Did satan tempt Adam and Eve?

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Joe_5859 said:
Even if we take the story as allegory, it still illustrates some primeval event about which (as the Catechism states): “Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God’s command. This is what man’s first sin consisted of.”

That is what we must believe. Whether we believe that their names were literally Adam and Eve or that the devil literally appeared in the form of a snake encouraging them to eat a literal piece of fruit from a literal tree is open to debate. What is not open for debate is that our first parents were tempted by the devil and committed the first sin (whatever it may have been) thereby impugning human nature with Original Sin.
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that’s it in a nutshell.
 
Kelt said:
Exactly, Adam and Eve represent the human condition. An allegory is a story made up to illustrate a phenomenon; a way to put something in a nutshell. The ancients were well versed in their use.
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There were not any other humans in addition to Adam and Eve in the Garden. Therefore, I wonder what human condition, besides their own, could Adam and Eve possibly know and represent. :confused:
 
Humana Generis says that all humans come from Adam and Eve. The Church condemnations of slavery said all races are human
 
grannymh said:
There were not any other humans in addition to Adam and Eve in the Garden. Therefore, I wonder what human condition, besides their own, could Adam and Eve possibly know and represent. :confused:
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An allegory is a story, a myth if you like. This one is very old, one of several I think, which simplifies the human condition - that of being aware of the difference between right and wrong, our awareness of our own mortality, our curiosity as to how we got here etc etc. Bringing it down to this scenario sort of puts it in a nutshell.
To believe that we all came from one set of parents after all that we know about genetics etc…well, first you’d have incest and then you’d have a very inbred group of individuals, getting weaker not stronger. I don’t know how this is got around by theologians who have this belief, but Adam and Eve could not have been human as we are…and therefore why should their ‘failures’ be seen to affect modern humans?
 
Kelt said:
An allegory is a story, a myth if you like. This one is very old, one of several I think, which simplifies the human condition - that of being aware of the difference between right and wrong, our awareness of our own mortality, our curiosity as to how we got here etc etc. Bringing it down to this scenario sort of puts it in a nutshell.
To believe that we all came from one set of parents after all that we know about genetics etc…well, first you’d have incest and then you’d have a very inbred group of individuals, getting weaker not stronger. I don’t know how this is got around by theologians who have this belief, but Adam and Eve could not have been human as we are…and therefore why should their ‘failures’ be seen to affect modern humans?
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What you are presenting is a summary of various Christian beliefs. Thank you.
This is a link to the Catholic position regarding the Catholic doctrines regarding human origin as being one set of fully complete human parents.

hprweb.com/2014/07/time-to-abandon-the-genesis-story/
 
BornInMarch said:
Was the serpent who tempted Eve just a regular serpent, or was it Satan posing as a serpent?
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The serpent has traditionally been identified as Satan, because of this:

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
 
And Mary (as the perfect Eve) crushed the head of the serpent.
 
CHRISTINE77 said:
My what an open mind you have. I doubt you have even read it. Of course he doesn’t speak for the church. But he does have some very sound theology. He was a very intelligent and religious man who knew the Church Fathers’ works as well as the Bible thoroughly. You can learn things from many sources, not just the Catholic Catechism.
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He did not speak for the Church and nor was he a theologian. Simply a poet.

For your information I have read both Paradise Lost and Paradise Regained. I collect and read antique books. My edition is 1840 which of course is getting on for 200 years after Milton wrote these books.
 
grannymh said:
What you are presenting is a summary of various Christian beliefs. Thank you.
This is a link to the Catholic position regarding the Catholic doctrines regarding human origin as being one set of fully complete human parents.

hprweb.com/2014/07/time-to-abandon-the-genesis-story/
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Ah, I’m sorry, I wasn’t aware that you were OBLIGED to believe this. So the discussion is over for me isn’t it?!
Quite how one can BELIEVE something because one is TOLD to, I really don’t understand, and it opens up a whole lot more questions for me. This is how the church has kept its power for so long and is to me, a sinister and dangerous side to it. Maybe it’s the subject of another thread so that I ca try to understand this…I admit that, in this day and age, it totally baffles me how people can be made to believe black is white if necessary…
 
Kelt said:
Quite how one can BELIEVE something because one is TOLD to
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There is a flip side to this, and it operates in far more sinister ways, BELIEVE what you are TOLD, it is called evolution. Who’s in power?
 
Kelt said:
Ah, I’m sorry, I wasn’t aware that you were OBLIGED to believe this. So the discussion is over for me isn’t it?!
Quite how one can BELIEVE something because one is TOLD to, I really don’t understand, and it opens up a whole lot more questions for me. This is how the church has kept its power for so long and is to me, a sinister and dangerous side to it. Maybe it’s the subject of another thread so that I ca try to understand this…I admit that, in this day and age, it totally baffles me how people can be made to believe black is white if necessary…
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Kelt,

It is good for you to ask questions, that is how we get a better grasp on what the Lord is saying to us.

