to BE EXAMPLES to the flock. And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading crown of glory. – 1 Peter 5:1-4
Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. EVEN SO must THEIR WIVES be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. Let the deacons be the HUSBANDS of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. – 1 Timothy 3:8-13
Now at this time while the disciples were increasing in number, a complaint arose on the part of the Hellenistic Jews against the native Hebrews, because their widows were being overlooked in the daily serving of food. So the twelve summoned the congregation of the disciples and said, "It is not desirable for us to neglect the word of God in order to serve tables. “Therefore, brethren, select from among you seven MEN OF GOOD REPUTATION, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may put in charge of this task. “But we will devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word.” The statement found approval with the whole congregation; and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor, Timon, Parmenas and Nicolas, a proselyte from Antioch. And these they brought before the apostles; and after praying, they laid their hands on them. – Acts 6:1-6

The Scriptures clearly say that an elder, which Peter definitely was according to his own words in 1 Peter 5:1. The Scriptures also clearly say that an elder MUST BE married, which Peter definitely was. The Bible cannot contradict itself. We know this. So if the overseers are to be examples to the flock, how is it that we don’t understand how God has the leadership of his local congregations. Each local congregation is autonomous, meaning self-governed. That is the way God set up Christ’s Church. You may wonder why. It is because if a congregation apostasies (falls away from the faith), that local congregation will fall away, not Christ’s church. Let’s look at the set up of the Catholic church. If the Pope begins to apostasie, the whole Catholic church falls away from the faith. Remember, the pope was ruled infallible. Each Catholic church teaches the same message each week, regardless of what Catholic church you attend, you will hear the same message as the others across town. That is not how Christ designed His Church.
The Spirit CLEARLY says that in later times some will ABANDON THE FAITH and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose CONSCIENCES HAVE BEEN SEARED as with a hot iron. THEY FORBID people to MARRY and ORDER them to ABSTAIN from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and KNOW THE TRUTH. - 1 Timothy 4:1-3
If you point these things out to the brothers, you WILL BE A GOOD MINISTER of Christ Jesus brought up in the TRUTHS OF THE FAITH and of the GOOD TEACHING that you have followed. - 1 Timothy 4:6
Truthful lips endure forever, but a lying tongue lasts only a moment.- Proverbs 12:19
God’s Word is God’s Will, and God’s Will is God’s Word.
 
Similarly, if anyone competes as an athlete, he DOES NOT RECEIVE the victor’s crown unless he COMPETES ACCORDING TO THE RULES. – 2 Timothy 2:5
They WORSHIP ME IN VAIN; their teachings are but RULES TAUGHT BY MEN.’" – Matthew 15:9
Preach the WORD; be PREPARED in season and out of season; CORRECT, REBUKE and ENCOURAGE—WITH GREAT PATIENCE and CAREFUL INSTRUCTION. 3 For the time will come when PEOPLE WILL NOT PUT UP with SOUND DOCTRINE. Instead, TO SUIT THEIR OWN DESIRES, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears WANT TO HEAR. 4 They will TURN their ears AWAY FROM THE TRUTH and turn aside TO MYTHS. – 2 Timothy 4:2-4
Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your TRADITION? – Matthew 15:3
HE replied, “Every plant that my heavenly Father HAS NOT PLANTED will be pulled up by the roots. LEAVE THEM; they are BLIND GUIDES. If a blind man leads a blind man, BOTH WILL FALL INTO A PIT. – Matthew 15:13-14
my people are destroyed from LACK OF KNOWLEDGE. "Because you have REJECTED KNOWLEDGE, I also reject you as my priests; because you have IGNORED THE LAW OF YOUR GOD, I also will ignore your children. – Hosea 4:6
and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The DISCIPLES WERE CALLED CHRISTIANS first at Antioch. – Acts 11:26
Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit…Acts 2:38
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned…Mark 16:16
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen…Matthew 28:18-20
“Can anyone object to their being baptized, now that they have received the Holy Spirit just as we did?” So he gave orders for them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ… Acts 10:47-48
There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all…Ephesians 4:4-6
Reading this passage of God’s word makes it absolutely clear that God only created ONE church. How do we then believe that the countless churches we see today, who all practice and believe wildly different things, can all be the “one body”, “one faith” that God’s word so clearly points to? We make this so much harder than it needs to be. Speak where the bible speaks and be silent where the bible is silent…
If anyone speaks, HE SHOULD DO IT as ONE SPEAKING the VERY WORDS OF GOD. If anyone SERVES, he should DO IT with the STRENGTH GOD PROVIDES, so that in ALL THINGS GOD may be PRAISED THROUGH JESUS CHRIST. To HIM be the GLORY and the POWER for ever and ever. Amen. - 1 Peter 4:11
I tell you this so that NO ONE MAY DECEIVE you by fine-sounding arguments. - Colossians 2:4
There are ministers/evangelists/teachers in Christ’s Church. There is no REQUIREMENT for them to be married, and there is NO REQUIREMENT for them NOT to be married. Whether you want to admit it or not, priests in the Catholic church cannot be married. If you make an exception a few times, remember that is the EXCEPTION, not the norm. That is a doctrine, you can call it discipline, of men, not Christ. Once again, Paul chose not to marry. Peter chose to marry. Both did great works. Abraham was married and had children. Barnabas was married and had children. They all did great works. Noah was married and had children. Remember only 8 people were saved at the great flood. 1 Corinthians 9 tells us that Peter and Barnabas brought their wives with them on their trip. Not an assistant, their wives. In Christ’s Church, it is a REQUIREMENT to be an overseer (also known as bishops, pastors, and elders).
I’m giving you Scriptural references for Christ’s Church. Please stop referring me to books and studies of men. As I quoted Scripture earlier, the Bible is God-Breathed and has everything pertaining to life and godliness. We need no other books to tell us what God really meant. The Bible says that the Bible is for rebuking. We need to know what God’s Word says because we know it was inspired by God, not St. Ignatius’ words which were not inspired by God. If they were, they would be in the Bible
 
