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Big_Dummy
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Did the Apostles consider their own writings to be scripture? Did anyone else?
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Publisher
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Since Paul is the only one we know for sure wrote any of what became the New Testament…I seriouosly doubt it…he wrote letters to those churches he established…doubt he ever thought of them being bound in a book and called “scripture”.
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NewsTheMan
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No. How could they? They wrote for a specific group/person/community in the way of letter or biography of some kind. It would be like me writing you a letter now. It just so happens that what is in scripture now are those letters etc that were divinely inspired and recognized as such.
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NewsTheMan
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Not true. We also know Matthew wrote Matthew, Mark wrote Mark, Luke wrote Luke, etc etc etc. These aren’t arbitrary names given for the fun of it.
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Zenas
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I rather think they did. John practically rips off the first chapter of Genesis at the beginning of his Gospel. Why would he attempt to make them sound so similar if he didn’t consider that he was writing scripture? Of course that is speculation, but what is not speculation is that Peter regarded the writings of Paul as scripture.
2 Peter 3:14-16 (emphasis mine).
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ANNE_2
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The Apostles considered their writings (letters) to be the Word that God gave to them to spread. These are contained in the New Testament.
For easy reading (and has an Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat) I recommend: “Catholicism for Dummies” by Fathers Tragilio and Brighenti.
This book includes but is not limited to the history behind the Bible, interpretation of text, as revelation, lost books, triva, etc.
For easy reading (and has an Imprimatur and Nihil Obstat) I recommend: “Catholicism for Dummies” by Fathers Tragilio and Brighenti.
This book includes but is not limited to the history behind the Bible, interpretation of text, as revelation, lost books, triva, etc.
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rbarcia
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Peter considered Paul’s letters as scriptures.
2 Peter 3:15-16
15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
The Book of Revelation claims inspiration of itself.
Rev 1
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.
2 Peter 3:15-16
15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
The Book of Revelation claims inspiration of itself.
Rev 1
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.
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Publisher
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No…we don’t know who wrote the gospels…they are not signed…tradition holds that the names attached to the gospels were written by then…but no critical biblical scholar today confirms their authorship…they were written anonymously.
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Big_Dummy
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A T Robertson in his Redating the NT makes such claims that they were written by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
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Sufjon
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Correct Publisher. Most scholars generally agree that the canonical gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) were written starting around 70 CE and finished by about 90 CE (all of which were after the Apostles were dead). The earliest copy of any of them known to exist is a small fragment from John that was written about 150 CE. The earliest gospel, is non-canonical and generally not accepted by mainstream Christianity. It is the Gospel of Thomas.
Your friend,
Sufjon
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Sufjon
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NewsTheMan
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:banghead: Yes, we do know who wrote the Gospels. To say that “no critical biblical scholar today confirms their authorship” is either ignorant or wildly misleading and - to put it simply - a big fat lie.
Hi there. Yes, the Church has infallibly declared that Matthew wrote Matthew and Mark wrote Mark, etc. Otherwise, it wouldn’t appear in your Bible
Ignore Publisher, who has fell into the trap that because one or two scholars get attention for their unorthodox views what they say is actually (excuse the pun) gospel
Here are some things to consider:
The Council of Trent
The Fourth Session
DECREE CONCERNING THE CANONICAL SCRIPTURES
The sacred and holy, ecumenical, and general Synod of Trent,–lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost, the Same three legates of the Apostolic Sec presiding therein,–keeping this [Page 18] always in view, that, errors being removed, the purity itself of the Gospel be preserved in the Church; which (Gospel), before promised through the prophets in the holy Scriptures, our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, first promulgated with His own mouth, and then commanded to be preached by His Apostles to every creature, as the fountain of all, both saving truth, and moral discipline; and seeing clearly that this truth and discipline are contained in the written books, and the unwritten traditions which, received by the Apostles from the mouth of Christ himself, or from the Apostles themselves, the Holy Ghost dictating, have come down even unto us, transmitted as it were from hand to hand; (the Synod) following the examples of the orthodox Fathers, receives and venerates with an equal affection of piety, and reverence, all the books both of the Old and of the New Testament–seeing that one God is the author of both --as also the said traditions, as well those appertaining to faith as to morals, as having been dictated, either by Christ’s own word of mouth, or by the Holy Ghost, and preserved in the Catholic Church by a continuous succession. And it has thought it meet that a list of the sacred books be inserted in this decree, lest a doubt may arise in any one’s mind, which are the books that are received by this Synod. They are as set down here below: of the Old Testament: the five books of Moses, to wit, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Josue, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, the first book of Esdras, and the second which is entitled Nehemias; Tobias, Judith, Esther, Job, the Davidical Psalter, consisting of a hundred and fifty psalms; the Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Canticle of Canticles, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Isaias, Jeremias, with Baruch; Ezechiel, Daniel; the twelve minor prophets, to wit, Osee, Joel, Amos, Abdias, Jonas, Micheas, Nahum, Habacuc, Sophonias, Aggaeus, Zacharias, Malachias; two books of the Machabees, the first and the second. Of the New Testament: the four Gospels, according [Page 19] to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John; the Acts of the Apostles written by Luke the Evangelist; fourteen epistles of Paul the apostle, (one) to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, (one) to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, two to Timothy, (one) to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two of Peter the apostle, three of John the apostle, one of the apostle James, one of Jude the apostle, and the Apocalypse of John the apostle. But if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition; and knowingly and deliberately contemn the traditions aforesaid; let him be anathema. Let all, therefore, understand, in what order, and in what manner, the said Synod, after having laid the foundation of the Confession of faith, will proceed, and what testimonies and authorities it will mainly use in confirming dogmas, and in restoring morals in the Church.
