Did Rome leave Orthodox

[agiosotheos]

Yet, the Church of Jesus Christ is inclusive of all churches even when the bishops do not all agree on the definition of Orthodoxy.

:ehh:

 

[agiosotheos]

The Bishop of Rome does hold the Orthodox faith,

We disagree.

but these Churches are in schism.

We also disagree about this.

We believe that Jesus gave authority only to Peter to govern the Church,

And this.

 

[Vico]

:ehh:

You resonded “Ehh” to my statement “Yet, the Church of Jesus Christ is inclusive of all churches even when the bishops do not all agree on the definition of Orthodoxy.”

The Church is based upon apostolic procession and the sacraments. Let us just consider the period prior to 1054 schism between Rome and Constantinople when both were Orthodox: as there have been disagreements over what constitutes Orthodoxy in those 1054 years, it cannot be said that all Apostolic Churches had the same teachings, yet, those Apostolic Churches were still considered to be the Church of Jesus Christ (the One True Faith).

 

[agiosotheos]

You resonded “Ehh” to my statement “Yet, the Church of Jesus Christ is inclusive of all churches even when the bishops do not all agree on the definition of Orthodoxy.”

The Church is based upon apostolic procession and the sacraments. Let us just consider the period prior to 1054 schism between Rome and Constantinople when both were Orthodox: as there have been disagreements over what constitutes Orthodoxy in those 1054 years, it cannot be said that all Apostolic Churches had the same teachings, yet, those Apostolic Churches were still considered to be the Church of Jesus Christ (the One True Faith).

I feel as if you are talking to me like I’m Eastern Orthodox. I have a history of being an initiated member of the EOC, but I have shifted to being primarily Oriental Orthodox in mindset and have (to some degree) been pursuing membership in the OOC. As such, “1054” doesn’t mean the same thing to me; I identify 451 as the point of the breach of the unity of Christendom. After that point I question the orthodoxy of both Rome and Constantinople, Alexandria being left as the primary orthodox See.

The Church is based upon apostolic succession and the Sacred Mysteries. It is also based off of unity in matters of faith. Also, what “Apostolic Succession” and “Sacraments” mean is somewhat ambiguous. Unlike the RCC, the EOC and OOC have a tradition of being skeptical of the Sacraments, and thus Apostolic Succession, of those who do not hold the orthodox faith. The phrase “the Apostolic Churches” does not carry the same weight with us.

Anyway, what disagreements about the nature of Orthodoxy in the first 1054 years of Christendom did you have in mind?

 

[Javl]

We disagree.

We also disagree about this.

And this.

The answer then is the understanding ( mis-interpreting ) of Jesus’ words to Peter. The
Roman Church has been Faithful to His words and teachings for these past 2000 years.
Many have tried to prove otherwise and have failed. I have investigated all and find ( to
my understanding ) that the Church of Rome is the One True Church founded by Jesus.
Therefore I am a Roman Catholic ( Roman, only because the seat of governance is in Rome ).

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

We disagree.

We also disagree about this.

And this.

It is your right to disagree. We both agree to disagree. Therefore, this is where useful dialog comes in to play so that we can learn the other’s reason for dis-agreement. Can
we proceede? God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Vico]

agiosotheos, you said: “I feel as if you are talking to me like I’m Eastern Orthodox. …
Anyway, what disagreements about the nature of Orthodoxy in the first 1054 years of Christendom did you have in mind?”

Sorry, I was trying to stay on the thread topic which, in the first post, refers to 1054, which means Rome and Constantinople.

The disagreements were on those topics for which the ecumenical (and also local) councils were held. (Of course some of these are shared by the Coptic Church). Those below are from the first ecumenical through the 1054 date:

Nicea 1 325 Definined the divinity of the Son of God
Constantinople I 381 Definined the divinity of the Holy Spirit
Ephesus 431 Defined Christ as the Incarnate Word of God and Mary as Theotokos
Chalcedon 451 Defined Christ as Perfect God and Perfect Man in One Person
Constantinople II 553 Reiterated the Doctrines of the Trinity and of Christ
Constantinople III 680 Asserted humanit of Jesus having human will and action
Quinisext Council (Trullo) 692 Addressed matters of discipline and established the Pentarchy.
Nicea II 787 Asserted icons as true expressions of the Christian Faith
Council of Constantinople 870 Deposed Patriarch Photios I of Constantinople
Council of Constantinople 880 Restored Photius to the See of Constantinople and condemned the double-procession doctrine concerning the Holy Spirit.
Also, note that in the post I made on the Ecumenical Partriarch before I stated that H.H. Partriarch Bartholemew I considered The Pope to be the first in primacy of honor (not authority).

 

[Hesychios]

Rome held the position of highest honor in the ancient Church. Let her return to her Apostolic roots and she will have that position again.

I am optimistic that this is possible, even likely.

I think that a probationary period would be justified, but since he would only be functioning if specifically called upon there would be a ‘wait and see’ period already built into the process.

It could be worked out.

 

[Javl]

**josephdaniel29:**Rome held the position of highest honor in the ancient Church. Let her return to her Apostolic roots and she will have that position again.

Rome never left or lost her Apostolic roots. The RCC has followed and kept the teachings
and Holy Traditions of Jesus and the Apostles for these 2000 years. It cannot be proven
otherwise.

I am optimistic that this is possible, even likely.

I think that a probationary period would be justified, but since he would only be functioning if specifically called upon there would be a ‘wait and see’ period already built into the process.

It could be worked out.

Why would a probationary period be required?

