J
joshrp
Guest
You can hurt someone with art.
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L
Lost_Wanderer
Guest
Yet how they react is dependent on their taste and taste is relative. Furthermore, defining ‘better’ becomes arbitrary too when we’re talking art.
That depends on how you define better… which is yet another point of mine which you have proven for me.
Not as much as you can with an AK-47.
J
joshrp
Guest
How a person reacts to art is based on human nature, not taste. Human nature is not relative. Human nature is absolute, and something we all share, whether we like it or not.
L
Lost_Wanderer
Guest
Actually no. You want proof? The relative concept of beauty. Some people in some countries find long necks attractive, others large lips, and other still, in tiny feet.
It applies to other senses. I for one despise the smell of the durian fruit but my parents are intoxicated by it. While classical music blows you away, it makes me wanna drill a hole in my head.
However, is there a moral imperative or value in being one or the other? No.
J
joshrp
Guest
If someone makes a piece of art depicting a person being raped, tortured, having their skin ripped off, and then says to the person viewing that they should do this, with the intention of convincing people to do it to others, would you agree that this kind of art is evil?
J
joshrp
Guest
If someone insists on calling something like this art, would you agree with them that it is art?
L
Lost_Wanderer
Guest
It’s demented sure but it doesn’t change the fact that it’s still just a completely fabricated image. Obviously you’ve never seen how obscure art critics can interpret a glass on a shelf. There’s no telling how such people interpret such imagery.
Tired of proving my points yet?
J
joshrp
Guest
Intentions have consequences, based on natural law. What happens is not a matter of what you want to happen, or think will happen, or hope will happen, or would like to happen. There is a direct causal relationship between what one promotes and how others react to it, that is founded on how God made the human psychology. The mind has principles that cannot be violated or else you drive it into the ground. Some art violates the laws of human cognition and directly destroys people.
L
Lost_Wanderer
Guest
The very obscure and relative nature of art destroys all that. Look at literature for instance. Ever heard of reader-oriented theories? There are various types that usually stem from post-structuralist theory but most if not all have a view that disregards any author’s intention. See once you start calling something a ‘work of art’ people are no longer bound to interpret it seriously as they would interpret an instruction manual. It’s basically up for grabs.
Have you ever actually read anything close to a review or a critique? It’s just a highly publicized and intellectualized opinion. However, it is an opinion STILL.
That is why you can’t apply your absolute reasoning because in art, everyone’s opinion of something will be just that.
Now, if your hypothetical picture was instead a piece of propaganda thrown off by enemy warplanes, then maybe you can make your little morality speeches.
T
Theophilus777
Guest
I was a teenager in the 70’s so I’m familiar with the evolution of Rock and Roll. My grandmother listened to ragtime but most modern rock has its roots in the blues genre, particularly the pentatonic scale.
Not all rock music is deliberately satanic, but some of it actually is. There are some bands who have reportedly taken the master material used to produce the records/tapes/cd’s to satanic rituals but such things are usually denied. Backmasking shows subliminal messages in many very popular songs. The Led Zeppelin song “Stairway to Heaven,” has a line which goes. “if there’s a bustle in your hedgerow don’t be alarmed now, it’s just a spring clean for the may queen.” which, when played backwards, has a satanic message in very clearly discernible words. I’ve heard this so I can verify it as true.
For the most part, however, it’s the message of the lyrics as well as the lifestyles of the musicians and songwriters themselves which either point to or lead away from the truth. It’s a tough call to be able to pick out the wheat from the weeds in terms of rock music but it can be done. In 1979 I chose(entirely my own decision–no wild preacher revival meeting influenced this)to destroy 150 LP vinyl albums. Everything from the Beatles to Led Zeppelin to Alice Cooper. You name it, I had it. I decided to make a clean and total break with it and don’t regret doing it but I do have a few CDs. CSNY for example, were really not that bad. Also I can listen to some of Peter Gabriel’s music(reference Mercy Street on the “So” album, or “Blood of Eden” on the "Us"album.
However, it takes a bit of discernment to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff. I didn’t have this ability as a younger man so I believe it was wisdom to part from it when I did, and I still ask for advice when I do listen to stuff from the past today.
Some of Elton John’s songs are actually quite good but I can’t condone his music because of his lifestyle. I believe that sometimes the message can be tainted by the lack of integrity of the messenger.
