Did Pope Benedict commit litugrical abuse with the Eastern Orthodox?

[Angel_Gabriel]

Is it a heresy to say the filioque in English, if the Mass is said in Greece for the English speaking living there?

see I’m not sure. I suppose it’s paying homage to the tradition and official language of the Latin Church. I say this b/c during our Divine Liturgy which is 100% in English, we do NOT say the filioque. But just next door at the RC Cathedral they do say the filioque in English.

 

[bben15]

Hello, Pope Benedict did not celebrate a Divine Liturgy. He was just attending as a guest at a Divine Liturgy celebrated by the Patriarch of Constantinople. He did not receive the Eucharist. He did, however, give a homily, expressing his wish that the Catholic and Orthodox Churches will one day, reunite.

God Bless.

 

[bben15]

Is it a heresy to say the filioque in English, if the Mass is said in Greece for the English speaking living there?

The filioque is not said in a Divine Liturgy, whether it is Orthodox or Eastern Catholic. The reason being is it is not within their tradition to say the filioque.

It is however, unacceptable to exclude the filioque during a Latin Mass, or to include the filioque during a Divine Liturgy. The reason being is that every Catholic must observe the traditions of whichever service that are at.

God Bless.

 

[Salusa]

This is correct. From what I understand, there is no concise way to say “and from the son” in Greek that doesn’t cause doctrinal issues, so it was omitted even in Greek Catholic liturgies.

I’m not sure, but it may have been initially included, but removed after ecumenical discussions with the orthodox revealed the issue.

What about Latin Rite liturgy celebrated in Greek? Is the Filioque included? Are there even Latin rite Catholics in Greece that celebrate the liturgy in Greek?

 

[bben15]

What about Latin Rite liturgy celebrated in Greek? Is the Filioque included? Are there even Latin rite Catholics in Greece that celebrate the liturgy in Greek?

Absolutely! There are also Byzantine Greek Catholics who celebrate the Divine Liturgy in Greek.

 

[Salusa]

Absolutely! There are also Byzantine Greek Catholics who celebrate the Divine Liturgy in Greek.

I thought that saying the Filioque in Greek was heretical because of linguistics. Is it included in Latin rite parishes in Greece that use Greek?

I thought That there was simply no correct way to say “and the son” in Greek without it leading to heresy. That’s why the Greeks rejected it, amongst other reasons. Am I wrong?

Latin rite Catholics can say it in Greek without being heretical, but Eastern rite Catholics cannot say it in Greek?

What gives? I am confused about this issue.

 

[Angel_Gabriel]

I thought that saying the Filioque in Greek was heretical because of linguistics. Is it included in Latin rite parishes in Greece that use Greek?

I thought That there was simply no correct way to say “and the son” in Greek without it leading to heresy. That’s why the Greeks rejected it, amongst other reasons. Am I wrong?

Latin rite Catholics can say it in Greek without being heretical, but Eastern rite Catholics cannot say it in Greek?

What gives? I am confused about this issue.

you are correct…it is a linguistic issue. The percentage of Roman Catholics in Greece is ridiculously small and I think that most are not ethnically Greek but from neighboring countries (someone correct me if I’m wrong though).

Roman Catholicism in Greece from wikipedia en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism_in_Greece

 

[bben15]

I thought that saying the Filioque in Greek was heretical because of linguistics. Is it included in Latin rite parishes in Greece that use Greek?

I thought That there was simply no correct way to say “and the son” in Greek without it leading to heresy. That’s why the Greeks rejected it, amongst other reasons. Am I wrong?

Latin rite Catholics can say it in Greek without being heretical, but Eastern rite Catholics cannot say it in Greek?

What gives? I am confused about this issue.

Oh, I misunderstood what you were saying. I think I might understand what you are saying now, but correct me if I don’t understand. When a Mass is said in Greek, the filioque is not included because the Greek word for procession, “ekporeusis,” means “ultimate origin.” When translated in Greek, this means the Holy Spirit is the Son of the Father, which is in direct contrast to what it should mean, the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. So as a result, the filioque is just erased in Masses in the Greek language. Forgive me if I still don’t understand what you’re saying.

God Bless.

 

[runningdude]

What about Latin Rite liturgy celebrated in Greek? Is the Filioque included? Are there even Latin rite Catholics in Greece that celebrate the liturgy in Greek?

I retracted this part of my post in light of new information. I do not know how the say they translate the Latin liturgy back into Greek.

If they use the ancient, original Greek version of the Nicene Creed, then they must omit the the “And the Son”, as they Greek version uses a different word for “proceeds” that makes adding the son theologically inappropriate.

If they use a modern translation of the Nicene Creed from Latin back to Greek, then they could use the “And the Son”, as long as they use an appropriate word for “proceed”.

 

[agnes_therese]

I saw a video created by a Sedevacantist . . .

And you pay attention to this source why?

 

[UncleBill]

Absolutely! There are also Byzantine Greek Catholics who celebrate the Divine Liturgy in Greek.

ABSOLUTELY NOT! The filioque is NEVER recited in the creed when the creed is recited in GREEK,NEVER! The filioque when used in Greek is heretical both to the East and the West…it does not mean the same as the filioque does in Latin.