Randy,

Colossians 2:9 has the Scripture regarding the Godhead. It reads as follows: For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

You mentioned prophets. We no longer have prophets as we no longer have apostles. To be an apostle, you had to have witnessed Jesus from when he was baptized by John the Baptist to the time he ascended into heaven. That is found in Acts 1:21-22.

In regards to prophecy, the Bible says in 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 that: Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, THEY WILL CEASE; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we PROPHESY in part, but when PERFECTION comes, the imperfect disappears.
The perfection referenced in this Scripture is the complete Bible. During those times, the Old Testament was already written and God gave individuals gifts to reveal certain things pertaining to life and godliness; however, those things would end once the complete Bible was here.

You may doubt what I just wrote, but looks at James 1:25 which reads: But the man who looks intently into the PERFECT LAW that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it - he will be blessed in what he does.

The Bible is complete and has all things pertaining to life and godliness. We even know how the world is going to end and how Jesus will return. The Bible is complete. Prophecies ceased because their was no need for them. What will a prophet reveal to us today? Something that is already in the Bible? If so, how is that a revelation? It is not. If they reveal something to us that is not in the Bible, we know NOT TO BELIEVE it. According to Galatians 1:8: But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! and Revelations 22:18: I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book.

Gentlemen, please take everything that I posted the way that I intended for it to be posted, and that is in love. God wants us all to be saved, and the only way that can happen is by studying His Word and being obedient to what he commands.
 
Someone said that the Catholics wrote the Bible. I beg to differ.
Amen! Catholics love every single one of those verses. However, we disagree with your misuse of them. In short, you’re flat dead wrong.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."69

"For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and the New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and have been handed on as such to the Church herself."70

106 God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. "To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more."71

And those men, whom God chose to write His Word, were members of “the Way”, later known as the “Catholic Church”.

Below is a brief passage from a book that you can read online - not a short article, mind you - you can read the whole book if you like. And you should.

WHERE WE GOT THE BIBLE: OUR DEBT TO THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
By Rev. Henry G. Graham
catholicapologetics.info/apologetics/protestantism/wbible.htm

We are not undervaluing the written Word of God, or placing it on a level inferior to what it deserves. We are simply showing the position it was meant to occupy in the economy of the Christian Church. It was written by the Church, by members (Apostles and Evangelists) of the Church; it belongs to the Church, and it is her office, therefore, to declare what it means. It is intended for instruction, meditation, spiritual reading, encouragement, devotion, and also serves as proof and testimony of the Church’s doctrines and Divine authority; but as a complete and exclusive guide to heaven in the hands of every man—this it never was and never could be.

