Did RCIA , Got Baptized and Entered the Church, but still living with boyfriend?

[TrueLight]

I know of a least two women who entered the Church while still living with their boyfriends. One has no kids and is trying to do the brother-sister thing while the other one has kids with the boyfriend and is just “trying”.

How can one enter the church and be baptized while in a state of sin?

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

Apparently the people authorized by the Church to make such judgments discerned that they were ready for baptism.

 

[spiderweb]

I can’t comment on the above situation, but I will say that in general the church needs to “reform” some Catholic colleges, RCIA instructors, Catechism teachers, etc. to ensure that the truths of the Faith are being taught. Not to mention the proper disposition for receiving sacraments, etc. There’s always lots of work to be done not just by religious, but by every lay member of the Church. As members of the Church militant, that is part of our responsibility.

My 2 cents

 

[pianistclare]

People in RCIA state and promise a lot of things. One can’t know the state of their soul, but we don’t hesitate to assume a lot about their lives. In general, that’s between them and their confessor. While it seems really bad at present, they may under the spiritual direction of a Priest and they may very well be trying.
It’s really pointless to try to peer into someone else’s soul. The Lord brought them this far…trust Him for the rest of the journey. Pray for them, for sure.

 

[FreeEver]

I’m a cradle Catholic and have never experienced RICA or for that matter even met a RICA instructor (have resided in several large populated metro areas in the U.S.). However, having read a number of experiences on message boards such as CAF from those who attended RICA, I’ve received the impression (right or wrong) that the vast majority of RICA instructors make every effort to ensure the enrollee stays the course and becomes Catholic.

Doctrines and teachings that the enrollee has difficulty with are passed over with the statement ‘for the present accept/believe the issue in question and after becoming Catholic, sometime later you will fully understand’.

God Bless and Peace to all.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

I’ve received the impression (right or wrong) that the vast majority of RICA instructors make every effort to ensure the enrollee stays the course and becomes Catholic.

As someone who actually has experience as an RCIA director, I disagree.

 

[felsguy]

Interesting that you state "Doctrines and teachings that the enrollee has difficulty with are passed over with the statement ‘for the present accept/believe the issue in question and after becoming Catholic, sometime later you will fully understand’" and yet "have never experienced RICA or for that matter even met a RICA instructor."

Perhaps if you got to know an RCIA instructor or two or spoke with the 95% of RCIA participants (yes, my estimate) who had a positive experience, you might think differently.

“the vast majority of RICA instructors make every effort to ensure the enrollee stays the course and becomes Catholic”

And this is bad because…? I can assure you that every RCIA instructor I have worked with over the past15+ years has most certainly made every effort possible to assist the participants in fulfilling their desire to become Catholic.

 

[SuscipeMeDomine]

I just reread my post #7 and realized that I wasn’t very clear. I’m not disagreeing with the idea that RCIA team members want people to become Catholic. If we didn’t, why would we be involved in RCIA? What I was disagreeing with was the idea that in order to make that happen we’ll ignore doctrine or be less than truthful about what it means to be Catholic.

 

[DakiniArtist]

I can see many sides to this though. When you become Catholic, it’s the beginning of a journey. We’re always growing in our faith. We’re not perfect. We all fall short. I don’t know that any RCIA program could (or should) police these things.

One person could appear just right on the forms, but could be embezzling money, or sleeping with underage clients, or selling drugs. I don’t know…

These folks living in sin may grow in their faith weekly and then get married, or move out. Perhaps not for someone else to say. Perhaps the priest knows the situation better.

I like to give the benefit of the doubt and not worry. Lord knows I don’t want people making assumptions about my life!

 

[DakiniArtist]

 

[thistle]

I know of a least two women who entered the Church while still living with their boyfriends. One has no kids and is trying to do the brother-sister thing while the other one has kids with the boyfriend and is just “trying”.

How can one enter the church and be baptized while in a state of sin?

Actually that is none of your business. I cannot imagine you know the whole story from the side of the people involved or from the Church’s side.
Stop gossiping.

 

[dans0622]

Simply scolding the OP doesn’t really help. Let’s focus on answering the question: “How can one enter the church and be baptized while in a state of sin?”

At the outset, a distinction can be made about being “in a state of sin.” In the words of St. Thomas Aquinas:

A man may be said to be a sinner in two ways. First, on account of the stain and the debt of punishment incurred in the past: and on sinners in this sense the sacrament of Baptism should be conferred, since it is instituted specially for this purpose, that by it the uncleanness of sin may be washed away, according to Ephesians 5:26: “Cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life.”

