Did Popes "forbid" women servers at one time?

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ahs

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First of all, this is NOT a debate [not by me anyway]. I am just looking for information.

I know altar girls are expressly allowed when the Bishop permits it, and the particular priest is also for it. I know the Congregation for Divine Worship wrote a letter explicitly stating all this.

But, someone told me that he was told yes, he said she said…] that Pope Galatius and Pope Benedict XIV strictly forbade it.

Anyone know what that might be in reference to, and what they really said…and to whom it was addressed?
 
See Allatae Sunt, encyclical of Benedict XIV, issued 1755. The encyclical, on the observance of the Eastern rites, is addressed “To Missionaries Assigned to the Orient,” and contains the following passage:

Pope Gelasius in his ninth letter (chap. 26) to the bishops of Lucania condemned the evil practice which had been introduced of women serving the priest at the celebration of Mass. Since this abuse had spread to the Greeks, Innocent IV strictly forbade it in his letter to the bishop of Tusculum: “Women should not dare to serve at the altar; they should be altogether refused this ministry.” We too have forbidden this practice in the same words in Our oft-repeated constitution Etsi Pastoralis, sect. 6, no. 21.

Incidentally, the 1917 code of canon law, can. 813, also forbade it, unless no males were available. This was in effect until 1983:

Can. 813. § 1. Sacerdos Missam ne celebret sine ministro qui eidem inserviat et respondeat. § 2. Minister Missae inserviens ne sit mulier, nisi, deficiente viro, iusta de causa, eaque lege ut mulier ex longinquo respondeat nec ullo pacto ad altare accedat.

Be warned, though, you’ve opened a can of worms. 😉
 
Ad_Orientem said:
See Allatae Sunt, encyclical of Benedict XIV, issued 1755. The encyclical, on the observance of the Eastern rites, is addressed “To Missionaries Assigned to the Orient,” and contains the following passage:

Pope Gelasius in his ninth letter (chap. 26) to the bishops of Lucania condemned the evil practice which had been introduced of women serving the priest at the celebration of Mass. Since this abuse had spread to the Greeks, Innocent IV strictly forbade it in his letter to the bishop of Tusculum: “Women should not dare to serve at the altar; they should be altogether refused this ministry.” We too have forbidden this practice in the same words in Our oft-repeated constitution Etsi Pastoralis, sect. 6, no. 21.

Incidentally, the 1917 code of canon law, can. 813, also forbade it, unless no males were available. This was in effect until 1983:

Can. 813. § 1. Sacerdos Missam ne celebret sine ministro qui eidem inserviat et respondeat. § 2. Minister Missae inserviens ne sit mulier, nisi, deficiente viro, iusta de causa, eaque lege ut mulier ex longinquo respondeat nec ullo pacto ad altare accedat.

Be warned, though, you’ve opened a can of worms. 😉
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Oh, wow. I thought it was a bunch of hooey. Thanks so much for the citations.

So, is this a matter of one of those lower-case "t"raditions that can change when a Pope says so? (Or is that the can of worms being cracked further?) :o
 
ahs said:
So, is this a matter of one of those lower-case "t"raditions that can change when a Pope says so? (Or is that the can of worms being cracked further?) :o
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Yes. It is a discipline of the church, and may be changed. Priestly celibacy would fall into this category too. That said, generally, changes like this should not be done without good reason, especially if there is a long precedent.
 
Lay altar servers were traditionally standins for clerics in minor orders. Only men can be ordained clerics.
 
Female altar servers are a very modern innovation, only within the last couple of decades. Before that it was unknown. Not sure you would think that it was “hooey.”
 
Ad_Orientem said:
Incidentally, the 1917 code of canon law, can. 813, also forbade it, unless no males were available. This was in effect until 1983:
Can. 813. § 1. Sacerdos Missam ne celebret sine ministro qui eidem inserviat et respondeat. § 2. Minister Missae inserviens ne sit mulier, nisi, deficiente viro, iusta de causa, eaque lege ut mulier ex longinquo respondeat nec ullo pacto ad altare accedat.
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Just for those that don’t read Latin and want a full understanding of the proscription under the old law, this can be translated as such:

Canon 813
§ 1. A priest should not celebrate Mass without a minister who assists him and responds.
§ 2. The minister serving at Mass should not be a woman unless, in the absence of a man, for a just cause, it is so arranged that the woman respond from afar and by no means approach the altar.

(from Dr Edward Peter’s English translation of the 1917 Pio-Benedictine Code of Canon Law)

1917 CIC 813§1 still exists in the current code under canon 906, but slightly modified. §2 was removed completely.
 
Just to add from a historical perspective, the prohibition also was called out by the Sacred Congregation for Divine Worship in the 1970 Liturgicae Instaurationes which read:7. In conformity with norms traditional in the Church, women (single, married, religious), whether in churches, homes, convents, schools, or institutions for women, are barred from serving the priest at the altar.
Section 7 then went on to list liturgical functions women were allowed to perform (reading the epistles, cantor, announcing the intentions for the general intercessions, etc).
 
Chatter163 said:
Female altar servers are a very modern innovation, only within the last couple of decades. Before that it was unknown. Not sure you would think that it was “hooey.”
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I don’t think female altar servers qualify as a “modern innovation.”

Pope Gelasius was pope from 492-496 - he condemned the practice during his pontificate
Pope Innocent IV was pope from 1243-1254 - he forbade it during his pontificate

You don’t usually condemn or forbid something that has not happened or at least been discussed, so the practice was not unknown in those times.
 
Thank you all very much for the incredibly informative posts. With that, I’m just gonna tip my hat and bookmark this for later reference. I hope I didn’t stir the pot too much. I am finding out through other threads that this is a rather hot topic. :o

In Christ,
Dave
 
Interesting.

My observation is that there are Gospel examples of women serving Jesus. As a matter of fact, I’d be surprised if it were the Twelve who did the cooking, cleaning, serving of meals, etc. when they were together.
 
on_the_hill said:
Interesting.

My observation is that there are Gospel examples of women serving Jesus. As a matter of fact, I’d be surprised if it were the Twelve who did the cooking, cleaning, serving of meals, etc. when they were together.
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True, but that has nothing to do with serving at the altar. We should all strive to serve Christ in our actions and deads. Any restriction on servering at the altar does not mean we are barred from serving Christ.
 
Usige said:
[/INDENT] Just for those that don’t read Latin and want a full understanding of the proscription under the old law, this can be translated as such:

Canon 813
§ 1. A priest should not celebrate Mass without a minister who assists him and responds.
§ 2. The minister serving at Mass should not be a woman unless, in the absence of a man, for a just cause, it is so arranged that the woman respond from afar and by no means approach the altar.

(from Dr Edward Peter’s English translation of the 1917 Pio-Benedictine Code of Canon Law)

1917 CIC 813§1 still exists in the current code under canon 906, but slightly modified. §2 was removed completely.
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My mother went to a girls boarding school in Ireland, run by nuns. Needless to say, altar boys were not feasible for Mass

My mother was one of the servers, in that she and another girl would spend Mass kneeling at the altar rail and providing the Mass responses that the servers would say.

They never entered the sanctuary, nor did they vest in another other than what all the other girls were wearing.

On the plus side, my mother knew all the Mass responses just as well as my dad did 🙂
 
adrift said:
We have both boys and men. One of the men is an installed acolytes and another is enrolled to be.
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The position of altar boy was intended to provide a pathway to the priesthood. [sarc] Now women have succeeded in shutting that off because we have too many priests. [/sarc]
 
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