Did St. Aquinas believe in indirect realism?

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Or am I reading too much into this quote:

“All the efforts of the human mind cannot exhaust the essence of a single fly.”

Implying that we do not directly know what a fly is wholly but only know what it is by perceptual functions of the sensory organs and the intellect developing an incomplete concept of it. Or did I interpret this wrong?

On the side,
  1. What is the Church’s position on direct realism vs. indirect realism?
  2. What’s everyone thought on the subject of direct/indirect realism?
 
Are you saying Aquinas wasn’t a Naïve Realist?

Smart guy.
 
Or am I reading too much into this quote:

“All the efforts of the human mind cannot exhaust the essence of a single fly.”

Implying that we do not directly know what a fly is wholly but only know what it is by perceptual functions of the sensory organs and the intellect developing an incomplete concept of it. Or did I interpret this wrong?

On the side,
  1. What is the Church’s position on direct realism vs. indirect realism?
  2. What’s everyone thought on the subject of direct/indirect realism?
I am not dealing on you examples and will not enter in the philosophical wording. I sincerely do not know what the position of the Church is on the Subject. Be it in the Middle Ages, somebody could get killed for taking one of the other position. Nowadays…

There was and elephant and there were 5 blind people who were asked to define the elephant. Each one touched a different par of the elephant and here are the definitions:
  • it is a moving hose that sometimes throw water
  • it is like a snake
  • it is like a big whale
  • it is likt the trunk of a tree
  • it is like a firm and solid tree
all were right, all were wrong.

Now you could make the experience with a non-blind person and with God.
 
You interpreted it wrong, but your conclusion is correct.

Aquinas, following Aristotle, believed that our internal ideas of things are abstracted from the sensory data we perceive. It is the rational soul that translates sense into concept.

The quote you cite, however, is pointing out the fact that our minds, not having the full nature of a fly, can’t truly comprehend what it means to be a fly. We can know a lot ABOUT the fly, but the very being of fly is beyond our natural grasp.

Peace and God bless!
 
You interpreted it wrong, but your conclusion is correct.

Aquinas, following Aristotle, believed that our internal ideas of things are abstracted from the sensory data we perceive. It is the rational soul that translates sense into concept.

The quote you cite, however, is pointing out the fact that our minds, not having the full nature of a fly, can’t truly comprehend what it means to be a fly. We can know a lot ABOUT the fly, but the very being of fly is beyond our natural grasp.

Peace and God bless!
Interesting, thank you Ghosty.

Would you say it is due to our incomplete nature from creation (not created in beatitudes) or that original sin veils us to know things directly?
 
Interesting, thank you Ghosty.

Would you say it is due to our incomplete nature from creation (not created in beatitudes) or that original sin veils us to know things directly?
It has nothing to do with being incomplete in any way. We are designed in such a way that our souls come to knowledge through the senses. Analogically the eyes really are the windows of the soul, not for looking in but rather for looking out.

The human soul without a body is naturally incapable of learning or experiencing anything, though of course God could impart knowledge to it directly. Fundamentally, however, our souls were designed to operate with a body; a soul on its own is not human, any more than a corpse on its own is.

Peace and God bless!
 
Thomas is a moderate realist regarding universals: they are extra-mental objects of thought but they have no being in themselves apart from their instantiations or conceptualizations. I’ve seen a strong case made that he is a direct realist concerning concrete objects.
 
It has nothing to do with being incomplete in any way. We are designed in such a way that our souls come to knowledge through the senses. Analogically the eyes really are the windows of the soul, not for looking in but rather for looking out.

The human soul without a body is naturally incapable of learning or experiencing anything, though of course God could impart knowledge to it directly. Fundamentally, however, our souls were designed to operate with a body; a soul on its own is not human, any more than a corpse on its own is.

Peace and God bless!
What’s the relation between consciousness and soul?
 