Secondly, a man may be called a sinner because he wills to sin and purposes to remain in sin: and on sinners in this sense the sacrament of Baptism should not be conferred. First, indeed, because by Baptism men are incorporated in Christ, according to Galatians 3:27: “As many of you as have been baptized in Christ, have put on Christ.” Now so long as a man wills to sin, he cannot be united to Christ, according to 2 Corinthians 6:14: “What participation hath justice with injustice?” Wherefore Augustine says in his book on Penance (Serm. cccli) that “no man who has the use of free-will can begin the new life, except he repent of his former life.” Secondly, because there should be nothing useless in the works of Christ and of the Church. Now that is useless which does not reach the end to which it is ordained; and, on the other hand, no one having the will to sin can, at the same time, be cleansed from sin, which is the purpose of Baptism; for this would be to combine two contradictory things. Thirdly, because there should be no falsehood in the sacramental signs. Now a sign is false if it does not correspond with the thing signified. But the very fact that a man presents himself to be cleansed by Baptism, signifies that he prepares himself for the inward cleansing: while this cannot be the case with one who purposes to remain in sin. Therefore it is manifest that on such a man the sacrament of Baptism is not to be conferred. newadvent.org/summa/4068.htm#article4

Certainly, today as well as throughout Christian history, all adults are to be “adequately instructed…in the duties of a Christian, and tested in the Christian life over the course of the catechumenate. The person must moreover be urged to have sorrow for personal sins” (c. 865.1). Even someone who is in danger of death, who has fewer requirements than otherwise demanded, must “promise to observe the requirements of the Christian religion” (c. 865.2). It goes without saying that living in a “public” manner that is contrary to one of the Commandments outwardly suggests a lack of sorrow for sin and suggests that the person has failed the test in Christian life.

For casual observers, baptizing such people can certainly be scandalous or cause wonderment (rightfully so). Besides, if a person has no will to reform his life yet wants to be baptized, the baptism is useless for his salvation unless and until he, in fact, reforms his life (the baptism is valid and the person is incorporated into the Church, however, even while remaining in sin).

There is the possibility that the persons involved are actually contrite and wish to reform their lives, even while living in a manner suggesting the contrary. In that case, baptism can be licitly conferred. St. Thomas states: “Therefore the sacrament of Baptism is not to be conferred save on those in whom there appears some sign of their interior conversion: just as neither is bodily medicine given to a sick man, unless he show some sign of life” (at above link).

If the women in the OP are trying “the brother and sister thing” then it seems they have a desire to live in accord with the Faith. One can debate the prudence of baptizing those who express a desire to reform their lives yet continue to live in the near occasion of sin. We wouldn’t want such people to be like the man in one of the Lord’s parables: one demon is driven out but goes and finds seven, worse demons and they all go back and take up residence (cf. Mt. 12:45). On the other hand, maybe the grace of the Sacrament will give these women the strength needed to resist those demons and regularize their situation.

Dan

 

[Oneofthewomen]

I can see many sides to this though. When you become Catholic, it’s the beginning of a journey. We’re always growing in our faith. We’re not perfect. We all fall short. I don’t know that any RCIA program could (or should) police these things.

One person could appear just right on the forms, but could be embezzling money, or sleeping with underage clients, or selling drugs. I don’t know…

These folks living in sin may grow in their faith weekly and then get married, or move out. Perhaps not for someone else to say. Perhaps the priest knows the situation better.

I like to give the benefit of the doubt and not worry. Lord knows I don’t want people making assumptions about my life!

I agree with this 100%!! About the only thing I can add is this, a little tidbit that many (myself included, sometimes )forget-
The Church is a hospital for sinners, not a museum for Saints.

 

[Big_Feet]

Pray for more, better, well formed priests for our Church who can better educate and discern with the faithful in an appropriate matter.

That being said, I agree with the sentiments of what other posters have said: Mind your own business! - the only soul you can examine is your own. Fraternal correction is appropriate, but as to wether or not they are in a state of mortal sin is not for you to decide. It is well above your ‘pay grade’

 

[Jon_S_1]

:clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping::clapping:

 

[Jon_S_1]

Simply scolding the OP doesn’t really help. Let’s focus on answering the question: “How can one enter the church and be baptized while in a state of sin?”