The Church has told us many good things for our benefit. Prayers are needed to keep up with all the new things being discovered (science) and how it applies to teaching and our salvation.

The hierarchy of the Church, made up of flawed individuals like all of us are, will not be trumped by the evil one. Our Lord Jesus Christ taught us that the Church will not prevail against her enemies. When it comes to faith and morals She (the Church) teaches us the correct way…not as a tyrant, but as a servant.

We all need to pray for wisdom and better understanding.

God bless you,

Dorothy
 
Kelt said:
Ah, I’m sorry, I wasn’t aware that you were OBLIGED to believe this. So the discussion is over for me isn’t it?!
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Not necessarily. One of the many reasons that Catholics believe in the reality of Adam and Original Sin is that the proper understanding of that is directly related to the Divinity of Jesus Christ. Sad to say, I am now finding that some Catholics do not understand all that is involved with Adam and Original Sin.
Quite how one can BELIEVE something because one is TOLD to, I really don’t understand, and it opens up a whole lot more questions for me.
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You are correct in that “belief” does open more questions. For me, I start with my personal belief in the existence of God. Once that is established as a true axiom, I can understand and follow subsequent Catholic teachings.
This is how the church has kept its power for so long and is to me, a sinister and dangerous side to it. Maybe it’s the subject of another thread so that I ca try to understand this…I admit that, in this day and age, it totally baffles me how people can be made to believe black is white if necessary…
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I do not find that the Catholic Church makes people believe that black is white if necessary. Also, the Catholic Church has the power to lead people to joy eternal in the presence of God in heaven. I do not find that power sinister.

You are right. The value of the Catholic Church (based on Sacred Scripture) in our century needs its own thread.
 
Joe_5859 said:
Even if we take the story as allegory, it still illustrates some primeval event about which (as the Catechism states): “Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God’s command. This is what man’s first sin consisted of.”

That is what we must believe. Whether we believe that their names were literally Adam and Eve or that the devil literally appeared in the form of a snake encouraging them to eat a literal piece of fruit from a literal tree is open to debate. What is not open for debate is that our first parents were tempted by the devil and committed the first sin (whatever it may have been) thereby impugning human nature with Original Sin.
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Why is this not open for debate?
 
Kelt said:
Ah, I’m sorry, I wasn’t aware that you were OBLIGED to believe this. So the discussion is over for me isn’t it?!
Quite how one can BELIEVE something because one is TOLD to, I really don’t understand, and it opens up a whole lot more questions for me. This is how the church has kept its power for so long and is to me, a sinister and dangerous side to it. Maybe it’s the subject of another thread so that I ca try to understand this…I admit that, in this day and age, it totally baffles me how people can be made to believe black is white if necessary…
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It’s sometimes called the “senus fidelium”, sense of the faithful. Faith is a gift; we cannot believe simply because we’re told. We begin to recognize our faith, which comes as a result of hearing, as a response to grace. We simply begin to agree with the truths proposed to us by the church. These truths are not in conflict with reason, simply beyond the power of reason alone to completely ascertain and embrace.
 
fhansen said:
It’s sometimes called the “senus fidelium”, sense of the faithful. Faith is a gift; we cannot believe simply because we’re told. We begin to recognize our faith, which comes as a result of hearing, as a response to grace. We simply begin to agree with the truths proposed to us by the church. These truths are not in conflict with reason, simply beyond the power of reason alone to completely ascertain and embrace.
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Very true. Amen.
 
thistle said:
He did not speak for the Church and nor was he a theologian. Simply a poet.

For your information I have read both Paradise Lost and Paradise Regained. I collect and read antique books. My edition is 1840 which of course is getting on for 200 years after Milton wrote these books.
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So you think his books are totally useless for giving one an understanding of Satan and Jesus Christ? I know he doesn’t speak for the Church, but I think he gave great thought to the story of the Fall of man, and the corresponding redemption of mankind through our Lord.

(By the way, that’s really cool that you own those old editions. I definitely needed notes to read these two books. His language is really difficult to plow through.)
 
Dorothy said:
The fall of the angels took place before the fall of man. Those who rebelled are allowed to tempt us, but they are on a leash, so to speak. When we resist temptation from them we grow in grace.

We are in battle with “the world, the flesh, and the devil”. And thanks be to the Lord, we have prayer and the Sacraments to grow and mature spiritually.
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We are in a battle between the spirit and flesh, is what we have been told, yet our body and soul are united and are one.
 
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