The Bible in the Church; the Church before the Bible—the Church the Maker and Interpreter of the Bible—that is right. The Bible above the Church; the Bible independent of the Church; the Bible, and the Bible only, the Religion of Christians—that is wrong. The one is the Catholic position; the other the Protestant. (Rev. Henry G. Graham, Where We Got the Bible – Our Debt to the Catholic Church, TAN Publishers, Rockford, IL, p. 29.)
 
Randy,

Once again, you used books written by men to disprove the Bible. I try my best to be like the Bereans, found in Acts 17:11, who searched the Scriptures daily to see if what Paul was saying was true. The Scriptures are the only way we will know God’s will.

I pray that you will search the Scriptures for yourself and learn the true meaning of Christ’s Church and his will. The Bible says if you love me, you will obey my commands. There is no need for us to go back and forth on this issue. Before we started, I should have asked you whether you believed the Bible was God-breathed. If you answered yes, then I would have asked you to take your personal opinion out and I would do the same and let’s search God’s Word and see what the Bible says. It seems that you have more faith in manuals, creeds, and tradition rather than Truth. Scriptures are very important. Remember, Scriptures are what Jesus used against the devil when he was in the wilderness.

In closing, you posted an article by a gentleman who uses a title that is found in the Bible only one time. Not only that, it is only found in the King James Version of the Bible. Its Psalms 111:9 and it says: He sent redemption unto his people: he hath commanded his covenant for ever: holy and REVEREND is HIS NAME.

Remember, folks don’t fall away from the faith all at once. It is a gradual process and is very subtle. Instead of saying “the Bible says,” one says “I believe”, “I feel”, “I think”, etc. God is very specific.

Titus 3:10-11 says: Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them. You may be sure that such people are warped and sinful; they are self-condemned.

Be safe and enjoy the rest of your night.
 
MarioSr
Before we started, I should have asked you whether you believed the Bible was God-breathed. If you answered yes, then I would have asked you to take your personal opinion out and I would do the same and let’s search God’s Word and see what the Bible says. It seems that you have more faith in manuals, creeds, and tradition rather than Truth.
The ONLY reason we have the Bible is because Christ’s Catholic Church declared infallibly what writings compose the Word of God – the Sacred Scriptures. The New Testament is written by Catholics.

Christ wrote nothing but He gave us His Church to teach truth infallibly.
To St Peter alone by Jesus of Nazareth, Son of God, A.D. 33
All four promises to Peter alone:
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19)

Sole authority:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

Would you deny St John and St Paul Too?
The Church is “the pillar and bulwark of the truth (1 Tim 3:16).” St. Paul says also, “through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places (Eph 3:10).” The Church teaches even the angels!

“I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." (John 14:15-18) “The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name, he will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you.” (John 14:26) “But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you. Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that he will take from what is mine and declare it to you.” (John 16:13-15)

St John counsels you: “We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.” (1 Jn 4:6 ).
 
Randy,

Once again, you used books written by men to disprove the Bible. I try my best to be like the Bereans, found in Acts 17:11, who searched the Scriptures daily to see if what Paul was saying was true. The Scriptures are the only way we will know God’s will.
You misunderstand the Bereans.

Berean Rejection of Sola Scriptura
From Steve Ray’s article: catholic.com/thisrock/1997/9703fea3.asp

If one group could be tagged as believers in sola scriptura, who would it be, the Thessalonians or the Bereans? The Thessalonians, obviously. They, like the Bereans, examined the Scriptures with Paul in the synagogue, yet they rejected his teaching. They rejected the new teaching, deciding after three weeks of deliberation that Paul’s word contradicted the Torah. Their decision was not completely unjustified from their scriptural perspective. How could the Messiah of God be cursed by hanging on a tree like a common criminal, publicly displayed as one who bore the judgment of God? What kind of king and Messiah would that be? This seemed irreconcilable to them (see Simon J. Kistemaker, Acts [Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Books, 1990], 614).