Not all rock music is deliberately satanic, but some of it actually is. There are some bands who have reportedly taken the master material used to produce the records/tapes/cd’s to satanic rituals but such things are usually denied. Backmasking shows subliminal messages in many very popular songs. The Led Zeppelin song “Stairway to Heaven,” has a line which goes. “if there’s a bustle in your hedgerow don’t be alarmed now, it’s just a spring clean for the may queen.” which, when played backwards, has a satanic message in very clearly discernible words. I’ve heard this so I can verify it as true.
For the most part, however, it’s the message of the lyrics as well as the lifestyles of the musicians and songwriters themselves which either point to or lead away from the truth. It’s a tough call to be able to pick out the wheat from the weeds in terms of rock music but it can be done. In 1979 I chose(entirely my own decision–no wild preacher revival meeting influenced this)to destroy 150 LP vinyl albums. Everything from the Beatles to Led Zeppelin to Alice Cooper. You name it, I had it. I decided to make a clean and total break with it and don’t regret doing it but I do have a few CDs. CSNY for example, were really not that bad. Also I can listen to some of Peter Gabriel’s music(reference Mercy Street on the “So” album, or “Blood of Eden” on the "Us"album.
However, it takes a bit of discernment to be able to separate the wheat from the chaff. I didn’t have this ability as a younger man so I believe it was wisdom to part from it when I did, and I still ask for advice when I do listen to stuff from the past today.
Some of Elton John’s songs are actually quite good but I can’t condone his music because of his lifestyle. I believe that sometimes the message can be tainted by the lack of integrity of the messenger.
L
Lost_Wanderer
Guest
I don’t see why it’s so hard to separate the musician from the music. I mean do I care about the personal life of the lady I buy cellphone load from?
With that said, I don’t listen to any of Elton John’s music apart from the ones he sung for animated films such as The Lion King and The Road to El Dorado. Although, personally, I prefer the Timon and Pumbaa version of one of 'em.
It’s hard for me to get The Trail We Blaze out of my head though.
J
joshrp
Guest
I’ve heard somewhere that when black musicians were trying to play Classical music in the South, they were told “Don’t play this, you play your own n-----er music” And that’s how Blues came to be. Frederick Douglass experienced the similar thing. He was an escaped slave, and when he started giving speeches about abolition and stuff, his friends would tell him “Hey, don’t talk so articulate and intelligently. People won’t actually believe you were a slave if you do.” Really, it all boils down to people telling others that they can’t compose a Classical masterpiece, so they are ostracized and harassed unless they settle for something less beautiful.
This is how oligarchies work. They use art as political propaganda to destroy people’s spirit to do hard things. They convince people that they are not capable of advanced forms of beauty. Certain people are angry because they just don’t seem to get it, so instead of struggling with it and not giving up, they just rage out at anyone who does the work. The fact that other people are trying hard makes them resentful and feel guilty. Some people who are into Classical music really don’t understand it. My whole view is “You really don’t have a clue what you are missing.” If you listen to rock music all the time, Classical music can literally make you physically sick. It’s like quitting a narcotic cold turkey and going sober. It is really uncomfortable and sometimes painful. I was watching “The Magic Flute” and it was almost painful, although I thought it was the most beautiful piece of artwork I had ever seen. But after a while, once you clear your system, honestly, you see the results that Classical music has on your mind, your life, your relationships, your work, your study, everything. It’s like Jesus and the Catholic Church. People can get physically sick in church if they are so used to sinning and rejecting the church’s teachings. Does that make the church a matter of taste. No it’s a matter of human nature. God made man to be with Himself, and the church is the vessel which brings us to Him.
Classical art is the way to make us think clearly. And it will help us understand the Catholic Church better as well. Because genuine Classical music would not exist without the aesthetic philosophy of the Catholic Church.
L
Lost_Wanderer
Guest
No, people rage out because condescending classicists like you act all elitists and give insulting opinions that nobody asked for. For proof of such insensitivity and lack of tact, read further on.
Really? I stopped at the first two minutes because I thought I was in a 50s-style children’s movie. Maybe I’d listen to it fully right after watching Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory but I’m not in the mood for that right now.
Honestly, reading your post makes me almost assume that you think Classical music is some kind of miracle cure. A brief read up on the life of Mozart told me otherwise.
J
joshrp
Guest
Honestly, you probably listened to a very bad performance. You have to listen to a competent performance, or else you don’t really know what Mozart wrote.No, people rage out because condescending classicists like you act all elitists and give insulting opinions that nobody asked for. For proof of such insensitivity and lack of tact, read further on.
Really? I stopped at the first two minutes because I thought I was in a 50s-style children’s movie. Maybe I’d listen to it fully right after watching Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory but I’m not in the mood for that right now.