Here is a nice article explaining Gospel authorship
Here is a PDF Booklet that goes through the Gospel authorship
Here is a lecture series of some kind
Here are a few posts of interest (1) and (2).
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NewsTheMan
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Publisher is incorrect on this.
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PiousTemplar
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They would know from what area the scriptures come from. The Apostles went to different areas and they had to bring all the Scriptures into one book.
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Publisher
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Paul’s writings are the first to be gathered together in the communities he founded.
Mark was written most likely after 55CE…Matthew followed using Mark and another source (“Q”) twenty years later…Luke wrote his shortly after Matthew and John was written at the end or beginning of the 1st century.
“Peter” in one of the letters ascribed to him claimed Paul’s letters as scripture toward the end of the 1st century…Peter’s letters were written not by Peter but by someone claiming to be Peter…they were written long after Peter’s death.
The books which came to be our NT were written in various locations by various authors…none of which were the original apostles. Paul is the only identifiable author…all the rest are “pseudenomomous” or “anonymous”…tradition early on in the second century…long after the gospels and letters were penned “named” the authors…but it is pious tradition…not fact…and one usually embraced by very “conservative” religious people…modern biblical scholarship simply does not affirm authorship…
Mark was written most likely after 55CE…Matthew followed using Mark and another source (“Q”) twenty years later…Luke wrote his shortly after Matthew and John was written at the end or beginning of the 1st century.
“Peter” in one of the letters ascribed to him claimed Paul’s letters as scripture toward the end of the 1st century…Peter’s letters were written not by Peter but by someone claiming to be Peter…they were written long after Peter’s death.
The books which came to be our NT were written in various locations by various authors…none of which were the original apostles. Paul is the only identifiable author…all the rest are “pseudenomomous” or “anonymous”…tradition early on in the second century…long after the gospels and letters were penned “named” the authors…but it is pious tradition…not fact…and one usually embraced by very “conservative” religious people…modern biblical scholarship simply does not affirm authorship…
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NewsTheMan
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Snip. Q is hardly a fact, it’s based on one idea and from the interviews I’ve heard with a few Biblical scholars on Catholic Answers it’s not taken seriously by many people any longer outside of (I believe) ‘German’ biblical schools.
Also, the appeal to “modern biblical scholarship” is laughable. Firstly, because modern biblical scholarship includes many who believe in the traditional and correct view that the Church teaches. Secondly, modern philosophical scholarship today sees the belief in God as untrue. Does that make it untrue? No. Does that mean everybody believes God isn’t real? No. Academia follows trends, and often there are bandwagon jumpers such that statements like “modern scholars don’t take xyz seriously” seems legitimate. This phase too, shall pass, as did all the other phases in academia.
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schaick
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Check this outPaul citing Luke:
1 Timothy 5:18For the Scripture says, “Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain,”[a] and “The worker deserves his wages.”**
Footnotes:
[a]1 Timothy 5:18 Deut. 25:4
1 Timothy 5:18 Luke 10:7**
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schaick
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So do you believe the author is lying about who he is?!
1 Timothy 1
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,
2 To Timothy my true son in the faith:
Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
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Publisher
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As many biblical scholars have pointed out…writing under the name of a revered figure was not considered plagerism…but was a fairly common vehicle in the Roman world.
The writers of the pastorals believed they were writing “for Paul” since their dates are well after he was killed.
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