When some of the Greeks and prominent citizens did accept Jesus as Messiah, the Jews became jealous—and rightfully so, from their perspective, since the new believers separated themselves from the synagogue and began meeting elsewhere, at Jason’s house. The Jews naturally considered themselves the authoritative interpreters of the Torah. Who were the Gentiles to interpret Scripture and decide important theological issues or accept additional revelation? They were the “dogs,” not the chosen custodians of the oracles of God (see William Barclay, The Acts of the Apostles [Philadelphia, Pennsylvania: Westminster Press, 1976], 128).

We can see, then, that if anyone could be classified as adherents to sola scriptura it was the Thessalonian Jews. They reasoned from the Scriptures alone and concluded that Paul’s new teaching was “unbiblical.”

The Bereans, on the other hand, were not adherents of sola scriptura, for they were willing to accept Paul’s new oral teaching as the word of God (as Paul claimed his oral teaching was; see 1 Thess. 2:13). The Bereans, before accepting the oral word of God from Paul, a tradition as even Paul himself refers to it (see 2 Thess. 2:15), examined the Scriptures to see if these things were so. They were noble-minded precisely because they “received the word with all eagerness.” Were the Bereans commended primarily for searching the Scriptures? No. Their open-minded willingness to listen was the primary reason they are referred to as noble-minded—not that they searched the Scriptures. A perusal of grammars and commentaries makes it clear that they were “noble-minded” not for studying Scripture, but for treating Paul more civilly than did the Thessalonians—with an open mind and generous courtesy (see I. Howard Marshall, “The Acts of the Apostles” in the Tyndale New Testament Commentaries [Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1981], 5:280).

The Bereans searched the Torah no less than the Thessalonians, yet they were eager to accept words of God from the mouth of Paul, in addition to what they already held to be Scripture, that is, the Law and the Prophets. Even if one claims that Paul preached the gospel and not a “tradition,” it is clear that the Bereans were accepting new revelation that was not contained in their Scriptures. These Berean Jews accepted oral teaching, the tradition of the apostles, as equal to Scripture, in addition to, and as an “extension” of, the Torah. This is further illustrated by the Christian community’s reception of Paul’s epistles as divinely inspired Scripture (see 2 Peter 3:16; here Peter seems to acknowledges Paul’s writings as equal to the “other Scriptures,” which can be presumed to refer to the Old Testament).

+++

Those who followed the doctrine of sola scriptura, the Thessalonians, rejected Paul’s oral preaching and the long awaited Messiah. Those who accepted oral teaching AND scripture, the Bereans, accepted the Gospel and the Messiah.

Additionally, although both groups searched the scriptures, they came to contradictory conclusions about the Messiah. Clearly, scripture alone is insufficient to ensure proper interpretation.
 
Randy,

Once again, you used books written by men to disprove the Bible.
No, I referred to books that you can read to learn why your fallible, human interpretations of the scriptures and history are wrong.
I try my best to be like the Bereans, found in Acts 17:11, who searched the Scriptures daily to see if what Paul was saying was true. The Scriptures are the only way we will know God’s will.
Great. However, you can also read good history books to see WHO wrote the Bible and HOW it was preserved down through the course of history. Flash - the Catholic Church was involved in both of these activities. :yup:
Titus 3:10-11 says: Warn a divisive person once, and then warn them a second time. After that, have nothing to do with them. You may be sure that such people are warped and sinful; they are self-condemned.

Be safe and enjoy the rest of your night.
Thanks for your warm wishes. I leave you with this:

[2 Timothy 4:3](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/passage/?search=2 Timothy+4:3&version=NIV)
For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
 
We know that Peter was an elder because he says so in 1 Peter 5:1 which reads: To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder, a witness of Christ’s sufferings and one who also will share in the glory to be revealed…
Actually, Peter said he was a “presbyteros”, that he was a priest (the English transliteration of presbyteros) and was addressing other priests.

But yes, he was one of the older apostles.
 
Actually, Peter said he was a “presbyteros”, that he was a priest (the English transliteration of presbyteros) and was addressing other priests.

But yes, he was one of the older apostles.
“Presbyteros” literally means “elder” in Greek, though. MarioSr is wrong about a great many things, but that’s not one of them.

Usagi
 
“Presbyteros” literally means “elder” in Greek, though. MarioSr is wrong about a great many things, but that’s not one of them.

Usagi
Mario was using it in the sense of someone who is elderly, not as Peter meant it, as him being a priest.
 