At the outset, a distinction can be made about being “in a state of sin.” In the words of St. Thomas Aquinas:

Certainly, today as well as throughout Christian history, all adults are to be “adequately instructed…in the duties of a Christian, and tested in the Christian life over the course of the catechumenate. The person must moreover be urged to have sorrow for personal sins” (c. 865.1). Even someone who is in danger of death, who has fewer requirements than otherwise demanded, must “promise to observe the requirements of the Christian religion” (c. 865.2). It goes without saying that living in a “public” manner that is contrary to one of the Commandments outwardly suggests a lack of sorrow for sin and suggests that the person has failed the test in Christian life.

For casual observers, baptizing such people can certainly be scandalous or cause wonderment (rightfully so). Besides, if a person has no will to reform his life yet wants to be baptized, the baptism is useless for his salvation unless and until he, in fact, reforms his life (the baptism is valid and the person is incorporated into the Church, however, even while remaining in sin).

There is the possibility that the persons involved are actually contrite and wish to reform their lives, even while living in a manner suggesting the contrary. In that case, baptism can be licitly conferred. St. Thomas states: “Therefore the sacrament of Baptism is not to be conferred save on those in whom there appears some sign of their interior conversion: just as neither is bodily medicine given to a sick man, unless he show some sign of life” (at above link).

If the women in the OP are trying “the brother and sister thing” then it seems they have a desire to live in accord with the Faith. One can debate the prudence of baptizing those who express a desire to reform their lives yet continue to live in the near occasion of sin. We wouldn’t want such people to be like the man in one of the Lord’s parables: one demon is driven out but goes and finds seven, worse demons and they all go back and take up residence (cf. Mt. 12:45). On the other hand, maybe the grace of the Sacrament will give these women the strength needed to resist those demons and regularize their situation.

Dan

The point is the OP has absolutely no way of knowing if they are in sin…The OP should worry about their own sins and not other people.

 

[dans0622]

The point is the OP has absolutely no way of knowing if they are in sin…The OP should worry about their own sins and not other people.

Hello,

If that is your point, great.

My point was to not focus on a perceived/possible fault on the part of the OP (not sure how anyone here really knows what she knows or doesn’t know…) and try to answer the eminently sensible and pertinent question.

Dan

 

[Tigg]

Actually that is none of your business. I cannot imagine you know the whole story from the side of the people involved or from the Church’s side.
Stop gossiping.

I find it incredulous that while we may not “gossip” or judge the state of anyone’s soul, the overlying theme of posts seems to be condemnation for the OP instead of concern for the level of truth being taught in these programs and how it impacts participants. When I was involved with RCIA it was not just an instruction program, but a spiritual journey of love and authentic conversion. This just reinforces my astonishment at the deficiency of many RCIA courses and the manner in which they are run. In a previous parish, our pastor himself recognized this and did not delegate such importance to anyone. As busy as he was, he gave the initial classes to evangelize and light the fire (in a parish of 5,000 registered families.) That is how significant he personally believed RCIA to be.

On a side note, a recent convert and friend was outside a neighboring parish waiting for daily Mass to start and drinking his coffee. Since this particular week-day Mass only runs about 20 minutes, I couldn’t help but wonder if he was aware of the very fundamental rule of fast concerning the Eucharist. Am I gossiping too, or showing a genuine concern for the state of catechesis in the church today?

 

[Electricaleng]

to the op

None of your business. He who is without sin cast the first stone. It is people like you that pushed us away from catholicism. Pathetic and judgemental

 

[Oneofthewomen]

I think today’s homily from Pope Francis is the only answer that this thread needs.

You can find it here.

Here is a taste.

“A man or a woman, who feel sick in their soul, sad, who have made many mistakes in life, at a certain moment feel the waters move, there is the Holy Spirit who moves something, or they hear a word. They take courage and go forward,” he said.

“And how many times today in Christian communities, do they find the door shut: ‘But you can’t, no, you cannot enter. You have a mistake and you can’t enter. If you want to come, go to the Sunday Mass, but stay there, you can’t do anything else.’ And that which the Holy Spirit does in the person is destroyed by Christians with the psychology of the doctors of the law.”

The Holy Father went on to say that he is saddened by this attitude, stressing that the Church is the “house of Jesus” and Jesus not only receives those who enter, but “goes out searching for them.”