Honestly, reading your post makes me almost assume that you think Classical music is some kind of miracle cure. A brief read up on the life of Mozart told me otherwise.
J
Joe_5859
Guest
Josh,
If I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that art can either more or less conform itself to what is true, good, and beautiful. Some things that call themselves art do not conform to the true, good or beautiful very much at all. Other works of art conform much more so. I hope I am understanding your basic point correctly.
I agree with that. Of course, I would say there is a spectrum of conformity. It is not a matter of simply whether it does or does not. Since works of art are created by us limited human individuals, no work of art – no matter how sublime – will conform perfectly to the True, Good, and Beautiful, which is God Himself.
I do not think that it is fair or honest to paint the entirety of rock music with one brush and say that it is impossible – by nature of the genre itself – that any piece of rock music could ever conform to the true, good, and beautiful in any capacity whatsoever. In my experience, that is not the case.
When I listen to something like A Change of Seasons by the band Dream Theater, I find lots of truth, goodness, and beauty. Indeed, I find it somewhat transcendent.
Now, as to the claims about the “satanic origins” of rock, I find that argument lacking on several levels. First, I am very skeptical about the internet conspiracy theories. They seem to paint the picture of one satan-worshipping guy to whom Satan was whispering in his ear coming up with “rock music” by crafting a genre deliberately to bypass the will of all who hear it so that, without their knowledge or consent, they will – with utmost certainty – be led to hell merely by listening to it. Sorry, I don’t buy it. It sounds more like the plot of a Jack Chick tract than a factual account of the history of rock.
But I haven’t really looked into the origins of rock myself because, frankly, it doesn’t matter. Church history is full of examples of the Church taking pagan things, holding up what is good in them, and using them for Christian purposes. Even if the originator of rock music had evil intentions, that doesn’t make the whole genre perpetually evil.
As to the concept of “simple chords”, I would again point you to the above Dream Theater song. There’s nothing simple about it.
But regardless, there’s no reason that art cannot still be true, good, and beautiful even if it is simple. Indeed, there is much truth, goodness, and beauty in simplicity.
Finally, I would say that trying to say something uniform about all “rock music” is a bit like trying to nail jello to the wall. There are so many genres and sub-genres of all types that fall under the “rock” umbrella. I don’t see how one could condemn the genre of rock music unless one is willing to condemn the use of rhythm in music. Because that’s about the only thing that it all has in common (and even that is iffy when you consider progressive rock).
That’s my take on it. I look forward to any insight you have to offer.
If I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that art can either more or less conform itself to what is true, good, and beautiful. Some things that call themselves art do not conform to the true, good or beautiful very much at all. Other works of art conform much more so. I hope I am understanding your basic point correctly.
I agree with that. Of course, I would say there is a spectrum of conformity. It is not a matter of simply whether it does or does not. Since works of art are created by us limited human individuals, no work of art – no matter how sublime – will conform perfectly to the True, Good, and Beautiful, which is God Himself.
I do not think that it is fair or honest to paint the entirety of rock music with one brush and say that it is impossible – by nature of the genre itself – that any piece of rock music could ever conform to the true, good, and beautiful in any capacity whatsoever. In my experience, that is not the case.
When I listen to something like A Change of Seasons by the band Dream Theater, I find lots of truth, goodness, and beauty. Indeed, I find it somewhat transcendent.
Now, as to the claims about the “satanic origins” of rock, I find that argument lacking on several levels. First, I am very skeptical about the internet conspiracy theories. They seem to paint the picture of one satan-worshipping guy to whom Satan was whispering in his ear coming up with “rock music” by crafting a genre deliberately to bypass the will of all who hear it so that, without their knowledge or consent, they will – with utmost certainty – be led to hell merely by listening to it. Sorry, I don’t buy it. It sounds more like the plot of a Jack Chick tract than a factual account of the history of rock.
But I haven’t really looked into the origins of rock myself because, frankly, it doesn’t matter. Church history is full of examples of the Church taking pagan things, holding up what is good in them, and using them for Christian purposes. Even if the originator of rock music had evil intentions, that doesn’t make the whole genre perpetually evil.
As to the concept of “simple chords”, I would again point you to the above Dream Theater song. There’s nothing simple about it.
But regardless, there’s no reason that art cannot still be true, good, and beautiful even if it is simple. Indeed, there is much truth, goodness, and beauty in simplicity.Finally, I would say that trying to say something uniform about all “rock music” is a bit like trying to nail jello to the wall. There are so many genres and sub-genres of all types that fall under the “rock” umbrella. I don’t see how one could condemn the genre of rock music unless one is willing to condemn the use of rhythm in music. Because that’s about the only thing that it all has in common (and even that is iffy when you consider progressive rock).