MarioSr
There was never an elder over multiple congregations. Yes, Peter was an elder, but he was not over mulitple churches. He did not oversee multiple Churches. When he heard they were doing wrong, he came in and preached to the elders what is right. He was an elder in his local congregation.
False.
Already, Peter had exercised his supreme authority in the upper room before Pentecost to have Judas’ place filled. At the first Apostolic Council of Jerusalem Peter settled the heated discussion over circumcising the gentiles and “the whole assembly fell silent” (Acts 15:7-12). Paul made sure that his ministry to the gentiles was recognised by, Peter (Gal 1:I8).

Tradition shows Pope St Clement exercising his primacy in about 96, on a matter of schism in the Church of Corinth. Of the same generation as Saints Peter and Paul and when St John the Apostle was probably still living in Ephesus, Pope Clement wrote as one commanding to the Church of Corinth in Greece: “If any disobey what He (Christ) says through us, let them know that they will be involved in no small offence and danger, but we shall be innocent of this sin.” (I Clem. ad Cor. 59,1).

About Pope Victor I’s declaration by edict, about the year 200, that any local Church that failed to conform with Rome was excluded from the union with the one Church by heresy, none other than radical Adolph von Harnack admitted that Victor I was “recognised, in his capacity of bishop of Rome, as the special guardian of the ‘common unity’… " (See And On This Rock, p 118, 1987, Trinity Communications, Fr Stanley L Jaki).

Harnack asked: “How would Victor have ventured on such an edict – though indeed he had not the power of enforcing it in every case – unless the special prerogative of Rome to determine the conditions of the ‘common unity’ in the vital questions of faith had been an acknowledged and well-established fact?”
If he cannot marry, he cannot be an overseer (also called bishop, elder, or pastor).
As shown clearly in post #36, there were only continent priests by Apostolic mandate, and from these bishops were made.

In the Acts of the Apostles (14:23) Saints Paul and Barnabas “appointed presbyters (=priests) for them in every church.” Paul and Barnabas were bishops who had received at ordination the power to ordain others. In Greek the words used were presbyteros for priest, elder, presbyter, and episcopos for bishop, overseer, supervisor, or guardian. By the time of St Ignatius of Antioch (d. 107) he speaks of the bishop as one who has “acquired his ministry, not from himself, nor through men”, and that he is to be regarded “as the Lord Himself.” (Ep. Ad Philad., 1; Ephes. 6).
 
Abu,

Matthew 16:18 says Christ will build HIS church on the rock. Yes, but Peter is not the rock. What Peter said, the confession that Christ was the Son of the Living God, was the rock. You can find that in Matt 16:16-17. It further says that it was revealed to him by God, not of his own.

Yes, we know that the gates of Hell will not prevail against Christ’s Church because He said so, and He cannot lie. If the Catholic church was Christ’s Church, wouldn’t you think it would follow the pattern He left in the Bible? If you believe the Catholics wrote the Bible, first of all, you are discrediting the Bible because it says that the Bible is God-breathed. Secondly, if the Catholics wrote the Bible, why are they not following what they wrote? Elder, Presbytr, Bishop, Overseer and Pastor all mean the same thing. The requirement was for them to be married and have children.

Thirdly, if they were following what they wrote, they would follow the Scriptures when talking about baptism, which comes from the Greek word ‘baptizo’ which means fully immersed. Not christening and not sprinkling. Finally, the individuals being baptized would be free willing participants who can hear the Word, believe the Word, repent of their sins, confess that Christ was the Son of God, and be Baptized (fully immersed) for the forgiveness of their sins. A baby cannot believe, repent, and confess; nor is a baby a willing participant. The parents are. Look at every example in the Bible of baptisms and you will see that everyone heard the Word, believed it, repented, confessed, and were baptized. You can go to the 3000 souls saved on the Day of Pentecost to the Ethiopian Eunuch, Cornelius, Lydia, Saul (later becoming Paul), the Phillippian Jailor, etc. Oh, don’t let us forget that Jesus set the example in Matthew 3:13-17. There are two examples of the Holy Spirit descending on men by fire, the first was the apostles on the Day of Pentecost and that was for the Jews to believe that the apostles were followers of Christ. The second example is Cornelius, for the apostles to believe that salvation was for the Gentiles as well. Read Acts 10:47-48. Peter says that Cornelius received the Holy Spirit, JUST AS THEY HAD, and he (Peter) ordered that they be baptized in the name of Christ. The Bible infers that the apostles also were baptized after they received the Holy Spirit. You will not find one baby being baptized in the Bible. We should speak where the Bible speaks and should be silent where the Bible is silent.