I have attended mass at the RC cathedral in Athens many times the filioque was NOT used in any language…I believe this is out of respect to the Orthodox…the Catholic/Orthodox commission has come to the conclusion that Rome has approved, that the filioque is a Latin liturgical anomaly…it need not be used in the creed in any language. IMHO it should be dropped in all churches.

 

[Tomdstone]

ABSOLUTELY NOT! The filioque is NEVER recited in the creed when the creed is recited in GREEK,NEVER! The filioque when used in Greek is heretical both to the East and the West…it does not mean the same as the filioque does in Latin.

I have attended mass at the RC cathedral in Athens many times the filioque was NOT used in any language…I believe this is out of respect to the Orthodox…the Catholic/Orthodox commission has come to the conclusion that Rome has approved, that the filioque is a Latin liturgical anomaly…it need not be used in the creed in any language. IMHO it should be dropped in all churches.

Why is filioque a heresy in Greek, but not in Latin?

 

[Filioque]

While for Catholics of the Eastern and Oriental Rites the inclusion of the Filioque is not mandated by Rome, (some did in many places in the past, sometimes because of heavy handed Latin Ordinaries) The Holy See never required it of the Churches who returned to Unity with the See.

While it is true that Pope Benedict did not concelebrate the Liturgy with any Orthodox bishops, or even the Metropolitain, we must remember that the Pope is the supreme legislator in the Catholic Church, and as such he may dispense himself from the law, including Liturgical Law. If a Pope desires to celebrate Mass and omit the Liturgy of the Word, he does not commit any liturgical abuse because he has the liberty and authority to do so. As long as there is an offretory, consecration and he consumes the oblation, the Mass is both valid and licit. All others must follow the rubrics unless they have been given an indult for a specific modification to the Liturgy.

One example given in Liturgy class while I was a seminarian was a parish in Italy where the priest finishes the Mass at the credence table after communion. The indult was given for priests at that parish to do so on the anniversary of a day during WWII when a bomb demolished the main altar as the priest was returning for the ablutions after communion. I don’t know if the indult was continued after the OF was imposed, but prior to Vatican II the parish had the indult for a modification to the liturgy on that one day each year.

 

[Tomdstone]

ABSOLUTELY NOT! The filioque is NEVER recited in the creed when the creed is recited in GREEK,NEVER! The filioque when used in Greek is heretical both to the East and the West…it does not mean the same as the filioque does in Latin.

I have attended mass at the RC cathedral in Athens many times the filioque was NOT used in any language…I believe this is out of respect to the Orthodox…the Catholic/Orthodox commission has come to the conclusion that Rome has approved, that the filioque is a Latin liturgical anomaly…it need not be used in the creed in any language. IMHO it should be dropped in all churches.

Why did the Roman Catholic Church anthematise and excommunicate the Greek Cerularius for omitting the filioque from the Greek creed? Was it wrong to do so, since according to you, it is a heresy to add the filioque to the Greek creed?

 

[runningdude]

Why is filioque a heresy in Greek, but not in Latin?

Already answered on page 1 or 2.

 

[runningdude]

Why did the Roman Catholic Church anthematise and excommunicate the Greek Cerularius for omitting the filioque from the Greek creed? Was it wrong to do so, since according to you, it is a heresy to add the filioque to the Greek creed?

The church can make errors in discipline.

 

[all4mary]

The churches are so close. I think they should be one again

 

[Filii_Dei]

The churches are so close. I think they should be one again

I truly hope so too.

 

[robwar]

I saw a video created by a Sedevacantist that supposedly shows of Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI (this took place about 3 years ago I think) celebrating Mass according to the Eastern Orthodox rite with an Orthodox Metropolitan in Greek and they were supposedly saying the Nicene Creed without the Filioque clause (because the Orthodox do not believe in the filioque). Now I don’t know if that’s what really went on for sure because I don’t know Greek, but the title of the video was “Benedict XVI Chants Nicece Creed in Greek with Metrolpolitan without the Flioque Clause.” Does anybody know about this, and if he truly did that, was it sinful or against the Church in any way, shape or form?

stop watching videos by sedevancantist that are trying to place doubts in your head and twist things around to make it sound like “liturgical abuse”. This is ridiculous and shows a lack of understanding of the other 22 approved rites. Pope Benedict committing liturgical abuse?
Seriously, don’t they have better things to do than make videos twisting around what happen in order to promote their own twisted view of things.

 

[Tomdstone]

The church can make errors in discipline.

The filioque is not discipline, but a solemn teaching of the Roman Catholic Church as stated in the Ecumenical 14th Council, Second Council of Lyons (A.D. 1274).

" We profess faithfully and devotedly that the holy Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son, not as from two principles, but as from one principle; not by two spirations, but by one single spiration. This the holy Roman church, mother and mistress of all the faithful, has till now professed, preached and taught; this she firmly holds, preaches, professes and teaches; this is the unchangeable and true belief of the orthodox fathers and doctors, Latin and Greek alike. But because some, on account of ignorance of the said indisputable truth, have fallen into various errors, we, wishing to close the way to such errors, with the approval of the sacred council, condemn and reprove all who presume to deny that the holy Spirit proceeds eternally from the Father and the Son, or rashly to assert that the holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son as from two principles and not as from one."