Did the Catholic Church change its teaching on abortion?

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I have some discussion with some Pro-Choice people who claimed that the Catholic Church did at one time allow abortion in early pregnancy.

They site the following quote:

The Apostolic Constitutions (circa 380 CE) allowed abortion if it was done early enough in pregnancy. But it condemned abortion if the fetus was of human shape. “Thou shalt not slay the child by causing abortion, nor kill that which is begotten. For everything that is shaped, and his received a soul from God, if slain, it shall be avenged, as being unjustly destroyed.” 7:3:15 This document claimed to have been written by the apostles. However, it was actually written late in the 4th century CE at about the time that Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire and serious oppression of Paganism started.

Augustine (354-430 CE) accepted the Aristotelian Greek Pagan concept of “delayed ensoulment”. He wrote that a human soul cannot live in an unformed body. 3 Thus, early in pregnancy, an abortion is not murder because no soul is destroyed (or, more accurately, only a vegetable or animal soul is terminated).

Pope Innocent III (1161-1216):
He determined that a monk who had arranged for his lover to have an abortion was not guilty of murder if the fetus was not “animated” at the time.
Early in the 13th century, he stated that the soul enters the body of the fetus at the time of “quickening” - when the woman first feels movement of the fetus. Before that time, abortion was a less serious sin, because it terminated only potential human person, not an actual human person.
Pope Sixtus V (1588) issued a Papal bull “Effraenatam” which threatened those who carried out abortions at any stage of gestation with excommunication and the death penalty.
Pope Gregory XIV (1591) revoked the previous Papal bull and reinstated the “quickening” test, which he determined happened 116 days into pregnancy (16½ weeks).
Pope Pius IX (1869) dropped the distinction between the “fetus animatus” and “fetus inanimatus.” The soul was believed to have entered the pre-embryo at conception.
Leo XIII (1878-1903):
He Issued a decree in 1884 that prohibited craniotomies. This is an unusual form of abortion used under crisis situations late in pregnancy. It is occasionally needed to save the life of the pregnant woman.
He issued a second degree in 1886 that prohibited all procedures that directly killed the fetus, even if done to save the woman’s life.

I am not convince with the arguments though since the majority of the Early Church Fathers condemned abortion.
 
Can your pro-choice friends tell me how the folks in 380 knew when the baby looked like a baby? Were they using 1/2-D ultrasounds?
From the Didache, Ch 2 which predates the Constitutions:
you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is born
 
LOL, they aren’t my friends. Anyone who supports death is not a friend of mine.
 
I have some discussion with some Pro-Choice people who claimed that the Catholic Church did at one time allow abortion in early pregnancy.

They site the following quote:

The Apostolic Constitutions (circa 380 CE) allowed abortion if it was done early enough in pregnancy. But it condemned abortion if the fetus was of human shape. “Thou shalt not slay the child by causing abortion, nor kill that which is begotten. For everything that is shaped, and his received a soul from God, if slain, it shall be avenged, as being unjustly destroyed.” 7:3:15 This document claimed to have been written by the apostles. However, it was actually written late in the 4th century CE at about the time that Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire and serious oppression of Paganism started.

Augustine (354-430 CE) accepted the Aristotelian Greek Pagan concept of “delayed ensoulment”. He wrote that a human soul cannot live in an unformed body. 3 Thus, early in pregnancy, an abortion is not murder because no soul is destroyed (or, more accurately, only a vegetable or animal soul is terminated).

Pope Innocent III (1161-1216):
He determined that a monk who had arranged for his lover to have an abortion was not guilty of murder if the fetus was not “animated” at the time.
Early in the 13th century, he stated that the soul enters the body of the fetus at the time of “quickening” - when the woman first feels movement of the fetus. Before that time, abortion was a less serious sin, because it terminated only potential human person, not an actual human person.
Pope Sixtus V (1588) issued a Papal bull “Effraenatam” which threatened those who carried out abortions at any stage of gestation with excommunication and the death penalty.
Pope Gregory XIV (1591) revoked the previous Papal bull and reinstated the “quickening” test, which he determined happened 116 days into pregnancy (16½ weeks).
Pope Pius IX (1869) dropped the distinction between the “fetus animatus” and “fetus inanimatus.” The soul was believed to have entered the pre-embryo at conception.
Leo XIII (1878-1903):
He Issued a decree in 1884 that prohibited craniotomies. This is an unusual form of abortion used under crisis situations late in pregnancy. It is occasionally needed to save the life of the pregnant woman.
He issued a second degree in 1886 that prohibited all procedures that directly killed the fetus, even if done to save the woman’s life.

I am not convince with the arguments though since the majority of the Early Church Fathers condemned abortion.
it seems this person quotes summaries of a pro choice website instead of taking what these guys actually said
 
Yup, they are “quote mining.” Taking the quotes out of context.
so the next itme you talk to this person ask him to put the qoutes in context and get back to them.

someone on a message board started a thread that talked about how the bible supports abortion, and I just laughed, he was an atheist though.
 
so the next itme you talk to this person ask him to put the qoutes in context and get back to them.

someone on a message board started a thread that talked about how the bible supports abortion, and I just laughed, he was an atheist though.
I did. It was a discussion I have in Youtube.

youtube.com/watch?v=sski0eebAAo

Fr. Barron commentary on Abortion Numbers in NYC. Youtube user wolfram is the one who “quote mine” the Apostolic Constitution of 380 A.D. He did left out a message which I replied.
 