Yes, Peter was given the keys to the kingdom, but the keys that the Bible is speaking of is the Gospel and God’s Word, not literal keys. If we follow God’s Word, we will make it to heaven, if we do not follow God’s Word, we will not make it to heaven. Remember, Peter never spoke on his own, it was the Holy Spirit, which is God and Jesus, that spoke through Peter. God is the Word (John 1:1). Whatever the Word bound on earth is bound, and whatever the Word bound in heaven is bound.

Since we know that the gates of hell will not prevail against Christ’s Church, and the devil also knows that he cannot prevail against Christ’s Church, what does the devil do? He makes a bunch of look-a-like churches and have them all claim to be Christ’s Church. Fooling the folks. If we study God’s Word, we will know what is required in Christ’s Church. The overseers (presbytrs, bishops, elders, pastors) and deacons are married with children, and are in local congregations only. They set the examples for the flock. Anyone not following Scriptural doctrine can call themselves whatever they would like, but the Bible calls them false teachers and I call them look-a-like churches that are fooling folks.
Would you deny St John and St Paul Too?
The Church is “the pillar and bulwark of the truth (1 Tim 3:16).” St. Paul says also, “through the Church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places (Eph 3:10).” The Church teaches even the angels!

“I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." (John 14:15-18) “The Advocate, the holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name, he will teach you everything and remind you of all that I told you.” (John 14:26) “But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you. Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that he will take from what is mine and declare it to you.” (John 16:13-15)

St John counsels you: “We belong to God, and anyone who knows God listens to us, while anyone who does not belong to God refuses to hear us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of deceit.” (1 Jn 4:6 ).
 
Brendan,

I meant elder as the Bible terms elder meaning overseer, not as a priest. The Bible is silent on ministers/teachers being married, but it is not silent on elders and deacons.
 
Abu,

What supreme apostolic presence was Peter displaying in Acts 1:23-26? Just because he was speaking, does that mean he was over everyone? I would disagree. Vs 23 says THEY proposed two men, not HE. Vs 24 says show US.

Regarding apostolic powers, we know that the apostles had powers and gifts. The apostle could pass those gifts on to another individual, who was not an apostle, to do good works; HOWEVER, the person DID NOT have the ability to pass on those powers. Since we know this to be true, we know that when the apostles died, those powers were no longer passed on. In addition, when the people who received those gifts from the apostles died, those gifts ceased.
 
Usagi,

I’m going to give you Scriptures which talk about the way that Christ’s Church leadership is to be set up. I won’t post the entire Scriptures, just the chapters and verses. Please read them and tell me whether or not your Bible says the same thing.

Elders
All served under Christ…Ephesians 1:22-23; Colossians 1:18
Spiritual oversight…Acts 14:23; Acts 20:17; Titus 1:5
Plurality (meaning more than one) in each church (local congregation)…Acts 14:23; Titus 1:5-9
In ever congregation…Acts 14:23; Acts 20:17-28
Headquarters in heaven…1 Peter 3:22; Acts 2:29-36
Autonomous (self-governing) congregations 1 Peter 5:2

Elders are also called:
Bishop - 1 Timothy 3:1-13
Elder - 1 Peter 5:1
Overseer - Acts 20:28
Pastor - Ephesians 4:11
Presbyter - 1 Timothy 5:1
Ruler - Hebrews 13:7, Hebrews 13:17
Shepherd - 1 Peter 5:2

Deacons
also called servants, helpers, of Church
To Serve - Commission…Acts 6:1-6; 1 Timothy 3:8-13; Philemon 1:1
Under oversight of Elders…Acts 20:28
Special Responsibility/service…Hebrews 13:7, Hebrews 13:17
Do all to the glory of God…1 Corinthians 10:31

Preacher
Servant of the Lord…2 Timothy 2:24
Evangelist or Teacher…Ephesians 4:11, Eph 4:15
Evangelist…Acts 21:8
Minister…1 Peter 4:11
Preacher…Galatians 4:13
Preacher…Romans 1:15