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Vico]

That Rome could be primus again would first require the resolution of the issue of primus within the Orthodox Church. All Orthodox have agreed to ecumenical dialog between Catholics and Orthodox. Since January 2009 H.H. Patriarch Kiril is Patriarch of Moscow. There has been disagreement over jurisdiction of the Orthodox Church of Estonia between Moscow and Constantinople.

The Orthodox and the Catholic Church agree not to take uniatism as a model towards unity and not to use it as a model of proselytism, which can be read here:

asianews.it/index.php?l=en&art=16625&size=A

This thread is about schism of 1054 but the current events show the issues involved with resolution of schism also indicate the general causes.

Metropolitan Zizoulas noted that the definition of a heretic must consider rejection of the principles endorsed by ecumenical synods. So I think Rome being considered non-heretical by Orthodox will depend upon agreement with the first seven ecumenical councils, and no “required belief” additions.

The Orthodox Patriarchal Encyclical of 1895 highlighted these issues:

1. the Creed without the addition (of the filioque)
2. use of unleavened bread
3. doctrine of a purgatorial fire
4. sprinkling instead of baptism
5. the immaculate conception of the ever-Virgin
6. the temporal power, or the infallibility and absolutism of the Bishop of Rome

Of course this list does not include the 1950 Assumption dogma so I suspect that would also be added today.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Hi everyone.

this is off topic. i just want to send my sympathies to the Orthodox community. two days ago here in Tampa bay area an Orthodox priest from Greece was attacked by an ex marine. the marine is telling a horrible story about the priest and i dont believe this marine is telling the truth and i side with the priest. just want let you all know what is happening down here in florida. blessings.

 

[Harpazo]

Hi everyone.

this is off topic. i just want to send my sympathies to the Orthodox community. two days ago here in Tampa bay area an Orthodox priest from Greece was attacked by an ex marine. the marine is telling a horrible story about the priest and i dont believe this marine is telling the truth and i side with the priest. just want let you all know what is happening down here in florida. blessings.

I heard about that. The marine thought he was a terrorist and yelling in Arabic, but Greeks don’t speak Arabic. Because most Orthodox priests have long beards and long hair, wear black robes and sometime wear a little black hat, many Orthodox bishops tell their priests to wear a pectoral cross so that they won’t be confused for Muslims.

In Christ,
Andrew

 

[wisdomseeker]

I heard about that. The marine thought he was a terrorist and yelling in Arabic, but Greeks don’t speak Arabic. Because most Orthodox priests have long beards and long hair, wear black robes and sometime wear a little black hat, many Orthodox bishops tell their priests to wear a pectoral cross so that they won’t be confused for Muslims.

In Christ,
Andrew

yes, but this is no longer the story. now the marine is saying that the priest was making sexual advances towards him and he had to defend himself. this is the story now.
very sad indeed.

 

[Javl]

yes, but this is no longer the story. now the marine is saying that the priest was making sexual advances towards him and he had to defend himself. this is the story now.
very sad indeed.

Attacking a priest, Catholic or Ortodox is a mortal sin. I wonder if the marine knows about this? Also, since he’s changed his story, he’s a candidate for Psychiatric help.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[wisdomseeker]

Attacking a priest, Catholic or Ortodox is a mortal sin. I wonder if the marine knows about this? Also, since he’s changed his story, he’s a candidate for Psychiatric help.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

they are going to evaluate his motives, i am sure. the whole Orthodox community down here is very upset with the situation. he was attacked with a tire bar steel.

 

[Javl]

they are going to evaluate his motives, i am sure. the whole Orthodox community down here is very upset with the situation. he was attacked with a tire bar steel.

With a steel tire bar? And they have to evaluate his motives? I’ll bet that the ACLU will become involved and say that the priest was attacking the marine with prayers!

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[wisdomseeker]

With a steel tire bar? And they have to evaluate his motives? I’ll bet that the ACLU will become involved and say that the priest was attacking the marine with prayers!

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

probably. i wouldnt doubt it.

 

[Vico]

Did Rome leave the Orthodox around 1054, completely out by 1400?

It just occured to me today that “out by 1400” could refer to the Council of Florence, during which the agreement with Rome was signed in 1439 * but opposed by Mark of Ephesus, but which was eventually withdrawn 31 years later in 1470. It is believed that it was signed to get help from the West to save Constantinople, but Constantinople fell to the Ottoman Empire shortly after. The agreement was in effect for 31 years, but it also caused a schism between Moscow and Constantinople as Moscow decided to choose their own Metropolitan (they did not want Metropolitan Isidore) that did not favor union with Rome.

Mark of Ephesus is highly praised because he did not compromise. He said it was heresy to accept the Filioque clause in the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed and to accept the Patriarch of Rome as having universal jurisdiction over the Church.

• I read once that it was thought that the agreement was a forgery.

 

[Joseph651]

Thank You All;
for the information on the question. I have enjoyed reading all your responses and have a better understanding of what happened over a period of time, to cause such a tragedy of the Church to break apart. I have the belief that the Pope is trying to bring the church back as the One True Church and miracles are happening as we speak. In my perspective, the problems we are having around the world is that we do-not have unity, we do-not believe in the same bible, we think we are greater then God and use our modern day words to change the meanings to Our ways of thinking. The Pope is on a mission to bring back the true church, what a glorious legacy he will leave for the next pope to take up and work on, there is God working on the highest level.

We all have to follow Jesus, forgive those who have trespassed against us and ask of our forgiveness and become One True Church again.

I am proud of the Catholic faith I profess, thanks to the Pope to open the door for us Anglicans to be under the See of Peter again. We now have a leader who will Shepard us in the CATHOLIC belief. I pray, that we all will come together again and be Brothers and Sisters in Christ under the See of Peter.

Joseph