I have some discussion with some Pro-Choice people who claimed that the Catholic Church did at one time allow abortion in early pregnancy.

They site the following quote:

The Apostolic Constitutions (circa 380 CE) allowed abortion if it was done early enough in pregnancy. But it condemned abortion if the fetus was of human shape. “Thou shalt not slay the child by causing abortion, nor kill that which is begotten. For everything that is shaped, and his received a soul from God, if slain, it shall be avenged, as being unjustly destroyed.” 7:3:15 This document claimed to have been written by the apostles. However, it was actually written late in the 4th century CE at about the time that Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire and serious oppression of Paganism started.

Augustine (354-430 CE) accepted the Aristotelian Greek Pagan concept of “delayed ensoulment”. He wrote that a human soul cannot live in an unformed body. 3 Thus, early in pregnancy, an abortion is not murder because no soul is destroyed (or, more accurately, only a vegetable or animal soul is terminated).

Pope Innocent III (1161-1216):
He determined that a monk who had arranged for his lover to have an abortion was not guilty of murder if the fetus was not “animated” at the time.
Early in the 13th century, he stated that the soul enters the body of the fetus at the time of “quickening” - when the woman first feels movement of the fetus. Before that time, abortion was a less serious sin, because it terminated only potential human person, not an actual human person.
Pope Sixtus V (1588) issued a Papal bull “Effraenatam” which threatened those who carried out abortions at any stage of gestation with excommunication and the death penalty.
Pope Gregory XIV (1591) revoked the previous Papal bull and reinstated the “quickening” test, which he determined happened 116 days into pregnancy (16½ weeks).
Pope Pius IX (1869) dropped the distinction between the “fetus animatus” and “fetus inanimatus.” The soul was believed to have entered the pre-embryo at conception.
Leo XIII (1878-1903):
He Issued a decree in 1884 that prohibited craniotomies. This is an unusual form of abortion used under crisis situations late in pregnancy. It is occasionally needed to save the life of the pregnant woman.
He issued a second degree in 1886 that prohibited all procedures that directly killed the fetus, even if done to save the woman’s life.

I am not convince with the arguments though since the majority of the Early Church Fathers condemned abortion.
Absolutely not!! The Church has always been against abortion.

Check The Didache (Written around 70AD to 100AD). This could be construed as an early catechism.

Chapter 2. The Second Commandment: Grave Sin Forbidden. And the second commandment of the Teaching; You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is born. You shall not covet the things of your neighbor, you shall not swear, you shall not bear false witness, you shall not speak evil, you shall bear no grudge. You shall not be double-minded nor double-tongued, for to be double-tongued is a snare of death. Your speech shall not be false, nor empty, but fulfilled by deed. You shall not be covetous, nor rapacious, nor a hypocrite, nor evil disposed, nor haughty. You shall not take evil counsel against your neighbor. You shall not hate any man; but some you shall reprove, and concerning some you shall pray, and some you shall love more than your own life.
 
Absolutely not!! The Church has always been against abortion.

Check The Didache (Written around 70AD to 100AD). This could be construed as an early catechism.

Chapter 2. The Second Commandment: Grave Sin Forbidden. And the second commandment of the Teaching; You shall not commit murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not commit pederasty, you shall not commit fornication, you shall not steal, you shall not practice magic, you shall not practice witchcraft, you shall not murder a child by abortion nor kill that which is born. You shall not covet the things of your neighbor, you shall not swear, you shall not bear false witness, you shall not speak evil, you shall bear no grudge. You shall not be double-minded nor double-tongued, for to be double-tongued is a snare of death. Your speech shall not be false, nor empty, but fulfilled by deed. You shall not be covetous, nor rapacious, nor a hypocrite, nor evil disposed, nor haughty. You shall not take evil counsel against your neighbor. You shall not hate any man; but some you shall reprove, and concerning some you shall pray, and some you shall love more than your own life.
How is Exodus 21:22-23 taken to mean as somehow sanctioning abortion by some in the pro-abortion camp to be deflected?
,
 
May I suggest the CCC paragraph 2271.

Then it’s your source against their source.
 
This is a common and sleazy accusation against the Church. Look closer and you will NOT find a statement that the early abortion is not SINFUL. You might find questions about when the sin of abortion becomes murder, but that is only due to the primitive science of the day. Ancients thought that the man essentially planted a seed in the fertile soil of the woman’s womb. So for them, it was an interesting question as to when the mere ‘seed’ became a person with a soul.

But the whole debate is moot because the ancient church considered BOTH murder AND contraception to be gravely sinful. Straining to demonstrate that theologians once misidentified the line between contraception and abortion simply does NOT prove that the church ever condoned abortion.

Furthermore, if you explained cell biology, sperm and egg concepts clearly to any of those ancient theologians it would take them about half a second to recognize where the line between contraception and abortion/murder lies. They just didn’t have the science back then.
 
The Church was actually quite well known for opposing abortion in the Roman Empire from its earliest days.
 
Hi
I don’t know how accurate it was, but I remember reading that LONG ago, it was considered a worse sin to have an abortion after the “quickening” (feeling the baby move for the first time).
 
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