I’ve done a bit more reading on the subject (I had never heard of direct vs. indirect realism) and it seems that Aquinas’ position would fall into direct realism. I was assuming that the position that we abstract from an internal “common sense” would be indirect, but according to the definitions this would still be direct.

So Aquinas was definitely a direct realist, from what I can tell, but again this quote of his doesn’t really apply to the question.
**
Jaaanosik**: What do you mean by consciousness? It can mean a lot of different things to different people; in some senses animals can be said to be conscious, but they don’t have a rational soul that is capable of knowing concepts.

Peace and God bless!
 
I’ve done a bit more reading on the subject (I had never heard of direct vs. indirect realism) and it seems that Aquinas’ position would fall into direct realism. I was assuming that the position that we abstract from an internal “common sense” would be indirect, but according to the definitions this would still be direct.
I was going to turn this into a question whether or not we can know a thing directly and fully. But upon futher reading this subject in the Summa, Part 1 Q. 94, it seems that St. Aquinas did believe that our knowledge, as far as knowing a thing, was no different that of Adam who knew “all those things for which man has a natural aptitude.”
 
I was going to turn this into a question whether or not we can know a thing directly and fully. But upon futher reading this subject in the Summa, Part 1 Q. 94, it seems that St. Aquinas did believe that our knowledge, as far as knowing a thing, was no different that of Adam who knew “all those things for which man has a natural aptitude.”
Just out of curiosity ( I am a nil in St. Thomas and I should not be !!!) what was for ST “to know”?
 
I was going to turn this into a question whether or not we can know a thing directly and fully. But upon futher reading this subject in the Summa, Part 1 Q. 94, it seems that St. Aquinas did believe that our knowledge, as far as knowing a thing, was no different that of Adam who knew “all those things for which man has a natural aptitude.”
Precisely, and this is why I say that the limits to our understanding aren’t necessarily the result of the fall or some damage to our nature, though some of them certainly are. Our natural aptitude has limits precisely because we are a created nature with limited being; even angels are limited in this sense, though not in the same ways. Only God can lift us up above our nature to the dizzying heights of comprehending the nature of a fly. 😛

Peace and God bless!
 
Just out of curiosity ( I am a nil in St. Thomas and I should not be !!!) what was for ST “to know”?
Had to do some digging to actually answer this, and at the same time gave further proves that he was a direct realist.

Thomistic epistemology: Concerning corporeal objects, “to know” is gained by way of sensation and following rationality. Understanding hylomorphism, what is sensed as truth in matter is truth in form.

Didn’t read anything according to degrees of knowing a thing, but I’m guessing it naturally follows that what is sensed materially and rationalized is as far the human mind can understand that thing without the assistance of God.

It is a contrasting view to St. Augustine, who believed knowledge is gained through solely by the mind and not the senses. He was a major Platonist, while Aquinas was a moderate Platonist at best. Now the senses cannot be applied to God, which is why metaphysics is practiced but I think both agreed that in this regard, the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit is required. But St. Augustine advocated the seven gifts are required to know all things corporeally and incorporeally.
 
I’ve done a bit more reading on the subject (I had never heard of direct vs. indirect realism) and it seems that Aquinas’ position would fall into direct realism. I was assuming that the position that we abstract from an internal “common sense” would be indirect, but according to the definitions this would still be direct.

So Aquinas was definitely a direct realist, from what I can tell, but again this quote of his doesn’t really apply to the question.
**
Jaaanosik**: What do you mean by consciousness? It can mean a lot of different things to different people; in some senses animals can be said to be conscious, but they don’t have a rational soul that is capable of knowing concepts.

Peace and God bless!
Having my own understanding of consciousness, conscience and soul I am trying to find out what other people think.
You saying: “We are designed in such a way that our souls come to knowledge through the senses.” caught my interest.

A soul formed through the senses and its relation to consciousness and conscience.
How it works if you don’t mind.
Thanks,
Jano
 
Having my own understanding of consciousness, conscience and soul I am trying to find out what other people think.
You saying: “We are designed in such a way that our souls come to knowledge through the senses.” caught my interest.