What are the Works of Preachers?
Preach the Word…2 Timothy 4:2
Teacher/Trainer of the young… 2 Timothy 2:2
Student of the Word… 2 Timothy 4:13
Discerning student… 2 Timothy 2:15
Communicator… 1 Timothy 6:18
Reminder to brethren… 1 Timothy 4:6
Avoid strifes…2 Timothy 2:23
Builds up local church…Titus 1:5
Speak, exhort, rebuke…Titus 2:15
Hold fast sound words… 2 Timothy 1:13-14
Rebuke sharply the unruly…Titus 1:10-13

Qualifications of a Preacher?
Obedient follower of Christ…1 Corinthians 9:22-27
Sincere…2 Corinthians 5:1-2
Faithful Preacher…Romans 15:17-19
Loyal to the truth…1 Timothy 4:1; 1 Timothy 6:3
Diligent labourer…1 Corinthians 15:10
Example of the believers…1 Timothy 4:12; 1 Timothy 5:22
Prayerful Person… Acts 6:4
Meek, gentle attitude…2 Timothy 2:22-26
Impartial…1 Timothy 5:21
Willing to suffer hardship…2 Timothy 4:5
Courageous…Acts 20:22-24
Industrious…2 Corinthians 10:12
Temperate…1 Corinthians 9:25-27
 
Gentleman:

Does your Bible say the same:

1 Titus:5-9
The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and APPOINT ELDERS IN EVERY TOWN, as I directed you. An elder MUST BE blameless, THE HUSBAND of but one wife, a MAN WHOSE CHILDREN believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient. SINCE AN OVERSEER IS ENTRUSTED WITH GOD’S WORK, he must be blameless—not overbearing, not quick-tempered, not given to drunkenness, not violent, not pursuing dishonest gain. Rather he must be hospitable, one who loves what is good, who is self-controlled, upright, holy and disciplined. He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

If it does, it shows the the elders are in every local congregation. In those days, there was only ONE local church in each town. Ie: The Church at Corinth, Ephesus, etc. Those were local congregations.

Secondly, we know that the elder MUST BE a husband (meaning married) and have children. You can try and reason this all that you like, but must be is written there one time and it lists blameless, husband of but one wife, man whose children believe and are not open… For some reason, no one ever questions blameless. I capitalized the words for attention only. The overseer must be married, have children, etc because they are entrusted with God’s work.

1 Timothy 3:2-5:
Now the overseer MUST BE above reproach, THE HUSBAND of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage HIS OWN FAMILY well and see that HIS CHILDREN obey him with proper respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage HIS OWN FAMILY, HOW CAN HE TAKE CARE of God’s church?)

The Bible is very clear. I don’t see how we are missing this. God says, how can someone take care of his flock and run Christ’s Church if they are not married, don’t have children, etc. There is no way around Scripture. Either we believe what is written, or we do not. What we “feel” has no place in this discussion.
 
The Bible is very clear. I don’t see how we are missing this. God says, how can someone take care of his flock and run Christ’s Church if they are not married, don’t have children, etc. There is no way around Scripture.
:nope:

You are overreaching to make scripture ‘fit’ your prejudices.

Elders (deacons) … are to be married. :yup: They are many, and serve social role for churches … and have more time to devote to families than pastors/priest do.

But, Bishops are different status. Bishops are akin to the apostles of first century. As Paul says … it is better if they be single / unmarried.

And priests [pastors] … function best if single. More time [devotion] to the flock w/o family dividing their attentions. Just ask Protestant pastor’s wives/children what neglect they often endure.
 
Peter is not the rock. What Peter said, the confession that Christ was the Son of the Living God, was the rock.
Nope …

Simon’s name was changed to Rock … to prevent you from making your mistake. Yet you fell into error in reading of scripture anyways. :eek:
 
Abu,

If the Catholic church was Christ’s Church, wouldn’t you think it would follow the pattern He left in the Bible? If you believe the Catholics wrote the Bible, first of all, you are discrediting the Bible because it says that the Bible is God-breathed. Secondly, if the Catholics wrote the Bible, why are they not following what they wrote?
Catholics have no issue about ‘God-breathed’ scripture. The 1st Century Catholics were inspired to write the N.T. books. But, they wrote them. God didn’t ‘dictate’ the words to them … as you seem to believe.
 
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