That’s my take on it. I look forward to any insight you have to offer.
J
joshrp
Guest
Classical music is a miracle cure, but it doesn’t cure everything at once. It will cure most of your problems if you take it seriously too. But you still need Jesus and the Catholic Church as well. There should be no more rock and roll style music at Masses. It is disrespectful to God.No, people rage out because condescending classicists like you act all elitists and give insulting opinions that nobody asked for. For proof of such insensitivity and lack of tact, read further on.
Really? I stopped at the first two minutes because I thought I was in a 50s-style children’s movie. Maybe I’d listen to it fully right after watching Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory but I’m not in the mood for that right now.
Honestly, reading your post makes me almost assume that you think Classical music is some kind of miracle cure. A brief read up on the life of Mozart told me otherwise.
J
joshrp
Guest
Honestly, I don’t believe in the idea of genres in music. It is a meaningless concept to me. It is either music or it isn’t. What I am criticizing is a particular PHILOSOPHY of music. There are people who call themselves Rock and Roll artists who don’t totally conform to the original philosophy that was intended for this so called “music”. God shines through somehow, but the whole idea that you have to limit yourself to one or another “genre” is stifling the God given creative powers we are born with.Josh,
If I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that art can either more or less conform itself to what is true, good, and beautiful. Some things that call themselves art do not conform to the true, good or beautiful very much at all. Other works of art conform much more so. I hope I am understanding your basic point correctly.
I agree with that. Of course, I would say there is a spectrum of conformity. It is not a matter of simply whether it does or does not. Since works of art are created by us limited human individuals, no work of art – no matter how sublime – will conform perfectly to the True, Good, and Beautiful, which is God Himself.
I do not think that it is fair or honest to paint the entirety of rock music with one brush and say that it is impossible – by nature of the genre itself – that any piece of rock music could ever conform to the true, good, and beautiful in any capacity whatsoever. In my experience, that is not the case.
When I listen to something like A Change of Seasons by the band Dream Theater, I find lots of truth, goodness, and beauty. Indeed, I find it somewhat transcendent.
Now, as to the claims about the “satanic origins” of rock, I find that argument lacking on several levels. First, I am very skeptical about the internet conspiracy theories. They seem to paint the picture of one satan-worshipping guy to whom Satan was whispering in his ear coming up with “rock music” by crafting a genre deliberately to bypass the will of all who hear it so that, without their knowledge or consent, they will – with utmost certainty – be led to hell merely by listening to it. Sorry, I don’t buy it. It sounds more like the plot of a Jack Chick tract than a factual account of the history of rock.
But I haven’t really looked into the origins of rock myself because, frankly, it doesn’t matter. Church history is full of examples of the Church taking pagan things, holding up what is good in them, and using them for Christian purposes. Even if the originator of rock music had evil intentions, that doesn’t make the whole genre perpetually evil.
As to the concept of “simple chords”, I would again point you to the above Dream Theater song. There’s nothing simple about it.
Finally, I would say that trying to say something uniform about all “rock music” is a bit like trying to nail jello to the wall. There are so many genres and sub-genres of all types that fall under the “rock” umbrella. I don’t see how one could condemn the genre of rock music unless one is willing to condemn the use of rhythm in music. Because that’s about the only thing that it all has in common (and even that is iffy when you consider progressive rock).
That’s my take on it. I look forward to any insight you have to offer.
J
joshrp
Guest
Honestly, when Bach was around, I don’t even think they called anything Classical music. There was just “music”. And then these crazy people came in and started segregated people like it was apartheid or something.
L
Lost_Wanderer
Guest
Tell that to your idol Mozart.
That has more to do with context than the music. One can admit that Gregorian chant fits the culturally prevalent image of medieval Catholic cathedrals. On the other hand, I doubt that’s the kind of music I wanna hear walking the halls of my university or even when I was in highschool.
L
Lost_Wanderer
Guest
Yet people segregated vegetables from fruits and meat from salts and spices. The reason, obviously because it’ll create one big mess.
Compartmentalizing doesn’t divide. It simply organizes things within reasonable bounds. It helps people identify which is which so that we don’t have chaos.
In fact, despite my compartmentalizing, I listen to a variety of music. I can actually say that rock makes up just half of the music I listen to. There are even pieces of classical music that I like such as The Sorcerer’s Apprentice. Putting them into different categories makes it easier for me to know where to find what I want to listen to in a particular moment. It certainly doesn’t limit my tastes.
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