A soul formed through the senses and its relation to consciousness and conscience.
How it works if you don’t mind.
Thanks,
Jano
Well the rational soul is fundamentally different from the material souls of plants and animals. The rational soul is subsistant, which simply means that it exists in and of itself, while the souls of animals are not subsistant and do not survive apart from the body. That being said this doesn’t mean that the rational soul is independent of the body, it just means that its existence does require the body. The rational soul still requires the senses to feed it information, and from this information ideas are formed.

These ideas are not mere impressions of outside objects but are actually the very forms of these outside objects. For example the senses receive the impression of the roundness of a ball, and our mind (an aspect of the soul, not to be confused with the mere operations of the physical brain) takes from this impression and has the idea of “ball”. We can now apply this idea to other things, whether internally through imagination (which is a form of internal sensation created by the mind), to create objects, to express the definition of ball, and most remarkably through metaphor. We can take the idea of “time”, which is nothing but a series of events and change, and combine it with the idea of “circle” create a whole new idea of a time-loop. We never experience a time-loop, and nothing we know of “circle” properly applies to the idea of a time-loop, and yet we have this new idea none the less.

Consciousness then can be defined either as the experience of things, or the idea of things. If it is the experience of things then animals are conscious, but if it is the idea of self, the ability to abstract the idea of self from the experience of self, then animals are not conscious. I usually use conscious to mean the experience of things (synonymous with sentience), and rationality to mean our ability to abstract ideas, including an idea and concept of self beyond the mere experience of self.

Peace and God bless!
 
Had to do some digging to actually answer this, and at the same time gave further proves that he was a direct realist.

Thomistic epistemology: Concerning corporeal objects, “to know” is gained by way of sensation and following rationality. Understanding hylomorphism, what is sensed as truth in matter is truth in form.

Didn’t read anything according to degrees of knowing a thing, but I’m guessing it naturally follows that what is sensed materially and rationalized is as far the human mind can understand that thing without the assistance of God.

It is a contrasting view to St. Augustine, who believed knowledge is gained through solely by the mind and not the senses. He was a major Platonist, while Aquinas was a moderate Platonist at best. Now the senses cannot be applied to God, which is why metaphysics is practiced but I think both agreed that in this regard, the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit is required. But St. Augustine advocated the seven gifts are required to know all things corporeally and incorporeally.
thanks for the patience…
 
Well the rational soul is fundamentally different from the material souls of plants and animals. The rational soul is subsistant, which simply means that it exists in and of itself, while the souls of animals are not subsistant and do not survive apart from the body. That being said this doesn’t mean that the rational soul is independent of the body, it just means that its existence does require the body. The rational soul still requires the senses to feed it information, and from this information ideas are formed.

These ideas are not mere impressions of outside objects but are actually the very forms of these outside objects. For example the senses receive the impression of the roundness of a ball, and our mind (an aspect of the soul, not to be confused with the mere operations of the physical brain) takes from this impression and has the idea of “ball”. We can now apply this idea to other things, whether internally through imagination (which is a form of internal sensation created by the mind), to create objects, to express the definition of ball, and most remarkably through metaphor. We can take the idea of “time”, which is nothing but a series of events and change, and combine it with the idea of “circle” create a whole new idea of a time-loop. We never experience a time-loop, and nothing we know of “circle” properly applies to the idea of a time-loop, and yet we have this new idea none the less.

Consciousness then can be defined either as the experience of things, or the idea of things. If it is the experience of things then animals are conscious, but if it is the idea of self, the ability to abstract the idea of self from the experience of self, then animals are not conscious. I usually use conscious to mean the experience of things (synonymous with sentience), and rationality to mean our ability to abstract ideas, including an idea and concept of self beyond the mere experience of self.

Peace and God bless!
Soul has some kind of spiritual dimensions. How are they linked to our physical brain, the senses?
Thanks,
Jano
 
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